Someone should make a Thracia romhack that makes it easier

[feplus]

To be more precise, I'm saying

I do take issue with the game throwing the player into situations he had no foreknowledge of and / or [ii] that hold greater significance than reasonably expected.

The rest of your post is all over the place. Implicit teaching tools in design, like those in Mario and Mega Man, convey information about the game and its mechanics subtly and with player input. Hiding key characters and items in cryptic places, not informing the player of the significance of optional objectives, and surprising the player with major, unforeseeable shifts in resources and units is not conducive to good design. It does not teach. It does not strain critical thinking. It tests how well a player can guess and how well they can read a walkthrough.

Curious why you deny the obvious. FE5 is a more interesting and richer experience because it flaunts design convention. If you try and pretend its unfairness and sadism aren't real problems, the game loses much of its charm.

Edited March 21, 2015 by feplus

[dondon151]

The rest of your post is all over the place. Implicit teaching tools in design, like those in Mario and Mega Man, convey information about the game and its mechanics subtly and with player input. Hiding key characters and items in cryptic places, not informing the player of the significance of optional objectives, and surprising the player with major, unforeseeable shifts in resources and units is not conducive to good design. It does not teach. It does not strain critical thinking. It tests how well a player can guess and how well they can read a walkthrough.

critical thinking is an essential skill for forming educated guesses, lol. don't criticize me for being "all over the place" when you're barely coherent.

i cannot possibly understand how you think the game isn't doing enough to encourage the player to complete optional objectives when the optional objectives are either obvious or stated in the game script. if there is a village or a house, the game obviously wants the player to visit it. the game doesn't also have to say, "BY THE WAY MAKE SURE TO VISIT THIS HOUSE." villages and houses are implicit teaching tools; they look different from other tiles on the map, the player moves to them, oh something nice happened, better visit all the other villages and houses. simple as that.

and in the specific cases of the hero axe and pugi houses, if the player visits them with the wrong character, he gets a dialogue that specifically mentions halvan or orsin. this is, like, as explicit as the game can get without breaking immersion.

Curious why you deny the obvious. FE5 is a more interesting and richer experience because it flaunts design convention. If you try and pretend its unfairness and sadism aren't real problems, the game loses much of its charm.

i'm not denying the obvious. i told you what i think the biggest problems with FE5 are. the other problems that you listed are not problems.

Edited March 21, 2015 by dondon151

[Psych]

FE5 does mention Capturing, but not as obvious as you probably would like.

Othin:
“Well, are we done? Let’s hurry up and go kick their asses!”

Eyvel:
“Yes. But be careful. Although they are Imperial troops, the lower-ranking ones are civilians forced into the army. If you can, don’t kill them, take their weapons and let them escape. Understood?”

Othin:
“But we can hurt them until they submit to us, right? They’ll kill us if we don’t.”

Eyvel:
“Yes, but don’t overdo it, all right? Especially you, Othin.”

I looked for anything about Escaping, but didn't find anything.

FE4 does have some things about marriage and inheritance, but not a lot.

Villager:
“Children inherit certain traits from their parents. More often than not, boys inherit their father’s traits and girls inherit their mother’s.”

Most reinforcements in the game are mentioned by villagers, like the cavalry in Chapter 9.

[feplus]

when you're barely coherent.

Please stop using insults. If this conversation frustrates you and you do not feel you can remain civil, don't feel obligated to respond.

All Fire Emblem games feature secondary objectives. The game incentivizes the player to complete these objectives. Thracia consistently keeps the significance of secondary objectives enigmatic. Sometimes you get a vulnerary and sometimes you get the two best axes in the game; sometimes you get a sword and sometimes you get the best boss-killer in the game.

I'd wager your intimate familiarity with Thracia is clouding your judgment, so let's turn to some thought experiments:

1. Imagine you're playing a new Mario game and one of the earlygame levels includes ten silver coins. You are prompted at the beginning of the level with the following message: Please collect the silver coins. You go through the level and realize some of the coins are pretty tough to collect, so you pick up a few and move on.

Turns out that collecting all the silver coins gives you an item that makes the game's bosses, who are viciously difficult, infinitely easier. You cannot go back and collect this item. You were prompted to complete this collection objective but were not prompted about its significance, and are now disproportionately penalized for a small lapse in judgment.

This is the platforming equivalent to recruiting Asvel.

2. Imagine you're playing a new Final Fantasy game and are following the routine of talking to villagers in the opening town. A few give out small trinkets- potions, some basic weapons- but two houses instruct you to come back and visit with particular party members. These houses are out of the way and you figure the rewards are small or, failing that, won't be missed for long, so you do not complete this task, saving time and pressing on.

Turns out that performing this rote task in the opening town gives you access to the two best swords in the game. You cannot go back and complete this objective, and none of the swords you pick up later on come close in terms of combat potential. You were prompted to satisfy the villagers' request but were not prompted about its significance, and are now disproportionately penalized for a small lapse in judgment.

This is the jRPG equivalent to obtaining the Pugi / Brave axes.

3. Imagine you're playing the new Mass Effect game and come to a location with a large spaceship. This ship belongs to Admiral Hinks, a character you parted with a few hours back; apparently the ship has been taken over and his life is threatened inside. You want to help him, so your instinct is to kill the man guarding the ship and head inside as a rescue party.

Turns out that, for reasons unexplained, Shepherd refuses to enter the ship and save his comrade unless you paralyze the guard before an arbitrary amount of time passes and he becomes un-paralyzable. You were not prompted about any of this and lose out on re-recruiting Hinks and his assistant through no fault of your own.

This is the wRPG equivalent to recruiting Dagda and Tania.

No designer worth his salt would dare argue even a single one of these examples constitutes good design, yet Thracia is chock full of such moments. The first two are problematic because they cripple the player for not completing optional missions (that cannot be finished after they are missed), while the third is problematic because it hides assets behind a requirement so vague and arbitrary it screams Walkthrough Bait. Thracia commits both these design sins countless times over, and that's not even getting into the sadism of warp tiles, Cyas, and sudden resource / unit deprivation.

If you want to continue insisting FE5's design is not fundamentally flawed, I'd encourage you to explain why one or all of these thought experiments qualify as good design.

Edited March 21, 2015 by feplus

[dondon151]

Please stop using insults. If this conversation frustrates you and you do not feel you can remain civil, don't feel obligated to respond.

dude, don't be a pot calling the kettle black. i don't resort to underhanded measures unless i see my opponent doing the same.

i'm not impressed by your thought experiments. none of them seem problematic to me, and they're not even comparable to some of the cryptic hints given in classic, critically-acclaimed games. i've already given an example from SMRPG. the critical component of your arguments is that the player just simply ignores whatever hints the game provides, either explicit or implicit. i mean, if the player is too stupid or impatient or inattentive to play the game, of course he's going to have problems, and no game is going to accommodate that kind of player.

it really doesn't seem like many other users here are going to agree with you. my conclusion is that FE5 could do better with preventing the player from falling into super unfair traps that render the game unwinnable (such as not having enough door keys or accidentally leaving behind all of your units), but it handles optional events in the best possible way that strikes a balance between giving just enough information and preserving immersion. you can disagree further, but this off-topic digression has gone on for long enough.

Edited March 21, 2015 by dondon151

[eclipse]

I can't imagine the nuance of enemy AI is essential information unless you're LTCing.

I've never played FE5 (nor do I have time at the moment), but in any FE game, it helps to know how the enemy AI works. That way, I can decide how I want the computer to move, and tailor my actions so that my plan comes to fruition. The closest thing I do to LTC is drafting.

It does, but, as I mentioned in my previous post, it does not give the player information about their significance.

1. Leaf implies that he ought to escape last; okay, why? Do left-behind units get more fatigued? Do they lose their items? Do they lose experience? Does it cost turns? No, they get captured off-screen and lost until the last few maps.

2. It's suggested that Halvan and Othin visit a couple of particular houses; okay, why? Do they get vulneraries? Do they have special conversations with their family before embarking? Do they get modest stat bumps? No, they get the two best axes in the game, without which things become far more difficult.

3. Sety instructs his men to rescue the captives; okay, why? Do you get a special item? Do you unlock a special scene? Do all the captives need to escape, or just most of them, or just one? No, all the captives need to escape, and your reward is a gaiden map full of experience and an invaluable boss-killing mage.

I can't think of another Fire Emblem that hides essentials behind such cryptic requirements without informing the player.

1. That sounds ridiculously inconvenient, and it's something I'd like to know before I have Leif exit stage left.

2. Is the game still beatable without the axes? If it is, then they're not absolutely necessary, and a player should be able to figure out how to work around it (it's not like those guys disappeared off the face of the roster screen). If the game isn't beatable without those axes, then that's outright bad design. I think there'd be a much bigger uproar if the latter case was true.

3. If this was something like FE6, where the game ends prematurely if you miss a gaiden, I'd agree with you. This doesn't sound like something quite as drastic, so I wouldn't be as miffed if I missed it.

Thus, I agree with dondon here:

my conclusion is that FE5 could do better with preventing the player from falling into super unfair traps that render the game unwinnable (such as not having enough door keys or accidentally leaving behind all of your units), but it handles optional events in the best possible way that strikes a balance between giving just enough information and preserving immersion. you can disagree further, but this off-topic digression has gone on for long enough.

As to how to make the game "easier". . .if the unfair things mentioned above were explicitly explained, would the game's difficulty drop significantly?

[Lamia]

feplus, your examples aren't actual problems, as they only seem problematic because the player would choose to ignore them; it's their own fault if they miss out on something explained to them, and it seems whiny

going on that Mass Effect example, you ever play them at all? there are many points in the series where choosing not to act on commands or recommendations given to you could end up hurting your results, and when you learn after the fact, are you going to blame the game's design for your choice to ignore them?

3. Sety instructs his men to rescue the captives; okay, why? Do you get a special item? Do you unlock a special scene? Do all the captives need to escape, or just most of them, or just one? No, all the captives need to escape, and your reward is a gaiden map full of experience and an invaluable boss-killing mage.

so why wouldn't you rescue them, is it too difficult? the player did not follow orders and did not do the humanitarian thing, so should the game handfeed you for not doing something other than just clearing the map? IIRC the other FEs don't exactly spell out their gaiden chapters either, and while you say it's pretty much unfair for a game series to do that, frankly I enjoy discovering hidden content, which you should keep in mind is a big part of videogames in general

in fact, finding hidden stuff tends to make the game far easier than it would be without, not making the game harder if you didn't find them... and there's a big difference in that way, regardless of whether the hidden stuff is spelled out to you, hinted at, or totally secret

2. Is the game still beatable without the axes? If it is, then they're not absolutely necessary, and a player should be able to figure out how to work around it (it's not like those guys disappeared off the face of the roster screen). If the game isn't beatable without those axes, then that's outright bad design. I think there'd be a much bigger uproar if the latter case was true.

the pugi axe is a personal weapon, an overpowered thrown killer axe, and the hero axe is strong for its low rank of D, and you get them in chapter 1; of course they're not necessary to beat the game, especially if you don't decide to focus on axe users, but they make fighting easier, just like any other missed good items (or characters like Tiki, Haar, Navarre clones, and others the games hint at being recruitable) in other FEs

As to how to make the game "easier". . .if the unfair things mentioned above were explicitly explained, would the game's difficulty drop significantly?

if you ask me, the game's difficulty wouldn't drop, because all that's changed is clearer information, which doesn't have an effect on the actual challenge, but the game would be less immersive and perhaps more... amateur? and unenjoyable, if you get what I mean, if everything was spelled out to you

take for example if the game listed these off out of the blue:

Chapter 16B

Shanam: Recruit by talking with Homeros.

Sara: Recruit by talking with Leaf.

Miranda: Recruit by ending Leaf's turn on the castle.

Item: Luna Scroll, steal from enemy.

Item: Pugi Axe, steal from enemy.

Item: Wind Sword, steal from enemy.

Item: Berserk Staff, steal from enemy.

Item: Master Bow, steal from enemy.

Hazard: Warp Tile, located at (x, y)

Hazard: Warp Tile, located at...

and so on and so forth... the game shouldn't be making the checklists for you, you should be doing it yourself by trial and error and learning about the game(although as stated before the warp tiles are bad design), and not being given a strategy guide from the get-go, because then what's the point (these are my own preferences talking)

Edited March 21, 2015 by Lamia

[feplus]

@dondon, I have critiqued your arguments- which I will continue to do until you stop making poor arguments- but I have not insulted you personally. Asking you to extend the same courtesy seems reasonable.

i'm not impressed by your thought experiments.

This is not an argument.

none of them seem problematic to me

This is not an argument.

an example from SMRPG

Bowser's weapon in Booster's Keep is not permanently missable, is not cryptically hidden, and is not Bowser's best weapon. This is an irrelevant counter-example.

it really doesn't seem like many other users here are going to agree with you

This is not an argument.

Shame you decided to all-but ignore my previous post. Hopefully others will pick up your slack and explain to me why my thought experiments constitute good design.

@eclipse I'm surprised by your post. I'm so used to you and I agreeing on all things Fire Emblem that seeing you side with dondon instead of me is a refreshing change of pace.

1. Nowhere did I say knowing enemy AI wasn't helpful; I said it wasn't essential information.

2. The game is beatable without the axes. The game is also much harder without the axes, and, as I said in my previous post, disproportionately penalizing the player for a small lapse in judgment is bad game design.

3. Same goes for Asvel's recruitment.

@Lamia

1. Just to be clear: in my Mario example, it is the player's fault he didn't collect the silver coins, and complaining that the game did not notify him of the significance of this optional task is "whiny." Doesn't matter that he can't go back and complete the challenge later; doesn't matter that the bosses are now much, much harder. Complaining -> whiny. Do I have that right?

2. Yes, I have played Mass Effect. I cannot recall a moment where very important things are outrageously cryptic and permanently missable.

3. I am repeating myself at length. There is nothing wrong with optional content; the issue is how optional content is implemented.

4. To emphasize, I agree with you entirely that Thracia loses a lot of its charm and appeal if it makes optional content and mechanics more explicit. FE5 is such an intriguing game because it flaunts conventional design, disproportionately penalizes the player for small mistakes, keeps essential information hidden, springs traps on the player, and presents a number of unwinnable situations.

What I am arguing against, and what frankly baffles me, is dondon's insistence that FE5 is a traditionally well-designed game. It is not.

Edited March 21, 2015 by feplus

[eclipse]

the pugi axe is a personal weapon, an overpowered thrown killer axe, and the hero axe is strong for its low rank of D, and you get them in chapter 1; of course they're not necessary to beat the game, especially if you don't decide to focus on axe users, but they make fighting easier, just like any other missed good items (or characters like Tiki, Haar, Navarre clones, and others the games hint at being recruitable) in other FEs

I drafted several different FE games, and I learned that many of the optional things are just that - optional. One doesn't need the Warp staff to beat FE11 on lower difficulties, for example. Likewise, FE12 can be finished without Catria/Sirius/Palla. It sounds like those two axes fall under the optional category. It makes life easier if you get it, but it's not absolutely necessary to win the game. Thus, their existence being "cryptic" is perfectly fine.

if you ask me, the game's difficulty wouldn't drop, because all that's changed is clearer information, which doesn't have an effect on the actual challenge, but the game would be less immersive and perhaps more... amateur? and unenjoyable, if you get what I mean, if everything was spelled out to you

take for example if the game listed these off out of the blue:

Chapter 16B

Shanam: Recruit by talking with Homeros.

Sara: Recruit by talking with Leaf.

Miranda: Recruit by ending Leaf's turn on the castle.

Item: Luna Scroll, steal from enemy.

Item: Pugi Axe, steal from enemy.

Item: Wind Sword, steal from enemy.

Item: Berserk Staff, steal from enemy.

Item: Master Bow, steal from enemy.

Hazard: Warp Tile, located at (x, y)

Hazard: Warp Tile, located at...

and so on and so forth... the game shouldn't be making the checklists for you, you should be doing it yourself by trial and error and learning about the game(although as stated before the warp tiles are bad design), and not being given a strategy guide from the get-go, because then what's the point (these are my own preferences talking)

That's not what I said/implied at all, and I have no idea how you drew that conclusion. ;/

FE5 seems to have things that range from "nice, but not necessary" to "if you do this, you can't beat the game". I think having the latter explained is a good thing, while the former can be kept ambiguous (or something that the player discovers on their own).

@eclipse I'm surprised by your post. I'm so used to you and I agreeing on all things Fire Emblem that seeing you side with dondon instead of me is a refreshing change of pace.

The fact that I find myself agreeing with dondon on something that isn't straight FE logic is unusual. I think there's a snowball party in the underworld right now.

1. Nowhere did I say knowing enemy AI wasn't helpful; I said it wasn't essential information.

Not to you, perhaps. For someone like me, it would be, especially since my ideas regarding good design and yours are quite literally polar opposites.

2. The game is beatable without the axes. The game is also much harder without the axes, and, as I said in my previous post, disproportionately penalizing the player for a small lapse in judgment is bad game design.

That's the kind of difficulty I think is good - if you're not willing to explore, you'll lose stuff. Furthermore, those houses will explicitly tell you "hey visit with this dude" if you put the wrong character on there. Since the axes only serve to make things easier, I don't think they need a giant flashing sign that says "DID YOU FORGET ABOUT ME?".

3. Same goes for Asvel's recruitment.

Here's a bit of trivia: FE12 is beatable with only Marth on H2. This tells me there's a lot of things that look like like they're necessary, but aren't. This Asvel guy sounds like one of those things.

tl;dr - If I can theoretically clear a draft of this game without X, Y, or Z, it's optional, and if it's found, more power to the player. If I do something that makes it near-impossible to complete the game, I want as much warning as possible.

[Lamia]

Here's a bit of trivia: FE12 is beatable with only Marth on H2. This tells me there's a lot of things that look like like they're necessary, but aren't. This Asvel guy sounds like one of those things.

tl;dr - If I can theoretically clear a draft of this game without X, Y, or Z, it's optional, and if it's found, more power to the player. If I do something that makes it near-impossible to complete the game, I want as much warning as possible.

asvel himself is an average mage recruitable in a side chapter but he has an overpowered personal weapon to take advantage of

unfortunately FE5 has some of those no-win situations that can happen... for example where you might be able to be stuck due to the fatigue system, like your thieves not being available for a chapter with lots of locks and you can literally be unable to bring all of your A-team in the final chapter if they're fatigued and you don't have enough/any S-drinks to reset them

there's also a chapter where you can be stuck and be unable to progress if you can't unlock all of the doors, so you have to choose between being able to recruit someone PLUS a side chapter or get through the doors, and then there's the last two chapters too...

Edited March 22, 2015 by Lamia

[eclipse]

unfortunately FE5 has some of those no-win situations that can happen... for example where you might be able to be stuck due to the fatigue system, like your thieves not being available for a chapter with lots of locks and you can literally be unable to bring all of your A-team in the final chapter if they're fatigued and you don't have enough/any S-drinks to reset them

there's also a chapter where you can be stuck and be unable to progress if you can't unlock all of the doors, so you have to choose between being able to recruit someone PLUS a side chapter or get through the doors, and then there's the last two chapters too...

Now I see your logic.

- I think things like fatigue need to be explained in-depth - it's a vital gameplay mechanic. That way, if the player doesn't pay attention to it, they only have themselves to blame.

- I don't know how/when/why the thieves leave, or how big of an impact stealing has in this game (I know it's possible to capture enemies and take their stuff, and that's about it). Opening doors seems to be a recurring issue, though, but I'm not sure how big of an impact NOT opening said doors has (perhaps some warning is in order if it'll render a future chapter near-unwinnable).

- Is the chapter where you choose between doors or a side chapter such that you can't win even if you choose to skip the side chapter? If the answer is "no", then I'm perfectly fine with keeping it as-is. Broken personal weapons are nice, but it shouldn't be impossible to win without it (or anywhere near as ridiculous as losing your entire army).

- IIRC, there's something about doors in the final chapter (correct me if I'm wrong). I think scripting an event that gives Leif a door key at the beginning of that chapter should solve that issue.

All of these don't seem to be really "hard" fixes, but then again, I have no idea how difficult event scripting is in FE5. The impression that I get is that explaining the smaller things (and the ones that'll render the game unwinnable) won't lower the difficulty by much - but from the other responses in the topic, it sounds like it might be just enough for the game to be approachable by someone playing blind.

[dondon151]

What I am arguing against, and what frankly baffles me, is dondon's insistence that FE5 is a traditionally well-designed game. It is not.

is that what i said? that's most definitely not what i said. whatever nuance that i carefully included in my position has been all but ignored by you.

also, very few of your arguments are real arguments.

[MisakaMikoto]

I believe the basic principle of rom hacking is to make a game more challengeable and difficult rather than easier. I have seen many outstanding SNES FE hacks, but none of them makes the game easier. It is true that making a game easier is friendly to newcomers, but I still recommend newcomers to play the vanilla official game first before playing any hacks( even if a guidebook is needed). If a player plays through it once, it is not difficult anymore.( Of course pursuing a rank is another thing.)