Someone should make a Thracia romhack that makes it easier

[Katie]

As I'm sure some of you know, Kaga originally intended for an N64 version of Thracia to be released that would be easier than the SNES version and not pretty much require a strategy guide like the SNES version does(fun fact: it was outright designed with selling strategy guides in mind), so that that way it would be more newcomer friendly. I think it'd be interesting if someone took this concept and tried to make a rom hack of Thracia that reduces the difficulty. I'd do it myself, but I have neither the time nor any knowledge of romhacking.

Here's some ideas I have on ways to make it easier:

-Make Leif gain better stat up on promotion, and perhaps give him better bases and/or growths as well. I'm thinking maybe give him +2 to all stats on promotion, 30 base HP, 5 base Str, 30% Mag growth, 5 base Skl, 5 base Def and 30% Def growth.

-Maybe make stats lower less or not lower at all when trying to capture. But this could also make it easier for the enemy, thereby making it harder for you, so I'm not too certain on how to deal with this one.

-Maybe give Eyvel the bases and/or growths for her to be more usable when you get her back. Like maybe 40 base HP with a 50% growth, 15 base Str with a 20% growth, and 10 base Def.

-Let dismounted units not be sword-locked and/or not have their stats lowered. Or maybe get rid of dismounting altogether, and make Lance Knights more like Cavaliers.

-Makes tomes less heavy. Shadow Dragon is the only FE to give tomes a realistic weight(no book should have a weight greater than 5). Or maybe just get rid of weapon weight, and have Con only affect capturing and rescuing. Or perhaps even keep weight, but make it go off strength like in Tellius/FE11. For specifics I'd make Fire weigh 1, Elfire 2, Meteor 5, Thunder 1, Thoron 2, Dime Thunder 3, Thunderstorm 5, Wind 1, Tornado 2, Blizard 5, Grafcalibur 1, Forseti 2, Lightning 2, Nosferatu 3, Yotsmungand 3, and the other dark tomes 5.

-Make Fog of War work more like it did in the GBA games, or get rid of it altogether. Namely, make thieves have 8 vision range, make torches not lose their range of vision, make the Torch staff light around a selected space on the screen rather than work like a Torch, make spaces 'foggy' rather than pitch black so that terrain is still visible, and make your unit immediately able to see around them after moving, rather than after your turn.

-Maybe get rid of the Fatigue system.

-Give Olwen better defensive(i.e. Hp, Def, and Res) bases and/or growths. Like 40 base HP, and 9 base Def. Maybe also 12 base Mag, 10 base Skl, and 11 base Spd, so she'll cap them more often.

-Buff Saias so there's reason to choose him over Ced. I'm thinking buff his base HP to 37, base Skl to 17, base Spd to 16 and Spd growth to 50, base Lck to 14, and base Def to 10, so that he'll have better stats as a tradeoff for Ced getting Forseti.

-Maybe nerf staves. Definitely make healing staffs unable to miss though. Perhaps lower the amount of staff using enemies as well.

-Give Lara better stats as a dancer. Don't make her lose stats when class changing to one, buff her base Def to 3, and buff her HP growth to 50.

-Give Ronan a better Str growth(like around 60). Keep his Mag growth though, as it makes him useful against Mages, given that Mag is also Res in ths game.

-Swap Safy's Str and Def growths. Why would she even need that Str?

-Buff Lifis's Def growth to 20.

-Buff Karin's base Str to 7, Def growth to 20, and her Mag growth to 25.

-Buff Dalsin's speed growth to 30 and his base Spd to 5.

-Buff Marty's Skl and Spd growth's to 20.

-Buff Eda's Def growth to 30, base HP to 29, and base Con to 9.

-Prevent Charge/Duel from being able to activate against long rage magic or ballistas.

-Buff Sara's HP growth to 50 and Def growth to 20.

-Nerf Reinhardt. Lower his HP to 40, his Str to 12, his Mag to 18, his Def to 10, his Con to 10, his Mov to 8, and his Lead and Mov stars to 4. Take away his Pavise skill as well. That or make him recruitable by talking with Olwen, like the alleged prototype information Arch collected suggests.

-Allow players to reposition units before battle, of course.

-Either give a warning that Leif has to be the last to escape an escape chapter, or remove that requirement.

-Buff the base stats Selphina and the knights accompanying her by around 1-2 points.

-Remove List, Pauls, Zoam, and Reinhardt's Pavise skills.

-Give Grafcalibur 60 uses, like the other Prf. weapons.

-Make Wrath able to activate when paired with Vantage.

-Increase the amount of Master Seals/Knight Crests found in the game.

-Maybe include a short bow, which is weaker than other bows but has a 1-2 attack range.

-Buff the base Def of the bow users. Give Tania about 12, Ronan about 16, Selphina about 13, and Robert about 8.

-Lower the prices at shops.

-Make all the Manster characters start with equipment.

-Give Machua 6 base Str.

-Lower the number of reinforcements and enemies in Chapter 4.

-Remove Yotsmungand's poison effect.

-Remove the Meteor Bishop and Silver Bow Archer from chapter 5.

-Lower the number of enemies in chapter 6.

-Make Shiva a stationary non-aggressive unit, and buff his move growth to 5.

-Nerf Gomes's Str to 14 and Def to 10.

-Replace the Killer Lances held by the Wyvern Riders in chapter 9 with Steel ones.

-Nerf the hit chance of ballistae by about 10%.

-Lower the number of Archers and Mages in Chapter 11x.

-Buff Mareeta's Def growth to 25 and Mov growt to 5.

-Buff Glade's growths by 5%

-Lower the amount of reinforcements in chapter 13

-Buff Homer's Def growth to 25%

-Lower the number of enemies in chapter 14

-Lower the number of Pegasus Knights in chater 14x

-Give enemy Saias 3 Leadership stars.

-Lower the amount of reinforcements in chapter 17A

-Give the chapter 17A Mage knights Thunder instead of Thoron.

-Buff Shanam's Skl growth to 30

-Buff Miranda's base HP to 20, base Def to 2, and base Lck to 8.

-Give the Member Card to an enemy unit in chapter 18 rather than make it a reward for having all Leonster soldiers survive.

-Buff Misha's base Str to 11.

-Buff Xavier's base Spd to 9, and his Mov growth to 5.

-Buff Amalda's base Mag to 15, Skl to 13, Lck to 12, and Def to 11.

-Buff Conomore's base Str to 16, Spd to 15, Lck to 10, and Def to 13.

-Remove the Ballistae from chapter 20.

-Lower the number of Reinforcements in chapter 21

-Remove the staves from Saias and Coen in chapter 22.

-Remove the reinforcements from chapter 22.

-Remove the reinforcements from chapter 23.

-Remove the status staves form the enemies in chapter 24 and 24x.

[fengaridotdll]

Then it wouldn't quite be Thracia anymore

[Robert Stewart]

-Replace the Killer Lances held by the Wyvern Riders in chapter 9 with Steel ones.

How would this actually make the game easier? If you're worried about criticals, just give someone a Crusader scroll. You're pretty much guaranteed to have at least one, and probably 3 or 4, at that point.

Edit: I appreciate the idea of making Thracia less "Guide Dangit"-y, but most of these changes don't seem to be aimed at accomplishing this.

No mention of Eriyos's recruitment?

Edited March 15, 2015 by #RR. shinpichu

[Book of Ereshkigal]

There was gonna be a N64 version of FE5?

[Parrhesia]

Stats aren't the issue. Besides, the game already has a mode that shifts the stats further in your favour - Paragon Mode.

It's the janky, ill-thought-out trial-and-error gameplay that makes Thracia difficult.

[Jedi]

Stats aren't the issue. Besides, the game already has a mode that shifts the stats further in your favour - Paragon Mode.

It's the janky, ill-thought-out trial-and-error gameplay that makes Thracia difficult.

This, once you have beaten thracia once. It suddenly isn't hard anymore. Edited March 16, 2015 by Jedi

[dondon151]

Stats aren't the issue. Besides, the game already has a mode that shifts the stats further in your favour - Paragon Mode.

It's the janky, ill-thought-out trial-and-error gameplay that makes Thracia difficult.

a strategy game that's best approached through trial and error is not a bad strategy game.

[Lamia]

my opinions in bold

Here's some ideas I have on ways to make it easier:

-Make Leif gain better stat up on promotion, and perhaps give him better bases and/or growths as well. I'm thinking maybe give him +2 to all stats on promotion, 30 base HP, 5 base Str, 30% Mag growth, 5 base Skl, 5 base Def and 30% Def growth.

Leaf is pretty much the worst lord in the series after Roy, and only because he has access to skills and personal weapons, I can be down with this if it's not too gratuitous.

-Maybe make stats lower less or not lower at all when trying to capture. But this could also make it easier for the enemy, thereby making it harder for you, so I'm not too certain on how to deal with this one.

Capturing is already easy enough once you have the proper equipment set up, making it easier might as well give you infinite gold. Trying to capture everything that moves isn't advised.

-Maybe give Eyvel the bases and/or growths for her to be more usable when you get her back. Like maybe 40 base HP with a 50% growth, 15 base Str with a 20% growth, and 10 base Def.

This wouldn't be a bad idea. As she is, I believe her stats just use the same from the beginning. She could be easily changed.

-Let dismounted units not be sword-locked and/or not have their stats lowered. Or maybe get rid of dismounting altogether, and make Lance Knights more like Cavaliers.

I actually experimented with a patch once where being dismounted allowed units to use some of the same weapons while mounted, whilst also giving swords/axes to Pegasus/Dragon Knights. It wasn't too bad, but axes and lances are a bit too strong overall for utilizing it.

-Makes tomes less heavy. Shadow Dragon is the only FE to give tomes a realistic weight(no book should have a weight greater than 5). Or maybe just get rid of weapon weight, and have Con only affect capturing and rescuing. Or perhaps even keep weight, but make it go off strength like in Tellius/FE11. For specifics I'd make Fire weigh 1, Elfire 2, Meteor 5, Thunder 1, Thoron 2, Dime Thunder 3, Thunderstorm 5, Wind 1, Tornado 2, Blizard 5, Grafcalibur 1, Forseti 2, Lightning 2, Nosferatu 3, Yotsmungand 3, and the other dark tomes 5.

This wouldn't be a bad idea if it weren't for the need to rebalance everything else as a result. It may cause more headaches than cure them, and it makes your spellcasters even more overpowered than they already are, and most of them are.

-Make Fog of War work more like it did in the GBA games, or get rid of it altogether. Namely, make thieves have 8 vision range, make torches not lose their range of vision, make the Torch staff light around a selected space on the screen rather than work like a Torch, make spaces 'foggy' rather than pitch black so that terrain is still visible, and make your unit immediately able to see around them after moving, rather than after your turn.

Creating an ability to extend vision range would be much more doable than making a translucent fog layer. Frankly, I believe it helps make Thracia Thracia.

-Maybe get rid of the Fatigue system.

This is a unique trait for the game.

-Give Olwen better defensive(i.e. Hp, Def, and Res) bases and/or growths. Like 40 base HP, and 9 base Def. Maybe also 12 base Mag, 10 base Skl, and 11 base Spd, so she'll cap them more often.

Not every character needs to cap stats, particularly a prepromote whom shouldn't be expected to.

-Buff Saias so there's reason to choose him over Ced. I'm thinking buff his base HP to 37, base Skl to 17, base Spd to 16 and Spd growth to 50, base Lck to 14, and base Def to 10, so that he'll have better stats as a tradeoff for Ced getting Forseti.

I like this idea, but frankly he needs a better choice as opposed to that overpowered spell. Additional items, maybe even more Leadership Stars than he already comes with.

-Maybe nerf staves. Definitely make healing staffs unable to miss though. Perhaps lower the amount of staff using enemies as well.

How do you expect to nerf them? Additionally, the main contributing factor to having staves at all is stealing them from enemies. Take that away and all you're left with are Live Staff users forever.

-Give Lara better stats as a dancer. Don't make her lose stats when class changing to one, buff her base Def to 3, and buff her HP growth to 50.

Lara can change class three times. If you're so concerned for her stats, give her scrolls.

-Give Ronan a better Str growth(like around 60). Keep his Mag growth though, as it makes him useful against Mages, given that Mag is also Res in ths game.

That's way too much for a 20 cap, especially with the minor boost from promotion and scrolls. 5-10% increase or an increase to his base would be enough.

-Swap Safy's Str and Def growths. Why would she even need that Str?

Why would she even need that Def?

-Buff Lifis's Def growth to 20.

+5% is decent but doesn't seem necessary for a Thief.

-Buff Karin's base Str to 7, Def growth to 20, and her Mag growth to 25.

Strength boost isn't needed.

-Buff Dalsin's speed growth to 30 and his base Spd to 5.

His speed growth is already pretty high for an armor unit. If he needs more, give him the Sety scroll that you get right in the next chapter after he joins.

-Buff Marty's Skl and Spd growth's to 20.

I think instead of one of those he could get a Str growth boost instead, and raise his Skl/Spd bases.

-Buff Eda's Def growth to 30, base HP to 29, and base Con to 9.

Con increase would be good, but maybe to 8; anything else isn't needed due to her decent growths.

-Prevent Charge/Duel from being able to activate against long rage magic or ballistas.

This has a secondary use in being able to wear down their uses with high HP units. Keep in mind that it doesn't activate if the owner has lower current HP to begin with. Otherwise, the option left is to change it to FE4's version, which wasn't really that good since it wasn't as reliable; it's pretty good as it is.

-Buff Sara's HP growth to 50 and Def growth to 20.

Sara's stats and growths are already insane as a glass cannon, not to mention the skills. Don't make her even better; just give her rings or scrolls.

-Nerf Reinhardt. Lower his HP to 40, his Str to 12, his Mag to 18, his Def to 10, his Con to 10, his Mov to 8, and his Lead and Mov stars to 4. Take away his Pavise skill as well. That or make him recruitable by talking with Olwen, like the alleged prototype information Arch collected suggests.

Reinhardt is pretty much harder than the final bosses by default. Removing this challenge is too much, if you ask me. Having him recruitable would make it even more pointless.

-Allow players to reposition units before battle, of course.

There's a patch for that now, while it's not able to manually swap, it's much easier than before.

-Either give a warning that Leif has to be the last to escape an escape chapter, or remove that requirement.

That's easily done in dialogue exposition.

-Buff the base stats Selphina and the knights accompanying her by around 1-2 points.

All of their growths are fine enough. They don't need more help.

-Remove List, Pauls, Zoam, and Reinhardt's Pavise skills.

It's luck-related, but I don't think it's necessary to remove them.

-Give Grafcalibur 60 uses, like the other Prf. weapons.

Grafcalibur is fine. Using more than one or two iterations of it is more than enough due to how much strength it has, and once Asvel starts doubling he'll always crit with it; by then you should have access to Thunder and Wind instead.

-Make Wrath able to activate when paired with Vantage.

Wrath is already pretty much the best skill in the game, plus you get a manual for it early on. Making it better isn't needed.

-Increase the amount of Master Seals/Knight Crests found in the game.

One or two more should do it. Other than that, you don't need so many, and you can just buy them in Ch.22.

-Maybe include a short bow, which is weaker than other bows but has a 1-2 attack range.

I don't think FE5 is compatible with this; the battle scene will probably freeze as it would in FE4, but in both games testing would be required, methinks.

-Buff the base Def of the bow users. Give Tania about 12, Ronan about 16, Selphina about 13, and Robert about 8.

Seriously?

-Lower the prices at shops.

If prices are too expensive, do more capturing. If capturing is too hard, use mounted units and Hero-effect weapons.

-Make all the Manster characters start with equipment.

They're imprisoned.

-Give Machua 6 base Str.

I'd be fine with this, although she tends to do pretty well on her own with her 3x counter-crit.

-Lower the number of reinforcements and enemies in Chapter 4.

The number of enemies behind the doors is annoyingly high, but reinforcements are a pushover and only serve to waste your weapon and vulnerary uses. Make better use of your time, as there's a period where there's no reinforcements.

-Remove Yotsmungand's poison effect.

It's fine as it is.

-Remove the Meteor Bishop and Silver Bow Archer from chapter 5.

Use better strategy.

-Lower the number of enemies in chapter 6.

You don't have to fight that giant army over there. If you want the stuff from the houses, measure risk-reward.

-Make Shiva a stationary non-aggressive unit, and buff his move growth to 5.

Don't underestimate move growth, particularly since growth triggers every time you gain EXP (or maybe it's just any battle/staffing period, I can't quite recall)

-Nerf Gomes's Str to 14 and Def to 10.

He's pretty tough due to that stupid throne bonus. I can agree with at least nerfing his defense.

-Replace the Killer Lances held by the Wyvern Riders in chapter 9 with Steel ones.

I can get behind this a bit. It's a little too early for enemies to be carrying Killer weapons.

-Nerf the hit chance of ballistae by about 10%.

The hit rate is fine. Take your time.

-Lower the number of Archers and Mages in Chapter 11x.

How do you expect them to attack you? Plus, there's not many enemies in the chapter to begin with. It only seems like more because of the fog.

-Buff Mareeta's Def growth to 25 and Mov growt to 5.

Like Sara, Mareeta's overpowered already. Totally not necessary.

-Buff Glade's growths by 5%

His growths are fine.

-Lower the amount of reinforcements in chapter 13

It's meant to be a castle assault. Besides, you're not meant to stick around.

-Buff Homer's Def growth to 25%

His growths are fine.

-Lower the number of enemies in chapter 14

It's a defense chapter. If you want to be aggressive, it's your own fault.

-Lower the number of Pegasus Knights in chater 14x

I can kind of agree with this, but since reinforcements are randomly generated in this chapter it can't be fixed as easily. Regardless, since enemies will always go for an instant capture, it's easy to take them out.

-Give enemy Saias 3 Leadership stars.

Or you could just wait until he leaves; both 17A and 22 will have him leave after a period of time.

-Lower the amount of reinforcements in chapter 17A

The A route is meant to be more difficult, and I'm pretty sure the dialogue even states it. Much more EXP for one's trouble.

-Give the chapter 17A Mage knights Thunder instead of Thoron.

The Gelb Ritter wouldn't be carrying measly Thunder tomes. Regardless, you shouldn't dawdle, and go for bottlenecking them on a bridge.

-Buff Shanam's Skl growth to 30

Shanam's meant to be a piece of crap, but if you want to buff him, be my guest...

-Buff Miranda's base HP to 20, base Def to 2, and base Lck to 8.

As an Est-type character and with fitting growths, I don't think it's necessary. I think it would be better if instead her base weapon EXP was increased.

-Give the Member Card to an enemy unit in chapter 18 rather than make it a reward for having all Leonster soldiers survive.

I agree that the Member Card is next to impossible to get. Giving it to one of the Thieves on the right side that pop up out of the stairs would be much more reasonable, as they will quickly try to escape.

-Buff Misha's base Str to 11.

Her Str is fine, and besides she's quite effective with magic swords from the get-go.

-Buff Xavier's base Spd to 9, and his Mov growth to 5.

Not necessary, he's an armor unit.

-Buff Amalda's base Mag to 15, Skl to 13, Lck to 12, and Def to 11.

Don't you think her Str should get an increase instead? Regardless, +1 in some other stats and whatnot seem alright due to her class, ranking, and recruit time.

-Buff Conomore's base Str to 16, Spd to 15, Lck to 10, and Def to 13.

Speed is too high, but all-around stat increase should be fine like above.

-Remove the Ballistae from chapter 20.

Having them pop up as reinforcements is a bit awkward. However, having them as enemies in a defense chapter is fine.

-Lower the number of Reinforcements in chapter 21

They're a pushover. Just use good judgement.

-Remove the staves from Saias and Coen in chapter 22.

Take your time and bring Restore staves.

-Remove the reinforcements from chapter 22.

It's the near end of the game. Is that really necessary?

-Remove the reinforcements from chapter 23.

See above.

-Remove the status staves form the enemies in chapter 24 and 24x.

See above.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Lamia

[Moishe Oofnik]

-Give Ronan a better Str growth(like around 60). Keep his Mag growth though, as it makes him useful against Mages, given that Mag is also Res in ths game.

No 60% is overkill

Thracia doesnt really need any changes and why buff lifis when scrolling exists?

Olwens growths are amazing and she is a preety great unit why buff her?

Anima Tome weight has only been done well in FE6 the game with alot of bad mage units (forblaze is 6 weight).

You really suck at the game if you dont realize how invaluble are restore staves and how overpowered sara linoan sety and asvel are during endgame.

Getting rid of fatigue is silly.

You must really like ronan if you want him to join with 16 base def and be unkillable

siege tomes are 20 weight making them double with siege tomes is absurd and dumb period.

Giving Buffs to sara and homer seems silly because the already have some preety killer offensive growths

Id Like if delmud was a gotoh like Sety and galzus with capped str speed and skill instead of being a charmbot

and giving leif his FE4 growths

If you like awakenings stupid stat inflation of 55% on lonqu=Average str growth go there Im not complaining about thracia growths and im sure people who played thracia dont

If you want stupid stat inflations play awakening you like the game saying everything to your face instead of using your mind play awakening in hard/normal

P,S:The cyas chapters will generly be warp skipped his 10 leadership stars should stay they should just buff him so that he gets a reason to be picked instead of just being notsety

(he is the heir of the falaflame)

Edited March 19, 2015 by TTPK_Tal

[momogeek2141]

Many of the things you said basically overpower your units while doing nothing for the enemy. Thracian is honest to god fine as it is.

[feplus]

a strategy game that's best approached through trial and error is not a bad strategy game.

why not? tricking the player and providing incomplete (essential) information seems like bad design

[Lamia]

why not? tricking the player and providing incomplete (essential) information seems like bad design

two parts of strategy are learning from surprise situations and mistakes, and gambling can still provide a kick as well

FE is replayable from restarting the chapters, and sure it can get frustrating in some areas, but it's a learning experience as much as a careful decision experience

[Artix]

two parts of strategy are learning from surprise situations and mistakes, and gambling can still provide a kick as well

FE is replayable from restarting the chapters, and sure it can get frustrating in some areas, but it's a learning experience as much as a careful decision experience

I would agree if Thracia was primarily one-off stuff. Like, the hostile green units are fucking hilarious once you get over the shock of it, but that's something you can see once, go "Okay, that was funny", then complete the map on your second try. Compare that to...say, 24x. Fog of War? Check. All kinds of status staves being thrown around? Check. Unmarked teleport tiles that requires you to burn a Rescue staff? Check and check. Oh, and don't hit too many of the invisible tiles, because you can have at most 9 Rescue charges. And don't forget that because of the way escape maps work, anyone that you don't rescue is dead. 100% gone forever, with all of their equipment.

You could argue that it's "fair" in as much as Thracia is ever "fair", doubly so since it is the penultimate chapter of the game. But that's the exact kind of stuff that could (and should!) be smoothed over. You don't need to gut Thracia's difficulty to make it more accessible, you just need to gut it's bullshit.

[dondon151]

why not? tricking the player and providing incomplete (essential) information seems like bad design

at the same time, it's impossible to provide the player with complete essential information. whether some information is essential is up to debate, but for example, FE never gives information about enemy AI behavior, and it also never tells the player about the enemy movement order (which can be important). for a reasonably difficult objective, there's no way for the game to tell the player that he's lost that objective without having successfully done x by turn y; the only way for the player to figure that out is via trial and error.

trial and error doesn't suggest to me that the game has tricked the player and maliciously withheld information; it only suggests to me that the gameplay is difficult enough to warrant multiple trials. it could be that the gameplay is difficult because the game has tricked the player and maliciously withheld information, but that's not the only etiology of difficult gameplay.

[Lamia]

I would agree if Thracia was primarily one-off stuff. Like, the hostile green units are fucking hilarious once you get over the shock of it, but that's something you can see once, go "Okay, that was funny", then complete the map on your second try. Compare that to...say, 24x. Fog of War? Check. All kinds of status staves being thrown around? Check. Unmarked teleport tiles that requires you to burn a Rescue staff? Check and check. Oh, and don't hit too many of the invisible tiles, because you can have at most 9 Rescue charges. And don't forget that because of the way escape maps work, anyone that you don't rescue is dead. 100% gone forever, with all of their equipment.

You could argue that it's "fair" in as much as Thracia is ever "fair", doubly so since it is the penultimate chapter of the game. But that's the exact kind of stuff that could (and should!) be smoothed over. You don't need to gut Thracia's difficulty to make it more accessible, you just need to gut it's bullshit.

well in that particular case there's no question that the warp tiles in 16B and 24x are fake difficulty

some proper event editing can easily remove them if a balance patch needed it

[feplus]

When people speak of trial and error, they typically don't mean needing multiple attempts to get past a difficult section of the game. They mean needing to try something repeatedly so you know what happens, what works, and what doesn't work. If the player had complete information, trial and error would be unnecessary.

I don't take issue with hiding AI behavior or enemy turn order. I do take issue with the game throwing the player into situations he had no foreknowledge of and / or [ii] that hold greater significance than reasonably expected. Here is a brief list:

-not knowing sending axemen to specific houses gives you incredible axes

-not knowing that you'd lose all your units aside from Lifis after Ch.3

-not knowing that you'd lose all your items aside from Lifis' / Leaf's inventory after Ch.3

-not knowing you really should have given Lifis / Leaf some extra keys

-not knowing you really should have given Leaf those early stat boosters

-not knowing an all-important boss killer is tucked away in 4x

-not knowing about arbitrarily placed warp tiles in a couple of maps

-not knowing about the scarcity of weapons and how essential capturing is

-not knowing that you need to capture a boss to save Dagda and Tania

-not knowing that Cyas is coming with approximately three hundred stars

-not knowing that Leaf exiting first means you lose your entire army

I could go on at length. Character recruitments, gaiden requirements, key items / weapons, and major tides in the flow of battle are often cryptic beyond belief, and not going into Thracia 776 with a great deal of preparation and walkthrough knowledge puts the player at a profound disadvantage.

FE5 is not well-designed in a traditional sense, but that's part of what makes it so brilliant. It is the only title in the series that makes the player the underdog, which dovetails beautifully with the darker themes of the game. Let's just not pretend that it's fair.

Edited March 20, 2015 by feplus

[dondon151]

When people speak of trial and error, they typically don't mean needing multiple attempts to get past a difficult section of the game. They mean needing to try something repeatedly so you know what happens, what works, and what doesn't work. If the player had complete information, trial and error would be unnecessary.

I don't take issue with hiding AI behavior or enemy turn order. I do take issue with the game throwing the player into situations he had no foreknowledge of and / or [ii] that hold greater significance than reasonably expected.

but i do take issue with hiding AI behavior, and it's something that i have to reset for repeatedly so that i can form good guesses about what enemies will do. all reinforcements in fire emblem encourage trial and error unless they are explicitly hinted at ahead of time: this includes both ambush and non-ambush spawns, since non-ambush spawns can still take the player by surprise. i don't have a confused concept of trial and error gameplay.

i've had users complain that my old ROM hack project was badly designed because it encouraged too much trial and error gameplay. it's a difficult ROM hack for sure, but there are no ambush spawns and many things are explicitly stated, so i think these users, in their frustration, equate difficulty with bad design.

Here is a brief list:

-not knowing sending axemen to specific houses gives you incredible axes

-not knowing that you'd lose all your units aside from Lifis after Ch.3

-not knowing that you'd lose all your items aside from Lifis' / Leaf's inventory after Ch.3

-not knowing you really should have given Lifis / Leaf some extra keys

-not knowing you really should have given Leaf those early stat boosters

-not knowing an all-important boss killer is tucked away in 4x

-not knowing about arbitrarily placed warp tiles in a couple of maps

-not knowing about the scarcity of weapons and how essential capturing is

-not knowing that you need to capture a boss to save Dagda and Tania

-not knowing that Cyas is coming with approximately three hundred stars

-not knowing that Leaf exiting first means you lose your entire army

i think that FE5 could have done with a tutorial for some of the more essential components, such as capturing and escaping. some of your objections aren't as valid, though. easter eggs and hidden content were big deals, especially in older games that were released in the early era of the internet when gaming forums and online guides weren't abundant. even nowadays, easter eggs contribute positively to the gaming experience while also requiring trial and error to unlock, so it's really an arbitrary call as to whether hiding them from the player is good or bad. for the record, FE4 does this a lot too, with the hero axe, pursuit ring, holyn recruitment, and all of the villages that give +stats.

furthermore, the game expects the player to figure out that, for example, halvan gets the hero axe, or that yuvel goes to the bottom right house (i'm not 100% sure on this because the site doesn't have the chapter 3 house conversations). halvan's sister specifically states that she's looking for halvan, and i'm fairly certain that the inhabitants of the chapter 3 houses mention their kids by name (plus if you bring a kid to the wrong house, the house doesn't close its doors on you). yuvel's caretaker even namedrops dalshin! go figure.

FE5's script actually hints at or outright mentions many of the issues that you brought up. chapter 4's script has ced requesting brighton to release the people trapped in the dungeon area (and NPCs are people). chapter 17A's script specifically mentions the genius tactician saias coming to the aid of the enemy. your stat booster complaint makes no sense; FE10 doesn't tell the player to dump stat boosters on jill, which is no different than FE5 not telling the player to dump stat boosters on leif.

some would consider it a positive that FE5 gives out these cryptic hints instead of outright telling the player what to do.

Edited March 20, 2015 by dondon151

[Lamia]

cryptic hints are pretty much a staple, I mean FE7 had a whole feature that was about that (augury) but I think having hints in conversation or in-chapter events works better

while having leaf and lifis get captured in chapter 4 is a pretty big surprise, I don't think it detracted much, and you can get their original items from the chests anyway (and with a few extras IIRC if you didn't load them up)

things like the above mentioned capturing and escaping could have been handled better as it can be a pretty annoying thing, I don't doubt my first time playing FE5 I saved over my savefile when having leaf escape earlier than most, thankfully I had savestates at the time despite how cheaty it is, but all in all it's pretty gross

[lonelyVoxel]

Something I might do with FEXNA, most likely as a personal derp-around thing before I attempt to make an original game, is make an attempt to port some already-existing FE games to it. It'd be hard to stay true to all game's mechanics, but I'll see what I can do with FE5. I can't say I'll try to make it easier from the onset, but I might try to tweak the balance and see how it goes.

[feplus]

I can't imagine the nuance of enemy AI is essential information unless you're LTCing.

non-ambush spawns can still take the player by surprise.

Struggling to think of an example. The only situation where non-ambush spawns would spell certain doom was if a player left a vulnerable unit by himself or herself, without a means to transport them to safety. That situation is entirely within the player's control to avoid.

easter eggs contribute positively to the gaming experience while also requiring trial and error to unlock

Sure, and I don't take issue with easter eggs themselves. The issue is how well optional content is implemented.

FE5's script actually hints at or outright mentions many of the issues that you brought up

It does, but, as I mentioned in my previous post, it does not give the player information about their significance.

1. Leaf implies that he ought to escape last; okay, why? Do left-behind units get more fatigued? Do they lose their items? Do they lose experience? Does it cost turns? No, they get captured off-screen and lost until the last few maps.

2. It's suggested that Halvan and Othin visit a couple of particular houses; okay, why? Do they get vulneraries? Do they have special conversations with their family before embarking? Do they get modest stat bumps? No, they get the two best axes in the game, without which things become far more difficult.

3. Sety instructs his men to rescue the captives; okay, why? Do you get a special item? Do you unlock a special scene? Do all the captives need to escape, or just most of them, or just one? No, all the captives need to escape, and your reward is a gaiden map full of experience and an invaluable boss-killing mage.

I can't think of another Fire Emblem that hides essentials behind such cryptic requirements without informing the player.

Edited March 21, 2015 by feplus

[dondon151]

I can't imagine the nuance of enemy AI is essential information unless you're LTCing.

then that's a problem with your imagination.

different kinds of information are essential to different players. who are you to say that what i think is essential is irrelevant? knowledge of AI behavior actually mitigates difficulty substantially on hard modes. i've seen users complain about how unfair FE6 status staves are; after i told them about the status staff AI behavior discoveries, those users found the obstacles to be trivial. the outcome is that a ton of trial and error is removed because the player has discovered this information through an outside source (which involved trial and error to unearth in the first place).

Struggling to think of an example. The only situation where non-ambush spawns would spell certain doom was if a player left a vulnerable unit by himself or herself, without a means to transport them to safety. That situation is entirely within the player's control to avoid.

i literally gave you an example when i said that some users complained about how my ROM hack required too much trial and error. i had already changed all of the enemy reinforcements to non-ambush spawns, and i still get this complaint. if you want an example from the main series games, FE12 chapter 19 is notorious for having hordes of 10 mov enemy dracoknights appear from the corners of the map on lunatic mode. i don't remember if these are ambush or non-ambush spawns, but they would be problematic either way.

It does, but, as I mentioned in my previous post, it does not give the player information about their significance.

the game doesn't have to inform the player about the significance of its suggestions. that the suggestions are there in the first place imply their significance!

I can't think of another Fire Emblem that hides essentials behind such cryptic requirements without informing the player.

again, i literally gave examples in my previous post. FE4 has a plethora of hidden events, two of which i listed that severely impact the usability of certain characters. i'm pretty sure FE4 was rather cryptic about marriage, and of course it never really explains inheritance. FE6 and FE7 never tell the player how to get a gaiden chapter, so FE5 is not the only game to be underhanded in this respect. FE9 never tells the player how to recruit stefan.

i already agreed that escape, capture, and door keys are 3 aspects of the game that deserve tutorials or at least those info blurbs that appear on a scroll prior to a map. the door key problem can actually be solved by having enemy AI that opens the doors or by having enemies that drop door keys; these mechanics don't exist in FE5, which is unfortunate, but if they were to exist, then this wouldn't be a problem at all.

Edited March 21, 2015 by dondon151

[feplus]

I mean, instead of insulting my imagination, you could give me examples where knowing FE5 enemy AI behavior is essential information.

You getting complaints about non-ambush reinforcements does not make those complaints legitimate.

Well that's just silly. Fire Emblem games hint at plenty of things; save that village, talk to that person, visit X with Y. If the rewards are significant, their significance is almost always established; FE5 is the one game that constantly eschews this guideline.

I didn't touch your FE4 examples because they're also problematic, although their significance pales compared to FE5's cryptic goodies. FE7's gaidens never house essential goods / items (except for Battle Preparations which is, fittingly, automatically unlocked), and FE6's gaidens are, with one or two exceptions, super obvious.

Edited March 21, 2015 by feplus

[CT075]

how can you say that the game specifically saying to have two characters visit houses (that also specifically call the character out by name if you use the wrong person) is any worse than "yeah some people see things moving in the northeast of the desert" -> "go stand on a specific tile with one of these two specific characters"? fuck, fe10 is even worse about it (your only hint about stephan's existence is that he existed in fe9 and it's the same geographical location; it's not even the same coordinates on the map!) for that matter, the former gives you items that are, admittedly, very good, but in the latter you miss an entire character

Edited March 21, 2015 by CT075

[feplus]

If the two best axes in the game, axes that made tough maps far easier, were hidden in the sand and the game didn't give you any hints about their significance, that would be an issue.

Stefan's recruitment- in both 9 and 10- is also an issue.

I really don't understand some of these responses. "FE5 did this, but other games did it too!" is not a point in favor of FE5; it's a point against those other games. FE5 is notable both for how cryptic these goodies are and for how often it makes essentials cryptic.

Edited March 21, 2015 by feplus

[dondon151]

I really don't understand some of these responses. "FE5 did this, but other games did it too!" is not a point in favor of FE5; it's a point against those other games. FE5 is notable both for how cryptic these goodies are and for how often it makes essentials cryptic.

that's just simply not true. you're saying that it's bad game design for a game to not be explicit about every single thing (whether something is "essential" is totally subjective; many of the issues that you brought up with FE5 are not "essential" despite you claiming them to be). i'm saying that it's not. in fact, it seems to be commonly accepted that crypticness is a positive aspect of game design because it manages to convey information in a way that tests the player's critical thinking abilities while not detracting from the immersive experience. video games will very often provide a hint for the player to do something without specifying the reward because the whole point of the hint is to encourage the player to discover what the reward is.

for example, in super mario RPG (which, by the way, is much loved despite its copious quantity of "essential" easter eggs), there's a locked door in booster's castle that contains a weapon for bowser. the game never tells you, "herein lies a weapon for bowser." additionally, it never tells you how to get the key. you get the key by solving a puzzle that requires you to be observant in a previous room of the castle. has the game been improved by the addition of this puzzle, or would it just be better if the game handed you the weapon?

irysa has often linked an interview with shigeru miyamoto about how game design can influence a player's decisions without being explicit about it. to my recollection, miyamoto uses the first map of super mario bros. as an example: there's an enemy goomba, a series of blocks at head height, and one block releases a mushroom. the mushroom, if left alone, slides off the blocks, bounces off a pipe, and rebounds towards mario. how is the player supposed to know that the goomba is bad and the mushroom is good? he doesn't, but the first section of the first map is designed in such a way to facilitate the player learning these details, and the game never explicitly tells the player anything.

Edited March 21, 2015 by dondon151