video series FE6 Reverse Recruitment Low Turns

[Espinosa]

Yep, got both of these in the farthest room as well as all four items in the nearest one (Karel can't use the Light Brand just yet, though).

Though "Other" has 0 votes on the first poll, I gotta say Hugh has been the MVP of the run in the first few chapters (it especially showed in chapters 6-8, maps where fighting was actually really hard and nobody else could do it well enough). It's likely to change in the future but Hugh hasn't stopped gaining levels yet either.

Since I did pick up a Guiding Ring in my chapter 8 8-turn clear, I've been wondering if Hugh could use a promotion. Clarine is one magician I will definitely be promoting, but she comes just before the desert so I could probably afford to have her wait for the desert Guiding Ring Thany (Sofia) picks up. It makes sense to put the first ring to good use as well - the main candidates are Hugh and Saul (joining in Ray's place). Saul joins at 12/0 with B staves and can have 9 mag / 15 spd when promoted with mediocre 27/5/12 bulk (this looks a lot like my lv. 20 Lalum). That's more Physic range in the desert and also a chance to gain experience by fighting things. He can technically also use Warp in chapter 15 (Ellen can do it in 15x) and any fighting and mag-levelling he'd had until then is sure to be reflected in his Warp range. Clarine can do the same however.

One big advantage promoting Hugh grants is that 6 move makes it much easier for him to get to places without needing someone to carry him around, and he can restore anyone back to full health with the Heal staff - Cecilia and Yodel can do the same but have no enemy phase (and Cecilia is always at risk of getting doubled and/or OHKO'd).

The only argument I can see against promoting Hugh is that he'll never reach Warp considering the game he's in, he'll still be worse than Lugh with his HM bonuses, and the Guiding Ring for more Boots money. The question is, does Hugh's potential in chapters 8x-15 warrant the use of the ring on him?

So, promote Hugh y/n? He's sitting at 14.91/- right now, so there's no need to promote him immediately when the next level is so close, but it's sure to be pretty useful... some time? I mean, my current bosskilling options are still very limited at this point, as are combat options in general (there's a good reason why Hugh has been needed to clean enemies up so that I could move my units in the right directions and seize).

[momogeek2141]

By the time Saul will actually be able to use warp, you will have tons of fliers, and then Lugh joins the chapter after. Does Lugh have A Staves? If so then promote Saul. If not, give it to Hugh.

Edited April 16, 2015 by momogeek2141

[Yojinbo]

Lugh doesn't have A-Staves but there still isn't a point in promoting Hugh when Lugh joins as a sage with juicy HM bonuses. When I started to plan my LTC run I theorized that it'd be best to promote Saul and Clarine with the guiding rings and then just ditch Hugh. Though I wouldn't really have used Hugh much at all in the first place.

[momogeek2141]

I said the opposite. If he doesn't, promote Saul is what I meant.

[Yojinbo]

You edited the post lol. It said "if not give it to Lugh" which I assumed was a typo and you meant to say "give it to Hugh".

[momogeek2141]

Yep. The downsides of using a phone on SF.

[Espinosa]

Lugh will never be a warper either, but Clarine and Ellen should give me more warping than I'll need (albeit lacklustre compared to Niime's in vanilla).

Saul probably only has short-term use, I think, while I could use Hugh's combat again sometime. However, I could also use Hugh's unpromoted combat almost equally well (he'll actually stop doing things like OHKOing Mercs so that others can get the kill, which Sage!Hugh apparently does in 8x lmao) and keep the Guiding Ring for more cash, but that means no staves on a proficient combat unit and no 6 move.

[Yojinbo]

Now that I think about it you won't actually need Saul to use Warp at any point so you might as well leave him unpromoted. Ellen should be the main Warpbot because she has 14 base mag and a 50% growth for magic. I'd still promote Clarine though. But you could probably sell the leftover guiding ring for a pair of boots.

[Irysa]

Just sell the ring. There is no way you'll actually need a Sage during the Isles. It will only be marginally useful to have one in the desert on C14.

EDIT: To clarify, sell the SPARE ring (aka the Desert one). Having a promoted Clarine will likely be quite helpful. E Tomes though...

Though "Other" has 0 votes on the first poll, I gotta say Hugh has been the MVP of the run in the first few chapters (it especially showed in chapters 6-8, maps where fighting was actually really hard and nobody else could do it well enough). It's likely to change in the future but Hugh hasn't stopped gaining levels yet either.

I voted Other on the second poll but forgot to ever post and clarify, lol. I was expecting Astol to be kind of cool until I realised he has E swords for some fucked up reason. If you give him at least his old C back (and if he's replacing Klein, he should get A, hyuk hyuk) then I'd say he's pretty baller. Chad seems better though for having A I guess, but he has worse AS due to shittier con.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Irysa

[Lord Raven]

i'm pretty sure brigands and fighters in chapter 12 with hand axes or steel axes struggle to pull positive displayed hit on L20 dancers

Those aren't the only enemies in the game, a lot of what I'm referring to is post-Isles.

they also definitely have the bulk to survive one attack from any unpromoted enemy

That's why I said "all but two or three"

[Gryz]

I haven't really looked into how attack position is determined yet. But the targeting AI does look at the player units' attack/2 and range of the strongest weapon in inventory (doesn't have to be equipped like Irysa's example with Marcus)

Lyn with 8 strength and 5 mt iron sword: (8 + 5)/2 = 6
Sain with 13 strength, 6 mt javelin, and 10 mt steel lance: (13 + 10)/2 = 11
Tiles in only Lyn's range = 6
Tiles in only Sain's range = 11
Tiles in both Lyn's and Sain's ranges = 17

The targeting AI takes the value corresponding to attack position and divides by 8. It's possible the positioning AI also makes use of this attack/range map in determining where to attack from.

[dondon151]

Those aren't the only enemies in the game, a lot of what I'm referring to is post-Isles.

i did this thing where i chose one example to illustrate how ridiculous L20 dancers are on the whole

it's an effective method when the person with whom you're communicating assumes good faith and doesn't willingly miss the point

a L20 dancer has about as much avo as niime standing on a forest and way more bulk

Edited April 17, 2015 by dondon151

[Espinosa]

Interesting; I had no idea that the thing that determines AI's actions is calculations.

We've been arguing about L20 dancers being broken a lot, but they have to dance each other so much to get me the lowest-turn clears that they're probably hitting the level caps within the first few maps together. I also have a vague idea that they'll have to dance one another all the way across the map in 8x (circling around the enemies because of the way they are positioned), so ~L12 by the end of chapter 8x sounds very plausible.

I'll have to be editing off / speeding up their dances though, lol. Their not gaining any experience after chapter 7 anymore will actually speed up the process since that's one animation you don't have to look at.

[Lord Raven]

i did this thing where i chose one example to illustrate how ridiculous L20 dancers are on the whole

it's an effective method when the person with whom you're communicating assumes good faith and doesn't willingly miss the point

I think using Western Isles bandits is the worst way to do it because I could give my mother a lance, program her into the game, and she could dodge them. Neutralizing a Steel Lance's hit was good enough, but we're definitely not making the same point here.

My entire point was that they're still going to be 2HKO'd because 27 HP/6 defense and 30 HP/9 defense aren't very much (Lalum's bulk is only marginally better than Niime's, but her effective bulk ie including evade is better). I don't think Espinosa's gonna be doing the little bit of rigging necessary to have them dodge all these attacks every turn either, and something like an Aircalibur Mage will have 40-50 hit when they're not on a forest (and if anything those are the most important enemies to pull because they will have higher hit rate and 3HKO most of your other units).

Although, the advantage is that it's easier to get Dancers in space and not have to worry about the potential of them getting OHKO'd, although this is assuming like quick clears because there won't always be a forest tile and I don't think Espinosa's willing to burn and have them dodge just about everything. Pulling enemies is wasting dancers anyway.

Edited April 18, 2015 by Lord Raven

[Espinosa]

Bwahaha, just realised Elphin can carry Tate (as well as Lalum/Cecilia/Yodel/Sofia/Niime/Ray/Fir and I guess some others later but that's all kinda useless). No idea about the implications of this just yet, but maybe it will help me get a 3-turn clear of 8x (what I'm trying to achieve right now).

Speaking of later joiners, he'll be able to carry Chad (only unit who can steal the Delphi Shield), unpromoted Clarine (we do want her promoted most likely), Thany, Lugh (!), Ellen (dunno how important carrying a warper is), Fa (idk what this is for but we'll see).

If he takes a Body Ring, he can carry also Yuno (poor stats will remain poor but she's already quite close to being able to wield the Durandal so that's something to consider), Klein, unpromoted Hugh and Shin.

And it once again looks like Hugh is the best bosskiller for 8x, though I have no clue if I will have to promote him or not. Everyone is kinda underestimating him in this topic, but then again, you haven't seen the things he did in chapters 7/8 for me yet (you did see his chapter 4 performance which was... not that impressive in comparison I guess).

[Irysa]

Ellen (dunno how important carrying a warper is)

Carrying someone who can do decent long range rescue staff stuff can save warps.

Edited April 18, 2015 by Irysa

[bottlegnomes]

Interesting run so far. One thing that's been bugging me, and I suppose this should be directed at Paper if he remembers, is why Karel has any stats that aren't zero, save HP obviously, even assuming he was 10/19 in vanilla.

Definitely looking forward to the future chapters.

[Espinosa]

3-turned chapter 8x exactly as planned. It looks like promoting Zeiss as soon as possible shouldn't hurt his stats considering how high they already are, but we'll see later if there's any need for an immediate promotion.

Now, before I get any further into the playthrough I'm curious if somebody can help me edit out the Fog of War from all the maps where it exists. Simply so that I can revise strategies while being able to look at the enemies. I could just alternate between two ROMs whenever that's applicable, keeping in mind you can't target enemies you don't see.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Espinosa

[Irysa]

Use Nightmare and FE6 modules.

dist > Nightmare 2.jar > select the FE6 rom you want to edit > open module > FE6 Nightmare Modules > chapter data editor > chapter data editor.nmm > second drop down list to Chapter 9 > Fog Vision Distance to 0 > back to main Nightmare window and Save as

[Espinosa]

Thanks for the instructions; the work is done!

Also, prior to any editing my chapter 7 clear is more than 46 minutes long because of all the Lalum/Elphin dancing. It should be 15-16 minutes long post-production but I haven't made up my mind how I'll go about the editing - I'll definitely show off all their level-ups though.

[Lord Raven]

Interesting run so far. One thing that's been bugging me, and I suppose this should be directed at Paper if he remembers, is why Karel has any stats that aren't zero, save HP obviously, even assuming he was 10/19 in vanilla.

Definitely looking forward to the future chapters.

Paper's answer to this, I believe, was to ensure that Karel wasn't 100000% powerless. Instead he's now 1000% powerless.

This hack was made in ye olden days. I, personally, am horrified by the lack of Convoy Zeiss.

[Yojinbo]

The lack of Wyvern Merlinus is an even bigger bummer.

[Espinosa]

Getting rid of the Fog of War (i.e. setting the digit to 0 in Nightmare) seems to also remove the preparations menu and with it the ability to change units' pre-battle positions.

Help?

[Irysa]

idk. it might have something to do with the RR patch itself messing with default values. it works fine for my vanilla japanese rom.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Irysa

[Espinosa]

Uploaded chapter 6:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZ12-poxx4w

4 turns as expected, with some very nice level-ups (would've got a +mag/spd level-up on Hugh if I'd had any idea at all how much I would need his help in the subsequent maps).

Edited April 19, 2015 by Espinosa