Unusual character gender ratio

[Mayus]

How about it turns out that both royal lines must be wiped out to bring on a new order for the continent?

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

i don't think we need anymore tumblr buzzwords in this thread

How about it turns out that both royal lines must be wiped out to bring on a new order for the continent?

i wouldn't mind seeing this as the third route, it'd be a nice change from "both sides team up to fight the greater evil"

question is, who would you even recruit? maybe third route only characters?

[IceBuster573]

Are people really having that much doubts about Hoshido Queen not being Emm 2.0? Call me overconfident, but I think it's guaranteed.

Edited May 4, 2015 by IceBuster573

[Terrador]

Rapier: people like characters who don't represent them constantly. But having representative characters exist is important to not promote, intentionally or not, a racist or sexist paradigm.

[goodperson707]

I don't see why we cant have a possible pacifist ruler who actually is a good person but is woefully not suited for leading a country in open warfare, but call me cynical I think it will be unavoidable that even if that person is a strong character with flaws that the story suitably displays, she will still be derided by some people for being Emm 2.0 and that some people will find any valid or invalid reason to hate/dislike her cause she is like Emm who is bad, who is from awakening which is bad, therefore emm 2.0 is bad. I hope im wrong but im not hopeful.

[Terrador]

707, you're right. People are gonna hate for stupid reasons and waifu for stupid reasons in pretty much every media. Facts of life.

[Thor Odinson]

I actually had a eerily similar coversation, where i was of the point of view that the numbers of representation didn't matter that much and that it wont affect my choice of media, but i was too insensitive so i ended up choosing apologizing via pm (and had a nice conversation with that person to boot) i still do believe the exact numbers dont matter as much as the content, and that numbers won't stop me from enjoying a peice of media if it isnt offensive, but i do also believe that casual/notso casual sexism exists nearly everywhere, and that a lot more people are affected by it than i could know, though i do hope it will cease, hopefully in my lifetime, but the inner cynic in me knows that is not likely to happen though i wish otherwise.

I feel like a strict exact 50/50 isn't entirely necessary but something roughly close over/under is fine, as long as it's not too skewed.

Are people really having that much doubts about Hoshido Queen not being Emm 2.0? Call me overconfident, but I think it's guaranteed.

I don't see why we cant have a possible pacifist ruler who actually is a good person but is woefully not suited for leading a country in open warfare,

I don't think it's bad to have, but the problem with Emm is that her actions was painted as more or less saintly even though they're terrible decisions. I think if we have hoshido queen as emm 2.0 in personality, then I want to present her actions in a less glorified light. It's not the idea of Emm entirely that I'm against (although i don't like having character copies so close to each other in release time) but rather how the world reacted to her. Like if her actions wasn't something that was optimal during wartime then the game should not paint it as an all good saintly decision with no ramifications.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

pretty much what Thor said on this matter, there's nothing wrong with Emm being peaceful, what was wrong is her terrible decisions being treated as saintly and positive.

more or less the game was telling you 'stick your hand in a blender and then jump into a shark pool, this is the right thing to do"

[IceBuster573]

As I said, guaranteed she's not going to be another martyr in the name of peace. You can tease me later about this if I'm wrong.

[goodperson707]

ld

I don't think it's bad to have, but the problem with Emm is that her actions was painted as more or less saintly even though they're terrible decisions. I think if we have hoshido queen as emm 2.0 in personality, then I want to present her actions in a less glorified light. It's not the idea of Emm entirely that I'm against (although i don't like having character copies so close to each other in release time) but rather how the world reacted to her. Like if her actions wasn't something that was optimal during wartime then the game should not paint it as an all good saintly decision with no ramifications.

i kinda think that emm being seen as having no flaws is kinda exaggerated your main characters are kinda predisposed to like Emm, and after shes dead there not about to deride her name afterward, (what do you expect someone to say you know what chrom i think your dead sister made stupid decisions)i guess the plegians deserting after her death is a bit much but she seemed to be the target of pentup hatred by the plegians for the actions of her father and they likely believed emm to be the source of their issues I'm not surprised an single action managed to move them and from their rumour and gossip takes hold

[Thor Odinson]

@IceBuster573

sorry I misread a not in a statement and thought you were talking about Hoshido Queen will be another martyr type; I apologize for that

@goodperson707

But they could at least told her that nah, going back is a bad idea after Cordelia's squad just sacrificed themselves to let her escape, like nobody said something about it? Even one person could've told her no, even if she doesn't listen to them

Like she could've been done a lot better, she could've been really interesting

it's all about the execution of the idea and FE:A didn't do a good job with it

Edited May 4, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[goodperson707]

I assume you mean going back? I think Chrom and/or Frederick (maybe phila too) did say it was a bad plan but still one badly done part does not a bad character make. I think she was a good peace time leader but she did have flaws but who dosen't?

[Thor Odinson]

I assume you mean going back? I think Chrom and/or Frederick (maybe phila too) did say it was a bad plan but still one badly done part does not a bad character make. I think she was a good peace time leader but she did have flaws but who dosen't?

the problem isn't having flaws, but flaws should be presented more like flaws.

I don't mind Emm's baseline character I just want it presented in a more-in-depth way.

Like there's just bad ideas for characters and there's bad executions of otherwise could've been great characters, and tbh a lot of Awakening's cast fell under the latter, but I hope it's not too much to ask in better depth in the execution of the cast.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[Florete]

Just finished purging some less-than-okay posts. Try not to stray too far off-topic or get spammy.

[Mayus]

i wouldn't mind seeing this as the third route, it'd be a nice change from "both sides team up to fight the greater evil"

Yeah. Even with a threat to both kingdoms, that doesn't mean they will ever team up. Der Langrisser starts with a conflict between 3 factions (Army of Light, Rayguard, and the Army of Darkness as the threat to both). The AoL fights the other two, the Kaiser (Rayguard's ruler) is working with Boser (the AoD's leader) until he has all that he wants, and Boser is also using Rayguard. This is before Erwin comes on the scene. And he can reject the 3 factions, leading his own.

Even if the kingdoms did team up, it could be against Kamui or the faction he has joined.

question is, who would you even recruit? maybe third route only characters?

Kamui could recruit mercenaries, foreigners to both kingdoms, and maybe non-humans. Edited May 4, 2015 by Mayus

[Dark Sage]

I feel like a strict exact 50/50 isn't entirely necessary but something roughly close over/under is fine, as long as it's not too skewed.

Skewing can work better in some cases depending on the setting or context; like I would not expect a story set in the Dominican Republic during the 1960s to have many white people and I'd be ok with that (the Dominican Republic was and still is a nation whose citizens are predominantly dark-skinned).

Also man, the blowup in this topic reminds me why I usually don't talk about this stuff online. I know this stuff can be emotionally charged, but it really is true from my experience that cooler heads prevail.

I don't think it's bad to have, but the problem with Emm is that her actions was painted as more or less saintly even though they're terrible decisions. I think if we have hoshido queen as emm 2.0 in personality, then I want to present her actions in a less glorified light. It's not the idea of Emm entirely that I'm against (although i don't like having character copies so close to each other in release time) but rather how the world reacted to her. Like if her actions wasn't something that was optimal during wartime then the game should not paint it as an all good saintly decision with no ramifications.

Personally I really do hope there's a bit more of moral dilemnas and shadiness on the part of the protagonists (that's actually treated as such). It's probably due to the games and movies I've been exposed to but it would be nice for a change if instead of a more romantic view on war, it goes for a more "war is hell" kind of thing.

In a sense, if the Hoshido ruler is more like Emmeryn, it would be interesting if she refuses to compromise her ideals but often finds that it has unintended consequences on her people. Similarly someone like Max would be the type who wants to make his country better and will do some really awful things reluctantly to bring the changes about. That kind of behavior has unintentional consequences (see: the French Revolution, Cuban Revolution, the Russian Revolution of 1914, the 1980 Zimbabwe revolution, etc.).

Like, I know it likely won't happen, but that type of situation and those types of characters could really lead to something memorable.

[Thor Odinson]

Skewing can work better in some cases depending on the setting or context; like I would not expect a story set in the Dominican Republic during the 1960s to have many white people and I'd be ok with that (the Dominican Republic was and still is a nation whose citizens are predominantly dark-skinned).

I do agree. My roughly 50/50 thing is more directed at more general contexts and especially fantasy, I should clarify, and context definitely should be taken into account.

Personally I really do hope there's a bit more of moral dilemnas and shadiness on the part of the protagonists (that's actually treated as such). It's probably due to the games and movies I've been exposed to but it would be nice for a change if instead of a more romantic view on war, it goes for a more "war is hell" kind of thing.

In a sense, if the Hoshido ruler is more like Emmeryn, it would be interesting if she refuses to compromise her ideals but often finds that it has unintended consequences on her people. Similarly someone like Max would be the type who wants to make his country better and will do some really awful things reluctantly to bring the changes about. That kind of behavior has unintentional consequences (see: the French Revolution, Cuban Revolution, the Russian Revolution of 1914, the 1980 Zimbabwe revolution, etc.).

Like, I know it likely won't happen, but that type of situation and those types of characters could really lead to something memorable.

This would be really cool to see. If only.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[Snowy_One]

I've never understood why a male-dominated cast is the standard; does the gender of characters really matter in a good story? I know most games are usually marketed towards young men, but I can't recall ever thinking "damn, I'm playing as a woman, this detracts from my experience!". Playing as Samus, or going up against Kreia, the best character of any video game, is epic, and their genders have absolutely nothing to do with that.

It varies from game to game. For Fire Emblem I think it's a combination of the following.

1) It's a fantasy setting. Yes, I know that magic exists and all that, but notice that women are usually mages, healers, archers, or generally set up as characters who don't have to get down and mighty? This is because, in a game where might = right a bit too often, it's simply far easier to imagine men as the aggressive, assertive, warriors. Doesn't help that history sets it up as this as men were usually the front-line fighters and women only rarely fought (ironically when they did it's usually noteworthy, but that may be because women fought so rarely that even a bumbling clutz of a posh noble managing to kill a soldier would be noteworthy and the guy who has fought on the front line in six battles and survived is just doing his job).

2) Male leads are still, sadly, the norm. It's sad to look at steam and realize that 'female protagonist' is as big a thing as '4X' in terms of figuring out if you want a game or not. With FE it's the same and, while it's female characters often end up fairly strong and capable, they're USUALLY second-string to the main male lead. Chrom to Lucina, Elincia/Micaiah to Ike, Lyn to Eliwood, etc. Eirika is the only FE character I'd argue was actually 100% the main lord, but even then it was sort of a split-lead. Course this would only explain one or two characters, not the gender ration.

3) Male/female supports are expected to be romantic. This is an odd one but, yea, it seems that, barring a few specific situations (and FE10), when a male and female support each other and don't have a specific reason to not be in love with each other, they're almost pressured into a paired ending. Male/male and female/female can be varied and drastically different, but male/female are almost expected to be romantic. This can tilt people away from wanting a larger cast of female characters.

4) Women are expected to be special. Which was more noteworth? Amelia or Ewan? I'm sure some stat-people are going to pick one over the other for pure statistical purposes, but that aside... while both were sort of the same Amelia was set up as this person who we're supposed to sympathize with. She's an enemy soldier at first, but she's also a raw recruit, fairly nice and innocent, and clearly designed to make the player want to recruit her. Meanwhile Ewan? Ummm... Errr... He can promote to a Shaman? I think? Maybe? It's a lot easier to remember someone like Neimi or Marisa (the latter of whom is supposed to be an amazing assassin) than Artur or Cormag. It can be hard making every girl special or stand-out in someway but a male character who is just par? Eh.

5) GOOD OLD SEXISM! YEEEHAW! DEMS WOMENS DUN BELONG ON DA FRONT LINE LITTLE BROTHA AND BELONG IN THE KITCHEN WHERE I CAN GOES AND BEATS DEM UP WHEN DEY DUN PREPARED MY HAM SANDYWITCHES JUST RIGHT! Oh? That swordsmaster girl who just ripped through half the enemy forces and the girl on the flying pony? Well... we have a quota to reach and the unions will get mad if we touch them... BUT NO ONE ELSE CARES ABOUT THE OTHERS! Wait... How is she beating the enemy general to death with his own decapitated arms? THAT'S A MANS JOB! AND I AM A *gets punched before finishing joke*

FE's a lot better than plenty of other games and does quite a bit in making ACTUAL female characters without getting preachy or condescending about it; but aside from Awakening which probably had its male/female ration near-equal due to marriages, it's probably still gonna favor men a bit more on the whole then women.

[euklyd]

3) Male/female supports are expected to be romantic. This is an odd one but, yea, it seems that, barring a few specific situations (and FE10), when a male and female support each other and don't have a specific reason to not be in love with each other, they're almost pressured into a paired ending. Male/male and female/female can be varied and drastically different, but male/female are almost expected to be romantic. This can tilt people away from wanting a larger cast of female characters.

ah yes, this explains why so many male characters in FE6 had paired endings with females that they could support

I was wondering about that, thank you for explaining it to me

(as a less absurd example, there are LOTS of examples of opposite-sex supports that don't result in a paired ending in the GBA FEs in general (many of them not even being romantic), and some opposite-sex paired endings that aren't even romantic)

Edited May 4, 2015 by Euklyd

[ENS]

Unfortunately I arrive late at the party. However, hoping to not spam an argument which is already passing, I would say something.

In first, I say I agree completely with all lady Thor said.

I am a man, uh.

In second, I would to point out one thing: regardless of how you are convinced of how can be strong women, let's use men as examples: you see knights and generals armors, fighters, pirates, zerkes and warriors axes? Merc and Heroes swords too? Well, those weapons and armors do not exist.

Not only that: men can't move in an armor like generals, and also in knight's altough they seem less heavy. Men can't swing merc huge swords, and not let's start to talk about that ridicoulos axes, please.

Only steroids (A LOT of steroids) can give you Superman's physic (but still not the ability to swing properly that shit), and a woman too with them can have it.

Look at bodybuilders: real soldiers, or athletes don't have their physic, why? Because it is an unnatural thing, and useless for real life situations.

Except if you shot put or sumo. XD

All physics we see for men in cartoons, or comics, or whatever the society is throwing at us are a lie.

And all the big huge pile of steel we see in Fire Emblem (and 98% of fantasy settings) are totally bullshit.

Have a nice day.

Edited May 4, 2015 by ENS

[FrostyFireMage]

FE is pretty romanticized and traditional in terms of character design, so I doubt we'll be seeing any overly buff female characters unless IS decides to make FE more Game of Thrones-ish.

[Philranger]

FE is pretty romanticized and traditional in terms of character design, so I doubt we'll be seeing any overly buff female characters unless IS decides to make FE more Game of Thrones-ish.

This. I mean who's the "buffest" female character we've had? Probably Nailah, but even then she's pretty comparable to Muarim (in terms of looking buff).

Then RD/POR is kinda short on characters who look straight jacked besides the Laguz kings not named Naesala, Largo, and RD Ike.

[Thor Odinson]

Echidna had some actual biceps

Flavia's build is still on the thinner side, but she has very defined musculature, so that's still a step above.

Meg's build is actually a legit build for some lifters, superheavyweight class tend to have more body fat but it's still all muscle underneath.

And it's not like Fire Emblem hasn't made women who may not look like they lift, but are strong as fuck, either. Look at Cherche with her taming dragons at 9 and +3 str modifier on par with Vaike. Of course, I'd prefer if they did make some who looks like they lift because having 90% of the female cast with the same build is really fucking boring design-wise, especially compared to the male cast, who gets a decent range. I'm kinda sick of designers sticking to the same paradigm over and over again.

[Rapier]

pretty much what Thor said on this matter, there's nothing wrong with Emm being peaceful, what was wrong is her terrible decisions being treated as saintly and positive.

more or less the game was telling you 'stick your hand in a blender and then jump into a shark pool, this is the right thing to do"

This time around we'll have a new writer. I doubt they will make the same mistake as the old one. My views of Hoshido is that, while they're peaceful, they know very well how to fight, differently from Emmeryn, who was a pacifist idealist who paid for her views.

I might sound like Hater #460, but Awakening lost a lot of potential because the writer did not explore it. Emmeryn could've been a very interesting character if she didn't have the depth of a 1D character.

pretty much what Thor said on this matter, there's nothing wrong with Emm being peaceful, what was wrong is her terrible decisions being treated as saintly and positive.

I think there was something wrong with Emm being a strict term pacifist. It was her only defining trait. Compare her to Elincia, who as also pacific, but did not falter in stopping Ludveck's rebellion when she needed to do her job. Emm however was one dimensional.

[Thor Odinson]

I would not mind if we get an Elincia-like (but not identical to) queen. Elincia was really great.