NewThreadTime FE4 Gen1+Gen2 Tier Lists

[MacLovin]

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=32646

we shouldn't be counting rtu scores here, right?

[Yojinbo]

No but a lot of it looks pretty reasonable. It's not a bad place to start tbqh.

[General Horace]

some units like Fury and Fee are rated laughably high, and some other units like Midir are rated pretty low. It's also almost three years old, so opinions in general have changed a lot.

[Yojinbo]

Yeah but I assume that inheritance was a factor for these ratings so I'm not surprised. Some people probably rated Fury high for being Fee's and Sety's mother, not that I necessarily agree with that logic.

What do you people think of this list for gen 1:

[spoiler=List]Sigurd Tier:

Sigurd

Top Tier:

Sylvia

High Tier:

Ethlin

Lex

Cuan

Lachesis

Levin

High-Mid:

Dew

Finn

Aideen

Fury

Midir

Mid:

Noish

Beowulf

Holyn

Aira

Low-Mid:

Jamka

Alec

Briggid

Low:

Deidre / Claude

Azel

Tiltyu

Ardan

Probably not perfect but I think most units are in the right tier?

Edited March 16, 2015 by Yojinbo

[Psych]

I would put Ethlin where Lachesis is. She is still stuck at C staves, which is basically Heal and Return. I'd also move Lachesis down to below Fury. Unless we're doing an Aideen pairing to get the Rescue staff, she doesn't have as much use compared to Leaf. She's also a foot unit with a lower staff rank than Aideen, and not great at combat. I guess she's still useful after promo and has Charisma, but I don't think she's good enough for High. I feel like Ayra could stand to be above Noish, but that's up for debate on how fast we're going/how much we need Noish.

[Yojinbo]

Ethlin gives Cuan and Sigurd access to lover/sibling crits and Return is a huge deal in Ch.2 and Ch.3.

[General Horace]

I'm of the opinion of Fin >> Lex (and everyone below Lex except Cuan) and Midir > Fury. Fin has amazing offence in Chapter 1 with the steel lance (ORKO's pretty much every non boss) and has the best offence on the entire team when he gets the hero lance in chapter 2. I have no issues promoting him for chapter 3, so he could be a force there too, although I usually don't have him do a lot just because he gains so little exp.

Midir vs Fury could be debateable though I guess. If Fury's getting paired with not Levin though, she can't really fly ahead of everyone in chapter 4 and be good in her best chapter.

I also agree on what Psych said on Lachesis, Master knight is cool and all, but if Lachesis promoted to say, Paladin, would it make her any worse?

I think Ethlin is good where she is though, she gives two of the best units +20% crit (and gives Cuan +10 hit/avoid) and gets +20 hit/avoid when around said units, in addition to being your only real useful healer for the prologue, half of chapter 1, and pretty much all of chapter 2 (you still have to rush the first two/three castles if you want the bargain and knight ring, so Aideen can't heal if she wants to) and there's only one B Rank staff around for a majority of her existance anyway, and while it would be good if she had B staves, it's not a huge knock on her performance.

Edited March 17, 2015 by General Horace

[Yojinbo]

Hmmm, I'd probably say Midir > Fury though I don't have any numbers to back it up. I don't think it's needed though, Midir is around for like twice as long, has a Horse and good offense on player phase. Fury is available from Ch.3 onward where she is reliable and solid I guess? Her flying utility is useful and a bit underrated, I find it helpful to help out Briggid & co in Ch.3 and to take out the meteo mages in Ch.5.

Fin vs Lex is something worth looking into but I'd say Lex has a slight upper hand simply because he kinda dominates opponents as soon as he gets the Hero Axe. Neither Fin nor Lex are doing too hot in the Prologue and Fin is better in Ch.1. But I think from Ch.1 onward Lex starts to shine and he's probably not far behid Fin in Ch.2 and Ch.3. I guess Ch.4 isn't that kind to Lex but he still should be doing well enough and he's definitely doing fine in Ch.5. I'd say consistently being strong or very strong from Ch.2 to Ch.5 is worth more than two outstanding chapters and a decent one. It's probably not a big difference though. Like, Lex on the bottom of high tier and Fin on top of low mid or something.

[General Horace]

I'm of the opinion that the chapters Fin are better in (Ch 1/2) he's much much better than the rest of your team (seriously his offence is only matched by Sigurd) than Lex is in the later chapters (although he still is good in chapter 2, he doesn't ORKO hardly any enemies (unless he actually hits mercs or the beowulf sword knights which isn't much better odds than some chump like Noish proc'ing critical and instagibbing them). Fin's the only unit bar Midir proc'ing critical or charge with the killer bow or Cuan proc'ing continue with the Silver Lance that can kill the knights up at Mackily (not even max strength Sigurd kills them) and is probably the best unit at dealing with the enemies near the sleep staff castle. Building kills on the Hero Lance is pretty useful too for gen 2, and kills on the hero axe are well, kind of wasted.

Sure, Lex kills things pretty well when Fin leaves, but it's not something that's actually that useful. He's not particularly good in chapter 4 (he can knock out the pegasus squad on the way to the first castle and some mages) but he's awful against Lamia's squad and the second Pegasus squad has Javelins so he can't counter them (not that they'd attack Lex anyway). He's also not good in chapter 5 past killing the Axe goons, but literally ever unit on your team can probably kill them by this point.

Other than existing in chapter 4-5, what advantages does Lex actually have over Fin other than Elite?

Edited March 17, 2015 by General Horace

[Psych]

Finn has WTD for all of Prologue and 1, and yeah he has Pursuit and Prayer, but he still uses Lances which aren't Swords. I think he's better than the Social Knights, but I wouldn't say he's as good as Lex. Lex can just get ahead faster with Elite, and then just ends up staying ahead. Finn kind of needs the Hero Lance before I start being impressed with his combat whereas Lex has it a chapter earlier with the Hero Axe.

I also think Fury > Midir. Midir isn't really killing anyone unless we give him the Killer Bow and he gets lucky with Charge or a crit. Fury doesn't really have that problem, plus she has access to Swords, and Staves on promo. Plus she makes a lot better use of the Hero Lance than Finn does, so it's likely we could give it to her. She can also do a lot more in 3, 4, and 5 than Midir can hope to do due to terrain. For all intents and purposes Fury won't be doing a lot in 2. I mean, I guess we could Return Levin and then Warp him to Mackily but that seems unlikely. And while Midir might be pretty good/ok in Prologue/1/2, but 3 he's starting to be unimpressive compared to others, and they're starting to promote and push out his range advantage and will be able to do more during Enemy Phase.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Psych

[General Horace]

Finn has WTD for all of Prologue and 1, and yeah he has Pursuit and Prayer, but he still uses Lances which aren't axes. I think he's better than the Social Knights, but I wouldn't say he's as good as Lex. Lex can just get ahead faster with Elite, and then just ends up staying ahead. Finn kind of needs the Hero Lance before I start being impressed with his combat whereas Lex has it a chapter earlier with the Hero Axe.

I also think Fury > Midir. Midir isn't really killing anyone unless we give him the Killer Bow and he gets lucky with Charge or a crit. Fury doesn't really have that problem, plus she has access to Swords, and Staves on promo. Plus she makes a lot better use of the Hero Lance than Finn does, so it's likely we could give it to her. She can also do a lot more in 3, 4, and 5 than Midir can hope to do due to terrain. For all intents and purposes Fury won't be doing a lot in 2. I mean, I guess we could Return Levin and then Warp him to Mackily but that seems unlikely. And while Midir might be pretty good/ok in Prologue/1/2, but 3 he's starting to be unimpressive compared to others, and they're starting to promote and push out his range advantage and will be able to do more during Enemy Phase.

Lex only has the hero axe for a castle more than Fin has his lance. He's not touching any enemies in chapter 1 with it.

I suppose if you're not comfortable with abusing prayer in chapter 1 (which really isn't hard) Fin is pretty mediocre, but you can't say Lex is better, even if you deny Fin using Prayer or Cuan's steel lance.

Lex's combat isn't anywhere near Fin's is with their hero weapons either. Lex isn't killing armours or anything with a sword, which is a good chunk of chapter 2, although he does put a good hurt on armours.

Same deal with Midir. Why wouldn't you give him the killer bow? Jamka kills stuff fine without it. Fury's not getting the Hero Lance until Fin leaves in Chapter 3, and I agree, she does make good use of it in chapter 4. Fury's staff use is pretty much nonexistant though, lets be real. It's a waste of money to give her anything other than a live or relive staff. Like I said earlier though, if you pairing Fury with someone other than Levin, she can't even really fly ahead since she's glued to Noish or even as far back as Claude or something.

Edited March 17, 2015 by General Horace

[Psych]

If we give Finn Caun's Steel Lance, what is Cuan using? He doesn't get anything better than it till we can get the Silver in Chapter 2, and we'd probably rather get more mileage out of Cuan while we have him rather than Finn who might seem more use in 2nd gen.

Lex honestly does more against Armors than Finn, and he certainly has more use against all the lance cavalry. I would give Beowulf's squad to Finn, but that's not a lot.

Fury just feels like she does a lot more. We can give her the Cutter if we want or the Slayer, whereas Midir isn't going to have fun against armors any time soon, and doesn't exactly do a lot against huge groups of Cavalry either. Fury also has an Enemy Phase, is actually useful in Chapter 4, and if we want to pair her with Noish we can give her time in 2, 3, and 5 to hang out with him and 3 and 5 for Claude since she can fly over to him in 3 and won't really do a lot besides kill Fire Mages in 5. And healing is at least something over Midir.

[Zasplach]

As long as you give Finn the prologue speed ring and Cuan's steel lance, he doesn't need it, he does as much good with an iron lance, Finn is the 2nd Sigurd of the 1st half of part one. Really what Lex has over Finn is more availability, and he's one of the best fathers for at least 3 of the mothers, he's always a great dad with damned elite.

[BBM]

Horace, I don't think Finn ORKOs with the Iron Lance (I may be wrong) and if we suppose for a second that Finn deserves the Steel Lance more than Cuan, then I kind of have to wonder why you think Cuan is better than Finn? If Finn gets the Steel Lance then he's better than or almost as good Cuan for Chapter 1, and probably Chapter 2 once he gets the Hero Lance too, which is better than Silver Lance!Cuan. Cuan has more concrete durability and 1 more move but Finn has Prayer and better offence bc Pursuit, and then once he promotes he's better than Cuan in pretty much all aspects, so all Cuan has going for him is Prologue. If you give Finn the resources to be better than Lex, I think he's better than Cuan too.

[General Horace]

If we give Finn Caun's Steel Lance, what is Cuan using? He doesn't get anything better than it till we can get the Silver in Chapter 2, and we'd probably rather get more mileage out of Cuan while we have him rather than Finn who might seem more use in 2nd gen.

Lex honestly does more against Armors than Finn, and he certainly has more use against all the lance cavalry. I would give Beowulf's squad to Finn, but that's not a lot.

Fury just feels like she does a lot more. We can give her the Cutter if we want or the Slayer, whereas Midir isn't going to have fun against armors any time soon, and doesn't exactly do a lot against huge groups of Cavalry either. Fury also has an Enemy Phase, is actually useful in Chapter 4, and if we want to pair her with Noish we can give her time in 2, 3, and 5 to hang out with him and 3 and 5 for Claude since she can fly over to him in 3 and won't really do a lot besides kill Fire Mages in 5. And healing is at least something over Midir.

Cuan doesn't do anything better with the steel lance than an Iron lance, he still two shots everything unless we're using him to fight bosses for some reason.

How does Lex do more against Armours? Fin attacks 4 times with a weapon with one less might. Lex's strength isn't going to be significantly higher either, they have essentially the same base (since Fin gets +1 from his chapter 1 convo) and only 10 less growth, so even with a slight level lead, they're likely to have the same or Lex will have one more at best. They both kill the lance cavalry easily, but that's what, 6 enemies in the whole chapter? Most of the Lance knights early on are weakened by Lachesis's chumps anyway.

Honestly I'm starting to feel Fury > Midir now though, so i'll concede your second point.

@Zasplach, Fathering isn't taken into account for the lists. I think Lex is overrated as a father anyway, but it would be a more apt comparison.

@BBM I only suggested the iron lance deal because even with iron, he's better than Lex in chapter 1, even if it gimps him. He doesn't ORKO anything though, but there's zero reason to not give him Cuan's steel lance. He's honestly probably better than Cuan too, since Cuan is pretty much Lex with +1 movement when he exists anyway.

[Psych]

I am pretty sure he doesn't 1RKO cavarly, and I want to say he doesn't 1RKO bandits and brigands, but that I could be wrong on. Until he gets the Hero Lance or a Steel Lance he just doesn't have the damage behind it even though he doubles.

And I agree, why dump all these resources to make Finn better than Lex or potentially Cuan, when we could just dump them into Lex and Cuan? If we think Finn is as good as Sigurd, what does that make Cuan?

[Zasplach]

And I agree, why dump all these resources to make Finn better than Lex or potentially Cuan, when we could just dump them into Lex and Cuan? If we think Finn is as good as Sigurd, what does that make Cuan?

Tanky guy who can't reliably double. Cuan literally ORKO's any mook with an iron lance if he procs continue.

[General Horace]

What resources are you suggesting we give to Lex? Who uses the speed ring better than Fin? Who uses the Steel Lance better? It'd be like giving Lex's Hero Axe to Lachesis when she promotes because she uses it better.

[momogeek2141]

I agree with Horace that Fin is the best candidate for the resources. I disagree, however, that he has good performance in ch 1, where it's still axeland. Ch 2 however he picks up mostly bc of the Hero Lance.

Edited March 17, 2015 by momogeek2141

[Refa]

Fin can ORKO squads of enemies in 0% growths (obviously assuming Steel Lance + Speed Ring) more reliably than any non Sigurd unit, and may be able to do it at 1-2 range with Javelin with growths (it's hard to tell, because it relies on Speed procs and changes depending on what his HP/Def values are due to Prayer). Of course his performance is good.

EDIT Horace, Midir benefits more from the Speed Ring though. It's like, better for you the player to give it to Finn, but if you're actually using Midir than it helps him out more.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Refa

[Jedi]

Tanky guy who can't reliably double. Cuan literally ORKO's any mook with an iron lance if he procs continue.

Can someone remind me what the continue formula is?

[MartyTheDemonSlayer]

Attack speed + 20 %

[General Horace]

Fin can ORKO squads of enemies in 0% growths (obviously assuming Steel Lance + Speed Ring) more reliably than any non Sigurd unit, and may be able to do it at 1-2 range with Javelin with growths (it's hard to tell, because it relies on Speed procs and changes depending on what his HP/Def values are due to Prayer). Of course his performance is good.

EDIT Horace, Midir benefits more from the Speed Ring though. It's like, better for you the player to give it to Finn, but if you're actually using Midir than it helps him out more.

It's pretty much Midir proc'ing charge more vs enabling Fin to kill the archers in chapter 1. It's possible for him to be able to double them, but they have -1 to 0 AS, so Fin will need 13 speed to double them. He's not likely to be higher than level 5 at the start of the chapter though, so even 12 speed to double the slower ones at the start of the chapter is unlikely.

[Refa]

It's pretty much Midir proc'ing charge more vs enabling Fin to kill the archers in chapter 1. It's possible for him to be able to double them, but they have -1 to 0 AS, so Fin will need 13 speed to double them. He's not likely to be higher than level 5 at the start of the chapter though, so even 12 speed to double the slower ones at the start of the chapter is unlikely.

Well, it also helps for arena fights, since Midir has a tough time against some of the enemies (most of the dudes Finn wouldn't double ordinarily, he doesn't double anyways IIRC). I don't think it like, has a super big impact on either of them besides smoothing things out earlier on.

[General Horace]

Yeah, I didn't think of the arena. Although the killer bow is pretty much an insant win come providing Midir actually got stats (which sometimes doesn't happen...)