Shin Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 220 is a good drafting TC. Azel!Lana>Claud!Lana Azel!Lana gives her meh offence instead of bleh offence too and ridicolus sheningans with fala holy blood Considering than Lana will never fight ever, there's no point in sticking Aideen with Azel. The whole point of Claude!Lana is that you get the Rescue Staff straight away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yojinbo Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 (edited) 270 turns in 12 chapters -> 22.5 turns per chapter. Edit: 220 turns would equate to around ~18 turns per chapter. Edited March 13, 2015 by Yojinbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moishe Oofnik Posted March 13, 2015 Author Share Posted March 13, 2015 So lowering efficiency to 220 I trust martys judgement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Considering that a good few chapters can be done pretty quickly, 220 isn't that unreasonable. The prologue only takes about 11 and 8 and 9 can be done in a similar amount of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartyTheDemonSlayer Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 In absolute LTC chapters 8, 9, 10, and endgame are all faster than the prologue I believe (rescue staff/dancer abuse is ridiculous.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zasplach Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 220 turns definitely makes efficiency a lot more important. Rescue staff shenanigans and pairings that are efficient definitely more desirable. Don't think I could do 220 turns without trying. You definitely need to assume leg rings on Celice in that situation. Heck, can how viable are pairings like Levin-Talito very viable with that few turns? Don't they need to stand next to each other for like 45ish turns? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yojinbo Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Yeah, it kind of begs the question whether the list should take the amount of time certain pairings require into the equation. Pretty sure most pairings that involve either Tiltyu or Briggid actually cost turns in gen 1 [except Claude x Tiltyu] ... would that have a negative impact on Arthur's and Tinny's placing? I mean by that logic one could argue that Amid > Arthur because afaik Claude!Arthur is the only possible iteration of Arthur that doesn't cost turns. Amid doesn't cost any turns and is better than Claude!Arthur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zasplach Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 (edited) Why is buttface better than Claude!Arthur? Arthur gets a horse and has better growths all the way across the board. Continue isn't that much better than wrath. Amid is a pretty lousy sub, stinky promotion, only continue. Linda is the only reason not to pair Talitio. But to your point I don't think emphasizing efficiency down the board does the second generation justice. 220 turns is a pretty fast play through. Edited March 13, 2015 by Zasplach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliban of Sycorax Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Maybe then we can assume ~220-245 turns. Not everyone plays Draft efficiency, and while Drafts are extremely useful for looking at lists, we also have to account that Drafts have specific units used, so we're looking at less pair competition. In a regular tier list we are looking at everyone being recruited and used at least a little bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Maybe then we can assume ~220-245 turns. Not everyone plays Draft efficiency, and while Drafts are extremely useful for looking at lists, we also have to account that Drafts have specific units used, so we're looking at less pair competition. In a regular tier list we are looking at everyone being recruited and used at least a little bit. Drafts have worse turncounts precisely because you can't use everyone. The biggest difference is that Sigurd is a lot better (and Celice by proxy), but everyone else is not significantly better off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zasplach Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Drafts have worse turncounts precisely because you can't use everyone. The biggest difference is that Sigurd is a lot better (and Celice by proxy), but everyone else is not significantly better off. Yeah, but when you're playing draft, the whole point is low turn count; I don't believe actually losing units or leveling them is of any importance. The game gives you the best ranking for 399 turns, which is obviously very generous, as opposed to the experience rating which is stingy. I think a standard of 270-300 turns is pretty fair, fast enough to give the cavalry the lead they deserve, but paced enough to allow for all pairings, allow you to recruit all units, not just blowing through Altenna and the lot, and allowing units to do their jobs, like Dew distributing money to the group ect.. Obviously the game can be beat in a lot fewer turns, hell Marty is proving you can beat it in a lot fewer with no level ups, kudos again by-the-way, but proving how much better the players are than the AI, doesn't really give an accurate representation of some charter's potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 The whole point of an efficiency run is a low turn count too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Efficiency doesn't totally focus on low turn counts, but LTC contributions should be an aspect to consider in the case of certain pairings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yojinbo Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Imo the assumed turn count for the tier list should be high enough to allow obtaining the Silver Sword, Hero Axe and Ichival, pair up Briggid and Tiltyu with somebody and recruiting Faval, Hannibal and Altenna without overstepping the limit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 (edited) i might play through the game getting all those things quickly over a few days next week since I have it off work since our office is remodeling, and just see what the TC comes to be. I probably play slightly faster turnwise than the average player, so maybe add a turn for every 10 I take or something to get a general idea? Any requests for pairings that people want a second opinion on? Draft average sitting around 270 is probably inflated by the earlier drafts that took like 400 turns. I think if I went and replayed all my drafts they'd float from 200-210 now. Edited March 14, 2015 by General Horace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartyTheDemonSlayer Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Maybe you should try out Levin x Tilityu just to see how much pairing them costs when you're playing at a brisk pace. That'll be important for ranking Levin!Arthur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yojinbo Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 (edited) Can you try to have Azel get the kill on Jacobans in Ch.3? Being able to pass down the Thunder Sword and Magic Ring would probably be a strong point in favor of those that argue Azel!Delmud to be high tier. I'm not sure if people aren't just overhyping the Azel x Lachesis pairing right now. I've done it myself and think Azel!Delmud is pretty good but high tier seems like a bit of a stretch to me. I don't think he's better than Midir!Lester or Jamka!Lester. So I guess this is me requestion AzelxLachesis with Azel passing down a Thunder Sword and a Magic Ring. Edited March 14, 2015 by Yojinbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moishe Oofnik Posted March 14, 2015 Author Share Posted March 14, 2015 (edited) Effeicency is a tier list based on contributing in a certin (mostly short) amount of turns and then rating the characters on there utility offence and opportunity lost so shall i change it too 220~245 turn count?? Jamka lester wants that skill ring delmud has no flaws and the high hit low weight of swords upsets his meh skill Azel!Delmud is high tier Azel and Levin Have the same love growth its just that levin has something better to do then just not moving we are also factoing each kid by his performance in that generation now how he costed turns in the previous generation (lexXtiltyu would be lower) Edited March 14, 2015 by TTPK_Tal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psych Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 i might play through the game getting all those things quickly over a few days next week since I have it off work since our office is remodeling, and just see what the TC comes to be. I probably play slightly faster turnwise than the average player, so maybe add a turn for every 10 I take or something to get a general idea? Any requests for pairings that people want a second opinion on? Draft average sitting around 270 is probably inflated by the earlier drafts that took like 400 turns. I think if I went and replayed all my drafts they'd float from 200-210 now. I'd like to see Claude Lana, and maybe Lex Sylvia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zasplach Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Sounds like you have: Levin-Talito Azel-Lachesis Lex-Sylvia I'd do Midir-Adean, just to see a decent Lester vs. Delmud, but there's a request for Claude-Adean I'd say Claude-Fury, but it will slow you down, but we have her kids rated separately, so it probably need to be done. And Briggid/Arya don't really care, so something easy like, Holyn-Arya or Jamke-Arya, all the fun skills or Arya-Noishe And Briggid, who care, I think Beowulf is probably best for the skills and growths, but it doesn't really matter. No matter the pairing, it will slow you down, minus Midir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Can you try to have Azel get the kill on Jacobans in Ch.3? Being able to pass down the Thunder Sword and Magic Ring would probably be a strong point in favor of those that argue Azel!Delmud to be high tier. I'm not sure if people aren't just overhyping the Azel x Lachesis pairing right now. I've done it myself and think Azel!Delmud is pretty good but high tier seems like a bit of a stretch to me. I don't think he's better than Midir!Lester or Jamka!Lester. So I guess this is me requestion AzelxLachesis with Azel passing down a Thunder Sword and a Magic Ring. Azel can just buy the thunder sword when he promotes. i'll probably just do generic pairings for Briggid, Fury and Ayra, and all the suggested ones above. (Azel/Lachesis, Levin/Tiltyu, Claude/Lana, Lex/Sylvia) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrySun Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 (edited) Leif is easily the strongest unit in 2nd generation, if only for the fact that Master Knight is the most broken class out of all and he's the only one you get. Seliph can try to become the next Sigurd, but Leif is beyond Sigurd at this point. And Azel isn't terrible in first gen. If he manages to promote, his horse can really be quite useful. Sadly it's not easy bringing him to promotion though.. Edited March 14, 2015 by GrySun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yojinbo Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Oh god I haven't bothered with Azel in such a long time I didn't even remember he could use Swords after promotion -.- That probably explains why I'm always so sceptical about Azel!Delmud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momogeek2141 Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 Leif is easily the strongest unit in 2nd generation, if only for the fact that Master Knight is the most broken class out of all and he's the only one you get. Seliph can try to become the next Sigurd, but Leif is beyond Sigurd at this point. And Azel isn't terrible in first gen. If he manages to promote, his horse can really be quite useful. Sadly it's not easy bringing him to promotion though.. The reason Azel is ranked so low is because of the effort it takes him to promote. He uses the worst kind of magic as a specialty, and is a 5 mov unit.Leaf doesn't have pursuit before he promotes, and getting him a pursuit ring is expensive to Ethlin. Celice gains almost full access to all the important rings. Remember, we're talking 220-245 turns here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psych Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 Azel can just buy the thunder sword when he promotes. i'll probably just do generic pairings for Briggid, Fury and Ayra, and all the suggested ones above. (Azel/Lachesis, Levin/Tiltyu, Claude/Lana, Lex/Sylvia) I think we were still debating how useful Holyn Patty is, but other than that those look good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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