There has to be something Morally Wrong/Odd about siding with Hoshido

[NekoKnight]

True. I mean, just because you're "peace loving" doesn't have to mean that you don't have a military.

It's just that, historically speaking, most "peace loving" nations have not had militaries. The most obvious examples of groups that never started conflicts would be native americans (although they had warriors, they had no formal armies, and most tribes were the essence of peace loving) and monasteries (although they were frequently attacked, monasteries never employed any sort of military protection).

I'm just saying that generally speaking, I've never heard of a historical example of a group considering themselves to be "peace loving" and actually having a military. In the past, "peace loving" was generally considered to be a bad thing. Can you imagine the Romans calling themselves "peace loving?" Or the Germans? Or the Greeks? I mean, many Greek city states didn't even have armies, but they still didn't call themselves "peace-loving."

Let's put it this way, a lot of nations, particularly in modern times "love peace" simply because not having your citizens slaughtered and your industry razed to the ground is pretty rad. That said, having a standing army is a important deterrent to those who don't share your peace loving sentiment. Peace loving =/ Pacifist

Modern day Japan has a self defense force (it would be a full blown army if it wasn't blocked by their constitution) but it's probably one of the most peace loving places in the world. Maybe it's not realistic for ancient nations to be both peace-loving and also have a warrior culture but this is fantasy.

BTW, NekoKnight, I keep reading your tagline as saying "Lovely tities... what else do you claim to be?"

The mind sees what it wants to.

Edited May 16, 2015 by NekoKnight

[goodperson707]

^ so you want fire emblem to be a simplified mass appeal franchise?

But that said i agree that you can want peace and still have a army or agree go be neutral and also have an army and or an elite fighting force.

Edited May 16, 2015 by goodperson707

[Tsunami922]

I think siding against Camilla is bad enough.

[RandomSwordmaster]

I think siding against Camilla is bad enough.

I know T_T

[Jester Capri]

Considering Aqua is pretty much in Kamui's position, Hoshido is equally guilty of taking away their kin. While Garon seemingly has evil intentions with Kamui, Hoshido's true motives are currently unknown. Perhaps both of them were kidnapped from their respective kin to actually start a war. I'm not sure if Hoshido did it because Nohr did it first, but Hoshido and Nohr are nonetheless equally guilty of kidnapping kin. Whether Hoshido's intentions are evil or not are unknown at the moment, making their whole Aqua kidnapping thingie one of the only known wrong things they've done.

[blah the Prussian]

Considering Aqua is pretty much in Kamui's position, Hoshido is equally guilty of taking away their kin. While Garon seemingly has evil intentions with Kamui, Hoshido's true motives are currently unknown. Perhaps both of them were kidnapped from their respective kin to actually start a war. I'm not sure if Hoshido did it because Nohr did it first, but Hoshido and Nohr are nonetheless equally guilty of kidnapping kin. Whether Hoshido's intentions are evil or not are unknown at the moment, making their whole Aqua kidnapping thingie one of the only known wrong things they've done.

Taking POWs is not wrong, especially if they took her after Nohr took Kamui.

[Venterqua]

Taking POWs is not wrong, especially if they took her after Nohr took Kamui.

Well, that depends on perspective as I'm sure Aqua would be inclined to disagree with you :p

And I'm not sure if Hoshido and Nohr were yet at war when the kidnappings took place.

[blah the Prussian]

Well, that depends on perspective as I'm sure Aqua would be inclined to disagree with you :p

And I'm not sure if Hoshido and Nohr were yet at war when the kidnappings took place.

Aqua is pretty obviously biased. To have an objective perspective, you can't really be affected positively or negatively by an event.

[Venterqua]

Aqua is pretty obviously biased. To have an objective perspective, you can't really be affected positively or negatively by an event.

How or if an event affects you doesn't necessarily dictate whether it's right or wrong. A child was kidnapped and held prisoner. While Kamui being kidnapped first would make the action more understandable, I'm still not going to describe it as right or not wrong.

[NekoKnight]

Forgive me if this is seen as a necro but I recently read a fan-theory about the possible moral grayness of Hoshido that I liked.

Now that we've seen the map of FE14, it looks like Nohr's capital is a giant whole in the ground and Hoshido's capital is apparently a island floating in the sky. Coincidence? Probably not. So here's the theory (credited to some anonymous person). Long ago before the start of FE14, there was some magical artifact (that draws power from the legendary dragon both factions worship) that provided light and prosperity to the lands that was located where present day Nohr is. At some point, the ancestors of the Hoshidans wanted this power to themselves so they used magic (Dragon's Vein) to steal it. The artifact is bound to the land itself so they had to literally uproot the entire area and move it to what is now Hoshido. Without the artifact's power, the proto-Nohr fell into darkness and ruin. Angered, the Nohr ancestors lead an invasion to retake the artifact from the Hoshidans but as they were crossing the mountains into Hoshido, the Hoshidans used the artifact's powers to split the mountains apart, creating the giant chasm that we can see on the map. The Nohrians, defeated, retreat back to Nohr where resentment of Hoshido brews for centuries.

Then we cut to the present day where the situation in Nohr has reached a breaking point. The lack of resources in Nohr is leading to the country collapsing on itself and devouring the royal family. The Hoshidans have since forgotten the origin of their capital and the source of their prosperity, but the Nohrians have not. With this, Garon captures the most powerful Dragon's Vein user (Kamui) and plans to use him as the spearhead to conquest of Hoshido.

It makes me sad that Nohr's motivations for invasion will likely them just being greedy and Hoshido being morally flawless.

[chihiroos]

Man that's a good theory if I've ever heard one. But it's a bit similar to awakening where the past aggressors of Ylisse were already dead and the current generation was "perfect." I know ignoring a country's problems, especially when it's collapsing in on itself while you're swimming in resources isn't a good thing but Hoshido still wouldn't really have done anything wrong, even more so if they forget who caused Nohr's problem in the first place.

Another theory I've seen floating around is that Mikoto willingly sent her husband to Nohr, knowing the situation would not end well so she could become ruler, though what she didn't take account of was that Sumeragi, (her husband), would take Kamui with him and she would let someone very powerful slip from her fingers. Although I have to say the theory has quite few holes in it but until we get more information discussing this is fun isn't it?

[LoboKD001]

I like the theory about Marx and Kamui trying to usurp Garon. Plus, I remember reading somewhere in Serenes Forest where Marx and his siblings have their own thoughts about the invasion so it might be true or similar to the real story.

Regarding about Mikoto causing the death of his husband for the throne, wouldn't that make the description of "being a peace-loving queen" a lie? I mean, didn't this came from the character description from the official website?

Then again, I still prefer the queen being secretly evil...

And is it safe to assume Garon's wife died naturally like sickness or age? Because no on mentioned her. If not, maybe Hoshido did something to her...

Edited June 6, 2015 by LoboKD001

[NekoKnight]

Man that's a good theory if I've ever heard one. But it's a bit similar to awakening where the past aggressors of Ylisse were already dead and the current generation was "perfect." I know ignoring a country's problems, especially when it's collapsing in on itself while you're swimming in resources isn't a good thing but Hoshido still wouldn't really have done anything wrong, even more so if they forget who caused Nohr's problem in the first place.

A bit similar, but the key difference is Plegia (or perhaps just the Gangrel and those loyal to him) is invading mostly out of spite rather than necessity, as it would be the case for Nohr in this scenario. Modern Hoshido technically having done nothing wrong is actually what makes their moral greyness. While they haven't personally caused Nohr grief, their ancestors did and they are still in possession of something that belongs to Nohr. We, the players would know about how important the artifact is for Nohr, even if no one in Hoshido wants to acknowledge it.

[The DanMan]

Forgive me if this is seen as a necro but I recently read a fan-theory about the possible moral grayness of Hoshido that I liked.

Now that we've seen the map of FE14, it looks like Nohr's capital is a giant whole in the ground and Hoshido's capital is apparently a island floating in the sky. Coincidence? Probably not. So here's the theory (credited to some anonymous person). Long ago before the start of FE14, there was some magical artifact (that draws power from the legendary dragon both factions worship) that provided light and prosperity to the lands that was located where present day Nohr is. At some point, the ancestors of the Hoshidans wanted this power to themselves so they used magic (Dragon's Vein) to steal it. The artifact is bound to the land itself so they had to literally uproot the entire area and move it to what is now Hoshido. Without the artifact's power, the proto-Nohr fell into darkness and ruin. Angered, the Nohr ancestors lead an invasion to retake the artifact from the Hoshidans but as they were crossing the mountains into Hoshido, the Hoshidans used the artifact's powers to split the mountains apart, creating the giant chasm that we can see on the map. The Nohrians, defeated, retreat back to Nohr where resentment of Hoshido brews for centuries.

Then we cut to the present day where the situation in Nohr has reached a breaking point. The lack of resources in Nohr is leading to the country collapsing on itself and devouring the royal family. The Hoshidans have since forgotten the origin of their capital and the source of their prosperity, but the Nohrians have not. With this, Garon captures the most powerful Dragon's Vein user (Kamui) and plans to use him as the spearhead to conquest of Hoshido.

It makes me sad that Nohr's motivations for invasion will likely them just being greedy and Hoshido being morally flawless.

Interesting theory.

However, we already known Nohr is experiencing a drought. And just recently, on a re-play of Awakening, I discovered this quote:

Paralogue 3, Frederick: "They say they treasure peace, yet the peace found from behind barricades is no peace I would want."

Since Hoshido is based off of fuedal Japan, I'm holding my breath for something like this.

[blah the Prussian]

The theory, while interesting, brings up the question of just how is Nohr the more powerful country in this scenario?

[NekoKnight]

The theory, while interesting, brings up the question of just how is Nohr the more powerful country in this scenario?

Centuries of relative peace have dulled Hoshido's edge perhaps? Like isolationist Japan, they had peace within their country but everyone else was developing their technology and expanding their influence. I was actually developing my own head canon that Nohr has been focusing on some serious R&D (powerful magic and better steel) without Hoshido realizing that they are planning for a total war (as opposed to raids and skirmishes).

I don't find Nohr being a powerhouse very credible either but that's a problem even with the confirmed story details.

Edited June 6, 2015 by NekoKnight

[chihiroos]

Ah thanks for explaining NekoKnight, I've got high hopes that its something like this because really there's no such thing as a perfect country.

Desperation can be a powerful weapon. Hoshido seems like its under the illusion that their peace can last forever. I also agree that Nohr seems to have been developing faster than Hoshido for the past couple of years, as if they realized magic is a powerful weapon and started to study it more. Most of the magic users we've seen from Hoshido appear to come from clans while in Nohr we have a royal member that is well versed in magic, of course this could also be for diversity.

[dragonlordsd]

I've been doubtful of Nohr's "powerhouse empire" status ever since the beginning. It seems incredibly illogical considering all the facts. In all of the videos, the two sides seem easily matched. I suppose you could argue that Hoshido hasn't developed as much, but if they still have blademasters like Ryouma and Kazahana, as well as active ninja, it makes that seem unlikely.

[IGdood]

A harsh environment breeds hardy warriors who (with a little training) and overpower the lesser soldiers of more civilized kingdoms with their ferocity.

[blah the Prussian]

Technology actually is a really valid point; Hoshido, being peace loving, had no incentive to develop their weapons further. For Nohr, where every day is a struggle to survive, so you need to develop; natural selection is at work. Its kind of like how Europe had more wars than Asia, which was dominated by China, so when Europe and Asia met, Europe won all the wars for a while.

[dragonlordsd]

Technology actually is a really valid point; Hoshido, being peace loving, had no incentive to develop their weapons further. For Nohr, where every day is a struggle to survive, so you need to develop; natural selection is at work. Its kind of like how Europe had more wars than Asia, which was dominated by China, so when Europe and Asia met, Europe won all the wars for a while.

Good point. But I doubt we'll see that reflected in the story.

Would be interesting, though.

[Chrosion]

I saw this mentioned in another topic and it was an interesting theory, (might've added something onto it) what if Mikoto (Hoshido exalt) traded Kamui to Garon in exchange for killing her husband and making it seem like Nohr did it, so she can become the exalt. Maybe "peace-loving Hoshido" just means they're sneaky about how they go about things so they seem like that.

[Lawful Angry]

I saw this mentioned in another topic and it was an interesting theory, (might've added something onto it) what if Mikoto (Hoshido exalt) traded Kamui to Garon in exchange for killing her husband and making it seem like Nohr did it, so she can become the exalt. Maybe "peace-loving Hoshido" just means they're sneaky about how they go about things so they seem like that.

That's one way i'd like it to be, but i think it's highly unlikelly that could be the case, knowing FE.

But who knows... Hope is the last to die, so maybe they will go Schrödinger with the game and make it that way in one of the paths.

Ahh, who am i kidding..?

Edited June 6, 2015 by Lawful Angry

[chihiroos]

Do we actually know why Nohr wants war though? Is there a confirmed reason for it? I know Nohr doesn't have a lot in terms of food and crops right? I would have assumed it was because citizens struggled to live like this and it couldn't go on for much longer but Garon doesn't seem like the type to care for his people, not really.

Also if Mikoto could come up with plans like that I doubt she would give up a child that could write literally, move mountains, it also leaves the question of how Aqua was raised by Hoshido instead of Nohr.

[dragonlordsd]

Do we actually know why Nohr wants war though? Is there a confirmed reason for it? I know Nohr doesn't have a lot in terms of food and crops right? I would have assumed it was because citizens struggled to live like this and it couldn't go on for much longer but Garon doesn't seem like the type to care for his people, not really.

Also if Mikoto could come up with plans like that I doubt she would give up a child that could write literally, move mountains, it also leaves the question of how Aqua was raised by Hoshido instead of Nohr.

The biggest question we don't know the answer to is who struck first. (Lol, I keep thing of the starwars "han shoots first")

Did Hoshido strike first or did Nohr? Awakening did something interesting in that it was Ylisse that struck first, and essentially went all Spanish Inquisition on their neighbors, but unfortunately, that whole subplot got really glossed over.

That was my biggest disappointment in Awakening, was the fact that Chrom never had to face up to how evil his father was. Every other game in the series has had great plotlines with that (Eliwood suspecting his father of betrayal, Ike learning the truth about his father) but in Awakening, it was completely left hanging. Gangrel taunts him once, but no one ever actually confronts him about it.