Who is your least favorite character in the Tellius games?

[Irysa]

It's not just "one line". It's what he decides to do and how he deides to go about it. Part 3 is something of a character assassination in terms of Ike, there is simply no way the Ike from FE9 would have accepted a violent invasion as a solution to the problem. FE10 Ike does, so he's basically just gone back on everything he came to understand and represent.

The first example is Endgame but the second line is AFTER THAT. That proves something's changed.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Irysa

[Anacybele]

Yeah, and you want change. Otherwise, the character doesn't develop/grow at all. RD Ike doesn't have to react to everything the exact same way he did in PoR. That would just be boring and silly.

[Irysa]

That's EXACTLY THE PROBLEM THOUGH. FE10 Ike DOESN'T develop or grow, he's just an entirely different character in so many regards. I'd be on board for a game where Ike's views are challenged and he develops, but he doesn't, FE10 is the same old boring hypocrite the entire time and there's no reasoning whatsoever to any of this entirely opposite philosophical angle. FE9 is a game where Ike goes on that journey and discovers what he really believes in and what he cares about, FE10 just gives us some guy who claims to be Ike and doesn't have anything to do with the man I knew from FE9.

[Ownagepuffs]

Who does Ike really know in Begnion? The Apostle and the Holy Guard come to mind. It's not like this is Crimea or something. The senators made it clear that they have total authority.

The Begnion Ike went to war with was not the same Begnion Ike remembered. This was the Senators' Begnion. As far as he was concerned, fuck 'em.

Also, that part about people leaving if they didn't want to work with the laguz isn't so bad when you think about it. People still dislike Laguz, that's not going to change. It's pretty reasonable that he would tell people that they could leave if they didn't want to work with each other. The "we are family" speech reeked of youthful idealism, which Ike no longer has.

Edit: pre emptive apology to Red Fox who's bound to be annoyed at yet another Ike discussion

Edit 2: Now that I think about it, Ike made it pretty clear that he wanted nothing to do with being Begnion's general when he was promoted to Lord in PoR. He still more or less treated the whole thing as "just a job" that Elincia gave him. His beliefs are still there, he's just not as overt about it.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Ownagepuffs

[Irysa]

Who does Ike really know in Begnion? The Apostle and the Holy Guard come to mind. It's not like this is Crimea or something. The senators made it clear that they have total authority.

Tormod (potentially Muarim, he doesn't know if they've moved), Sephiran, etc. Not to mention the people he'll have met just from staying in Begnion for a short while in FE9.

The Begnion Ike went to war with was not the same Begnion Ike remembered. This was the Senators' Begnion. As far as he was concerned, fuck 'em.

Do I have to point out again that Ike has been on the recieving end and the instigating end of violent invasions? He's seen and experienced what these campaigns are like and clearly had a distaste for them. FE10 likes to gloss over the fact that war mongering Laguz and Ike are parading over land that is primarily occupied by innocent people, in their own country, who have done ABSOLOUTELY NOTHING WRONG.

Also, that part about people leaving if they didn't want to work with the laguz isn't so bad when you think about it. People still dislike Laguz, that's not going to change. It's pretty reasonable that he would tell people that they could leave if they didn't want to work with each other. The "we are family" speech reeked of youthful idealism, which Ike no longer has.

I didn't realise an intolerance to bigotry counted purely as "youthful idealism" in any context. His phrasing was corny, but the entire "I really don't give a shit" attitude he has towards far too much of FE10 (and it's not just that line) is the exact problem I have with Ike in FE10, he just doesn't seem to really give a shit about anything. It's not about being composed, he's just completely bland and nothing I can even list about the Ike from the past will stick there. I can't even reasonably list characteristics of FE10 Ike besides possibily retaining some snarkiness, that's how bad it is.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Irysa

[Ownagepuffs]

Edit (sorry): Sephiran is up there with the Apostle and Holy Guard. Not that he really cared for them as much as say, Ranulf. Also I don't expect Ike to remember civilian #4 after 3 years.

Did they actually invade Begnion? I thought they just went to war. I didn't pay much attention to part 3. At some point Begnion even tried to take over Crimea. That's reason enough for Ike to take action.

The family speech good, but that's how Ike sees things. Not everyone will see it that way, and he probably understood that by the time RD rolled around. Those who weren't on board with that philosophy were welcome to leave. Is there a problem there? That's a lot more considerate than forcing some people to fight a war with laguz they are intolerate of.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Ownagepuffs

[Radiant head]

That's not to mention that their relationship dynamic is closer to bodyguard/bodyguard-ee than 'super-special girl romancing the bad boy' and it's blatant who is closer to Twilight.

It is, but I dunno if Micaiah/Sothe is that far from the latter Obviously not to the extent of Naesala/Leanne, where the former is obnoxious as hell in the whole quasi-Criss-Angel getup and wannabe bad boy shtick.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Radiant head

[Irysa]

Edit (sorry): Sephiran is up there with the Apostle and Holy Guard. Not that he really cared for them as much as say, Ranulf. Also I don't expect Ike to remember civilian #4 after 3 years.

I haven't insinuated that he valued them over Ranulf, because this isn't a question of what Ike values MORE. There's not just this flat choice of either allying with the Laguz or allying with Begnion, the point is there's the third option of trying to stop people being idiots, and Ike and Mist especially should care a lot more about the Medallion and the implications of another war starting up. The "the herons can sing it down" is just the most ludicrous plot contrivance that it's comparable to the Blood Contracts. "What about that thing that could cause the end of the world?" "Yeah don't worry, we've got it covered" "Okay". *medallion isn't mentioned again until it's too late lol!*

Did they actually invade Begnion? I thought they just went to war. I didn't pay much attention to part 3. At some point Begnion even tried to take over Crimea. That's reason enough for Ike to take action.

They went onto Begnion's own territory and fought their enemy there. It was an invasion.

The family speech good, but that's how Ike sees things. Not everyone will see it that way, and he probably understood that by the time RD rolled around. Those who weren't on board with that philosophy were welcome to leave. Is there a problem there? That's a lot more considerate than forcing some people to fight a war with laguz they are intolerate of.

You're dancing around the point of the criticism. The problem isn't that Ike lets people leave, it's that he seems to not care at all about intolerance in any capacity and just rolls with it. One can be pragmatic whilst still holding ideals...

Edited March 30, 2015 by Irysa

[Anacybele]

That's EXACTLY THE PROBLEM THOUGH. FE10 Ike DOESN'T develop or grow, he's just an entirely different character in so many regards. I'd be on board for a game where Ike's views are challenged and he develops, but he doesn't, FE10 is the same old boring hypocrite the entire time and there's no reasoning whatsoever to any of this entirely opposite philosophical angle. FE9 is a game where Ike goes on that journey and discovers what he really believes in and what he cares about, FE10 just gives us some guy who claims to be Ike and doesn't have anything to do with the man I knew from FE9.

I meant that he grew in PoR and between it and RD.

[Irysa]

Except there is absoloutely no context given for such changes in outlook, that's the entire problem! Dramatically changing a character's personality without giving any context to as to why and not even giving ANYTHING to infer as such is flat out shit writing. It's only been a couple of years, whilst age may dull "youthful idealism", his outlook is now a complete 180. That's just ridiculous.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Irysa

[Ownagepuffs]

How do you propose Ike stop 3 nations worth of pissed off Laguz?

Actually holy shit I just watched the intro to part 3 and you are all types of wrong.

Ike was reluctant to join in the effort because of Sanaki but Begnion fucking murdered a messenger, dude. That's an act that could start a war. They were also responsible for the Serenes massacre. Ike sympathized with their cause and joined them. Add this to the fact that he dislikes Begnion's nobles to begin with and their attempt to take over Crimea and you have a recipe for a very pissed off Ike. The way he saw it, the Laguz were in the right.

Anyway, wrt to intolerance, it's clear that he cares about about it otherwise he wouldn't have told the intolerant people to leave. That's my point. If he didn't care he would just let it run rampant. He made a pre emptive attempt to stop it immediately.

[Irysa]

How do you propose Ike stop 3 nations worth of pissed off Laguz?

I didn't say he would be able to stop them, I said he wouldn't be so nonchalant about it with "it's a job".

Ike was reluctant to join in the effort because of Sanaki but Begnion fucking murdered a messenger, dude. That's an act that could start a war. They were also responsible for the Serenes massacre. Ike sympathized with their cause and joined them. Add this to the fact that he dislikes Begnion's nobles to begin with and their attempt to take over Crimea and you have a recipe for a very pissed off Ike. The way he saw it, the Laguz were in the right.

Ike knows about the implications of what war does to random innocent bystanders more than anyone else there. Two wrongs don't make a right, accepting that "oh well, lets just go to war then" over that is unacceptable and contrived. The introductory narrative entirely contradicts his entire demeanour throughout the game and Ike never shows any reluctance whatsoever to fighting even his former allies from the Daein Army.

Anyway, wrt to intolerance, it's clear that he cares about about it otherwise he wouldn't have told the intolerant people to leave. That's my point. If he didn't care he would just let it run rampant. He made a pre emptive attempt to stop it immediately.

No, the point is that just accepting "well some people don't like it, whatever" is quite different from potentially expressing distaste as to the concept (which he does repeatedly in FE9, and he confronts people over it).

Edited March 30, 2015 by Irysa

[Anacybele]

Ike knows about the implications of what war does to random innocent bystanders more than anyone else there. Two wrongs don't make a right, accepting that "oh well, lets just go to war then" over that is unacceptable and contrived. The introductory narrative entirely contradicts his entire demeanour throughout the game and Ike never shows any reluctance whatsoever to fighting even his former allies from the Daein Army.

Because Ike is a blunt as hell dude. He may not show it easily, but I highly doubt he really wants to be fighting against his former allies. In fact, if memory serves, he tried to stop the fighting and say there's probably a way everybody could work things out peacefully, but Micaiah, being her oh-so-loyal self, said no and forced his group to fight hers anyway.

[Irysa]

You say Ike is blunt (he is) then say he hides how he feels. That's a contradiction right there...

I don't particularly like Mic, but at least she has something she believes in. I don't know what the hell FE10 Ike even stands for anymore.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Irysa

[Ownagepuffs]

It's not a job to Ike. It's a favor. He's very clearly invested in the war. Ike is aware how war affects bystanders, but he considers this one justified. I don't think Ike has to constantly show he cares for us to know he cares. Ranulf of Gallia came to him to ask his help personally. A close friend from a nation he owes much to asked him for help. I have a hard time believing Ike would turn that request down, to be honest.

Doesn't Ike try to reason with Daein but thanks to the blood pact they keep fighting and he keeps retaliating?

Ike doesn't have to express distaste. We know he dislikes it. Considering his expressed distaste at the term "branded" it's shown that his dislike for discrimination is still very much there. He likely made that request out of concern instead of just not caring.

Edit: as for what he stands for.... Lol Ike fights for his friends. Literally. That hasn't changed.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Ownagepuffs

[Anacybele]

Doesn't Ike try to reason with Daein but thanks to the blood pact they keep fighting and he keeps retaliating?

Yeah, this is what I was trying to mention above. But Micaiah being her ignorant, selfish self doesn't want to even consider that there might be another way to solve things without triggering the pact's effects. So Ike has no choice but to continue fighting, otherwise he'd effectively be surrendering and everybody in his group would die!

Edited March 30, 2015 by Anacybele

[Radiant head]

Yeah, have Micaiah attack Ike with Purge, and it will trigger a battle convo where he tries to reason with her.

God, the Blood Pact was such an awful plot device. I wish they came up with a more clever way to have the teams on opposing sides. I've been playing Final Fantasy Tactics, and they just do it so much better.

[Ownagepuffs]

It's not fair to criticize Mic for that. The blood pact makes it pretty clear that she can't talk about it. She was in between a rock and a hard place. It's brought up that Daein was doomed regardless.

[Anacybele]

But Daein wasn't doomed, and Micaiah later sided with Ike's party. So there obviously WAS a way around the pact's effects, she just didn't want to consider it when she should have.

I liked the idea of the blood pact, but in Micaiah's case, it was handled poorly.

[Radiant head]

Micaiah was only able to join together because Ashera put the whole world on hold.

Although apparently Naesala got around the blood pact by appealing to Sanaki, who "overruled" it. So basically Daein needed a lawyer who can actually, you know read contracts unlike their sorry excuse of a king, and all that conflict would have been prevented.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Radiant head

[Irysa]

the "way around it" was only doable beacuse of the medallion invoking itself. <_<

It's not fair to criticize Mic for that.

yeah but it's fair to criticise RD for having a shitty plot full of plot contrivances to force scenarios like that.

It's not a job to Ike. It's a favor. He's very clearly invested in the war. Ike is aware how war affects bystanders, but he considers this one justified. I don't think Ike has to constantly show he cares for us to know he cares. Ranulf of Gallia came to him to ask his help personally. A close friend from a nation he owes much to asked him for help. I have a hard time believing Ike would turn that request down, to be honest.

The war is not justified. The death of a messenger is highly regrettable but how many civilians of begnion do you think either got forcibly conscripted, had their homes upturned, or were cut down by stupid hothead Laguz like Skrimir? Not forgetting that most Laguz still don't like Beorc anyway so such actions aren't unlikely at all. Ike doesn't have to show he cares constantly, but he has to at least do SOMETHING or let his actions speak louder than his words, which they do not in Radiant Dawn. Most inference about Ike's character in Radiant Dawn has to be taken from Path of Radiance, and he doesn't behave anywhere near to the same way he does in Path of Radiance so this kind of inferrence is sketchy at best.

Doesn't Ike try to reason with Daein but thanks to the blood pact they keep fighting and he keeps retaliating?

The first time they fight he does nothing of the sort. Plus, check out his dialogue with Sothe.

Sothe: Commander Ike!
Ike: Look at you, Sothe. You’ve grown a lot. I almost forgot… You’re originally from Daein.
Sothe: I’m glad you remembered. I hope it helps explain why I’m here.
Ike: Did you find the person you were looking for?
Sothe: Yes. She commands this army.
Ike: The Maiden of Dawn?
Sothe: Please don’t call her by that ridiculous name. Her name is Micaiah.
Ike: I see.
Sothe: Commander, I… I didn’t want to see you like this.
Ike: But you don’t intend to retreat, do you?
Sothe: That’s right.
Ike: Sothe, before you challenge me, you better be ready never to see that girl again. Can you handle that?
Sothe: Wh-what?!
Ike: If you can’t, stay away from me. You’ll get no mercy, despite our past. I’m sorry, Sothe, but the choices we’ve both made have brought us to this. There’s no turning back now.
Sothe: I understand, Commander. And to answer your question… Yes, sir, I can handle that. Whenever you’re ready, Commander.

This happens the first time Ike personally fights Daein.

Ike doesn't have to express distaste. We know he dislikes it. Considering his expressed distaste at the term "branded" it's shown that his dislike for discrimination is still very much there. He likely made that request out of concern instead of just not caring.

For the last time, it's not that the request itself indicates not caring, it's the manner he delivers it. It's something he just accepts. Also you'll have to remind me where FE10 Ike shows distaste towards the term "branded" because I don't remember that being in the script.

Edit: as for what he stands for.... Lol Ike fights for his friends. Literally. That hasn't changed.

Actually he just fights and seems to go along with what people want him to do. There's no conviction or passion ever expressed anywhere. FE9 Ike fought for his friends and family, FE10 Ike just fights.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Irysa

[Anacybele]

Yeah, I do agree that Pelleas was pretty naive and stuff.

EDIT: But Ike is still fighting for his friends because Ranulf and the other laguz are his friends. He protected Elincia out of his own free will because she's his friend. And so on.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Anacybele

[DarkSage764]

I don't really like Heather, I never really used her though, so I don't really know too much about her..

[Sentacotus]

This is part of in my mind why PoR and RD are meant to be played back to back. One to understand the context of RD and know basically whats going on following the Mad King's War (although to RD's credit they actually don't do a bad job of this) but also to see how the characters have come into their own. Ike in FE9 is young and thrown into leadership under the worst of circumstances and is forced to learn his job quick and earn the respect of those who he leads. Throughout the war he has to make decisions without really having much experience to fall back on and numerous times he fucks up and nearly gets everyone killed. First instance was decding to stay in the fort on the border of Gallia allowing the Greil Mercs to get surrounded and nearly overwhelmed, second was insulting the dragon laguz when they were ship wrecked, third was insulting Sanaki in the palace. These are all used as kind of developmental points where Ike is supposed to learn from his mistakes. But how do you demonstrate that he has learned from his mistakes, gained experience, and become the leader he was meant to be? That's where RD comes in. Here its been 3 years and Ike has been in command of an army (like his father before him), reunited the rest of the Greil Mercenaries (rerecruiting Gatrie and earning the respect of guys like Shinon), and is a far more composed hardened leader in general (no more lashing out at nobles and politicians despite personal opinions which he still has and probably realizing that he has to make the tough decisions in a not so rosy "we are all family world").

In short, I kind of see PoR being the development of Ike and him BECOMING the hero he needs to be and RD from Part 3 on being about Ike effectively BEING that hero and leader in a time where the whole world is effectively threatened. RD is that part of the story that demonstrates that Ike has learned from his mistakes and living up to his father's legacy.

At least thats how I kinda interpret it.

Edited March 30, 2015 by LordTaco42

[Anacybele]

Shinon still hates Ike in RD, but I agree with your post there, Taco! I love Ike's story because of how much growth and development he goes through and it's one reason I love Ike. <3

Shinon says he hates Ike because he "gets handed everything and takes everything for granted." Ike says somewhere, I think in his support with Titania in PoR, that he "used to take everything for granted." Yeah, interesting stuff here...

Edited March 30, 2015 by Anacybele