Wheel of Time

[Rapier]

Thoughts, opinions etc. about the series? It would be nice if other posters remember to keep the spoiler policy (preferably specifying which part or book the spoiler comes from)

I particularly believe it is too underground and unnoticed in general, but I'm not sure whether it is famous in the rest of the world. Like everything else in my country, the series came on very late and were introduced only a few years ago (2012?), so I'm still catching up.

Currently reading the fourth book whenever I have the time for it. So far, I found the second book the best of them, because the first one seems more like an introduction to the series and to the world's setting, while the next book actually gets stuff done and character development issues.

[Moira]

I'm a fan of the series. Specifically, I like the characters and their development, as well as the story in general. The only major problem is how gosh darn long it takes to get anything done in the series. You can really lose track of a lot over the course of the story, and I honestly couldn't tell you what happens in the first 10 books of the series by now. I've read every book but the last.

[Dragoncat]

Tried this series a long time ago. I can see how it takes forever for anything to happen, because of that, I lost interest in the first book quickly. I don't remember much at all. I vaguely remember some ogre/orc thing killing some guy's wife or something else bad happening to her. And this I'm not even sure was in it: some people went out and killed a dragon and paraded its head around on a big stick. If that was in it, I can see why I would lose interest, I love dragons xD

[alatartheblue42]

Personally, I found it to be excellent. I've read all 14 main books as well as the sequel. As a warning, I found it to be a bit lacking in momentum in the middle (books 7-9 or so, I think), but it was overall quite good. And Brandon Sanderson did an excellent job with the last 3 as well. Biggest problem with the books? (Sorry, I don't remember how to use spoiler tags, but I'll keep it vague). A certain character dying in book 14, and the ending that elaboration upon has been forbidden by Robert Jordan himself.

[sirmola]

I read the first book and i thought it was decent, but not good enough to be worth reading the entire series. I saw good ideas, but even within that book, the pace was far too slow. Of my 2 fantasy loving relatives, my brother loved it and my cousin felt lt it wasn't very good, except for the last 3 books (the ones by brandon sanderson), which he loved. I remember him telling me that it was not worth sloging through jordan's writing to get to sandersons writing.

[BBM]

Wheel of Time isn't well known as a whole among people (like say Lord of the Rings or more recently A Song of Ice and Fire) but among fantasy readers it's very well known as one of the definitive epic fantasy sagas of the last generation. You can see the good vs evil schism much more clearly than in ASoIaF, for example, which is very much the definitive new age gritty fantasy saga.

It has a lot of plus and minus points. Robert Jordan cares a lot about worldbuilding and you can see that, but his characterization suffers sometimes. Rand is well written on the whole, but many of the other characters stop growing as the series progresses, and there are others like Gawyn, who just reverts every time you think he's grown. The series also really starts dragging around books 5-9. Too many plot lines, too many characters, and resolving even relatively minor lines starts taking like 3 books. Perrin, I'm looking at you.

The worst thing overall though is probably characterization of females, and romance. Rand having a harem is kind of just wtf especially as none of them have a personality where you would think they would be okay with something like that, except they somehow are. The females in general all kind of blend together in their characterization until you distinguish them by not their personalities but what they do. The only ones who really stand out are Moiraine for actually having a clue earlier on, Nynaeve, and Tuon. The rest of them are all just "strong independent women" with varying levels of peppiness. The romance is all pretty puerile, but I guess that's what happens when Rand has to get it on with three different girls whom he only spends short amounts of time with. Mat's and Perrin's are done better but still not great.

I've written a lot more about the bad than the good. I did enjoy the series, but there are much better fantasy books. Brandon Sanderson's own original work, for example, is a lot better IMO.

[Rapier]

Yeah, I've got to agree that the pace is too slow. I've noticed a pattern already: Book starts awesomely, shit happens, then plot points are addressed and connected to something bigger, then most of the plot is dull until midway to that 'something bigger'. Like in the second book:

In the second book, the invasion of Shienar ("book starts awesomely, shit happens"), then the shienarans' search for the horn while the other girls train to become Aes Sedai ("plot points are addressed"), then the invaders from the sea part comes ("the plot points are connected to something bigger"), the group finds the horn and drive them away all the while Rand gets himself compulsorily into showing the world that he is the Dragon Reborn ("something bigger").

Except these plot points are addressed extremely slowly and it is fairly easy to lose interest. Which is different from ASOIAF, which starts dull and proggresses into awesomeness as it is supposed to do.

The only ones who really stand out are Moiraine for actually having a clue earlier on, Nynaeve, and Tuon

I really like Siuan, also. Egwene and Elaine are okay, not because they lack a personality, but because they don't attract me much. Min's only saving feature is her powers, but personality wise she's meh.

Really, it's like Rand is playing his own version of Agarest: Generations of War. I haven't seen any of his candidates yet (or I have, but they hadn't done much until now), but it is frequently mentioned by Mat how annoying it is that every girl moons over Rand so easily.

I don't know whether I should question the fact that the trio starts quite capable of handling a few Trollocs easily, or how Mat is a master of D&D and gets awesome dice rolls when he isn't that much experienced in combat to begin with (or he is, because I suspect some plot things that may be obvious but I'm stupid).

Edited March 27, 2015 by Rapier

[Esau of Isaac]

Wheel of Time is my favorite fantasy series. When I got used to the length of WoT it kind of ruined a lot of other ambitious fantasy series for me because of its pacing. But it's full of great characters, an amazing magic system, and an epic plot. How snooty people are about the series is like a litmus test for whether their opinions are worth listening to haha.

[BBM]

@Rapier- if you're on book 4, the entire harem's been introduced by now I think, though you may not have realized who they are.

I do like the magic system and the worldbuilding. One of the things Robert Jordan does really great that many fantasy stories don't is how much he thinks about how the magic system and the fact that only females can use magic without going mad affects cultures and affects male-female power dynamics. Most fantasy stories tend to have a normal medieval patriarchal society, so seeing how it's almost matriarchal here was pretty cool.

My favourite female characters are probably Egwene and Tuon tbh. Egwene's personality is pretty similar to other female characters' but she has some pretty kickass parts in the later books. And Tuon being raised in such a drastically different culture makes her a fun character.

[Rapier]

I thought so, but

I know Min and Elaine are part of the harem, but I'm not sure who else is. Egwene is clearly out, and Lanfear doesn't count. Probably the girl who arranges a meeting with the Dragon Reborn by the end of book 3

[Esau of Isaac]

I thought so, but

I know Min and Elaine are part of the harem, but I'm not sure who else is. Egwene is clearly out, and Lanfear doesn't count. Probably the girl who arranges a meeting with the Dragon Reborn by the end of book 3

Aviendah is the third woman. Also best girl, tsundere as fuck.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Esau of Isaac

[Rapier]

No one can beat Nynaeve at tsundereness, methinks. She's as bad as Tohsaka Rin (plus being a Supergirl), except done in a good way.

That Wheel of Time live action clip was terrible. Lews Therin wearing a tuxedo? My eyes hurt. And they managed to get Jordan's wife annoyed.

That said, I'd be in love with a TV series of Wheel of Time.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Rapier

[Original Alear]

I don't know whether I should question the fact that the trio starts quite capable of handling a few Trollocs easily, or how Mat is a master of D&D and gets awesome dice rolls when he isn't that much experienced in combat to begin with (or he is, because I suspect some plot things that may be obvious but I'm stupid).

Tbh I think Trollocs are kind of inexplicably weak. They seem to be big and strong, but they're regularly described as cowards and it seems like most human warriors/soldiers are easily worth more than a few trollocs each. Maybe I'm not remembering things that well.

I think Mat and Tuon are probably my favorite characters?

I am OK with dullness in books. Actually that can be really great. But even though the last book in the series was one huge series of battles, I found it kind of boring. I was impressed by (spoilers up to the last book)

The number of characters who got knocked off in the last stretch. Also, Briggite's (sp?) death -> life seems so obvious in hindsight, but I had no idea it was going to happen because I had gotten used to the idea that she might die forever if she died after being ripped out of the world of dreams (I'm pretty sure that was a theory they were operating by within the books).

In general I am not a big fan of the world of dreams, and I thought the entire Perrin VS Slayer thing was boring. Graendal becoming ugly but still collecting a harem was great. Grey men are probably the most repetitive plot device ever. "Man, that guy shore does look ordinary, I barely noti-AAH FUCK STOP STABBING ME!" My favorite monster was probably the Gholam, and my favorite nation/faction were the Seanchan. Emo Rand is the best and I am sad he left us towards the end of the series.

And oh my god that Wheel of Time live action clip was hilarious. It totally ruined a great scene though. I tend to like when Ishmael shows up in the books. Lews Therin wearing a suit is not entirely nonsensical (I won't explain why), though for all I know the first book described him as wearing something else.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Severlan

[Esau of Isaac]

Tbh I think Trollocs are kind of inexplicably weak. They seem to be big and strong, but they're regularly described as cowards and it seems like most human warriors/soldiers are easily worth more than a few trollocs each. Maybe I'm not remembering things that well.

Trollocs are just supposed to be pretty big and meaty, but stupid. Most of the scenes where they're taken out by inexperienced people are because they didn't see the attack coming, something like that.

And I agree with that earlier statement about Mat. A lot of his abilities have to be from the dice. Even if he's a capable fighter with his quarterstaff, it's inexplicable that he could defeat Gawyn and Galad at the same time, and while weak and out of practice at that. I think that's one of the craziest fights of the series, it kind of set me off to his powers even then.

Also, the pilot was pretty bad, but not too awful. The kind of suit he was wearing wasn't really all that weird, suits like that exist in the series and Rand wears them all the time. He was described as wearing a cloak in the book, but it doesn't look that bad. But I do think Ishamael looked way too old, I've always pictured him as a clean-shaven thirty-something with impeccable cleanliness. I think they should avoid using the prologue of the series, in any event, because it's confusing and will turn off viewers of the show. Seriously, just start it from the beginning with Rand in the field. It's a perfect setup for a first episode, it can end with the Trolloc attack. The episode would write itself Jesus.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Esau of Isaac

[Original Alear]

The Dice >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Flame and the Void

So btw, in the final battle,

Is it safe to say that while Lan used the flame and the void to kill Demandred, neither Gawyn nor Galad were trained in it?

[Rapier]

I am almost sure that his dad is the guy who beat the strongest gaidin, but even so that is quite absurd. Mat was handcapped at that time, and Gawyn and Galad are not pushovers.

Rand and Perrin have no excuse for being so good so early. Lan said he'd take months until he'd become skilled, and yet he defeats a swordmaster in Book 2, then pulls a Palpatine on Book 3 and kills a band of 9 people that swiftly.

Perrin kills Whitecloaks as if they were loldiers on a Fire Emblem game, on Book 3.

Funny how Robert Jordan seems very strict on his role-playing games, but gives so much free pass for his characters to bribe the RNGoddess.

Rand is way more lucky than Mat.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Rapier

[BBM]

Rand is the DRAGON REBORN, Mat is lucky but his entire power is being lucky, and Perrin is WOLF SPEAKER

They're basically like destined for glory or some shit (the first two especially I think). All the guys become super awesome quickly at fighting but pretty much all the main characters become super awesome quickly at doing stuff- Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne all become super good at magic quickly and the explanation is "they're all prodigies".

Nynaeve isn't really a tsundere- she just has a really short temper. Aviendha is way more tsundere; you'll see once she actually becomes more main.

Trollocs are basically supposed to be like the Orcs of Wheel of Time? They're dumb and they can kill regular people but trained humans are way better. That's essentially how I've always seen them.

regarding Perrin

I agree Perrin vs Slayer was kind of lame; he was kind of off by himself for 90% of the series's climax and I thought it sort of sucked. He just came in at the very end to help Rand and that's it.

as for the Wheel of Time TV series- the conclusion I've come to is that because Red Eagle Entertainment's media rights for Wheel of Time were going to expire unless they put something on TV, they made an extremely low budget and fast pilot just so that they wouldn't lose the rights. This is a decent article explaining it all. I don't think that there are any spoilers in there.

[Esau of Isaac]

I am almost sure that his dad is the guy who beat the strongest gaidin, but even so that is quite absurd. Mat was handcapped at that time, and Gawyn and Galad are not pushovers.

Rand and Perrin have no excuse for being so good so early. Lan said he'd take months until he'd become skilled, and yet he defeats a swordmaster in Book 2, then pulls a Palpatine on Book 3 and kills a band of 9 people that swiftly.

Perrin kills Whitecloaks as if they were loldiers on a Fire Emblem game, on Book 3.

Funny how Robert Jordan seems very strict on his role-playing games, but gives so much free pass for his characters to bribe the RNGoddess.

Rand is way more lucky than Mat.

All three of them are ta'veren, so right away they're going to come out ahead of their peers. Rand is the reincarnation of an excellent swordfighter, it's entirely explainable for him to become capable within a year's time by the third book. As for Perrin, while I recall him becoming a capable fighter, I don't remember him being referred to as amazing. Killing Whitecloaks isn't all that spectacular a feat of strength.

[Rapier]

Rand is the DRAGON REBORN, Mat is lucky but his entire power is being lucky, and Perrin is WOLF SPEAKER

I know, but allowing them to just break the logic of their own settings because they're ta'veren is bad play. Of course, it is dismissible, but still.

Perrin shouldn't be killing Whitecloaks like loldiers on Book 3, he is still not that experienced. Rand shouldn't have been able to become so good with the blade in months short of training. That is my point. It seems as if they were born spectacular.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Rapier

[BBM]

They essentially are born spectacular, as are all the other main characters, and at least the guys have the explanation of being ta'veren.

On the topic of reincarnations, Mat is also the reincarnation of a whole line of generals and other war heroes so yeah. Perrin is also shown to be a very good fighter but I've seen that as being the wolf influence.

[Original Alear]

Rand shouldn't have been able to become so good with the blade in months short of training. That is my point. It seems as if they were born spectacular.

Rand probably has the best excuse for being good at fighting of all of them. Tam training him in the flame and the void seems like it was a huge combat asset throughout the series.

[Esau of Isaac]

Also is anyone going through the pain of transitioning from the old fat ugly tiny paperbacks from the 90s to the new beautiful big ones?

I think part of the reason that WoT never caught on fully was because the old books were so dauntingly fat and looked awful. I mean their artwork is putrid, it's not even accurate to the series Jesus.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Esau of Isaac

[BBM]

I always thought that cover for Eye of the World was hilarious because I can't even remember there being any ships? I agree though, the original artwork is pretty outdated. Should be noted though that a lot of the artwork around that time is kind of similar.

Also I read all the books online so yeah no hard copy transitioning anyways.

[Rapier]

I like the Wheel of Time's symbol on the pages, but how they're just okay with recoloring it with every book is meh. I'd prefer if the artwork was similar to that of the GoT books.

I can't even remember there being any ships?

Seems like the artwork dude just opened a random part of the book, read the part where Rand is being mad on the mast of the ship, and decided to draw him. Or was it Mat? I don't remember.

[Esau of Isaac]

It was Rand, and I liked that scene. It was I believe the first time he ever channeled, it was why he had such a cheery demeanor.