Unusual character gender ratio

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

I don't see any reason to identify with how many male or female characters are in the game. Much more important factors, such as quality of writing, should be given more weight. It's not really progress to change something to have more diverse characters or more women, especially media. It's just different.

pretty much this.

its the main reason why i haven't given a damn about bioware in a long time, despite being a former fan.

[Florete]

I don't see any reason to identify with how many male or female characters are in the game. Much more important factors, such as quality of writing, should be given more weight. It's not really progress to change something to have more diverse characters or more women, especially media. It's just different.

Unfortunately, that's not the world we live in. Giving more importance to women in media very much is progress.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Unfortunately, that's not the world we live in. Giving more importance to women in media very much is progress.

as long as its done well, otherwise its pretty awful.

Metriod other m anyone?

what i'm saying is, you can't put a girl with a vay jay jay as a main lead and say "this alone makes this game good and progressive" cause if done wrong, it sets back women even further, kinda like what other m did.

Edited May 3, 2015 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[Florete]

as long as its done well, otherwise its pretty awful.

Metriod other m anyone?

what i'm saying is, you can't put a girl with a vay jay jay as a main lead and say "this alone makes this game good and progressive" cause if done wrong, it sets back women even further, kinda like what other m did.

One step forward, two steps back, but don't ignore that there was a step forward in there. I didn't say having a female lead automatically makes something good, just that the concept of giving women more importance in media is a progressive one.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

One step forward, two steps back, but don't ignore that there was a step forward in there. I didn't say having a female lead automatically makes something good, just that the concept of giving women more importance in media is a progressive one.

as long as we don't take enough steps back so that we fall off a cliff ofcourse

[Refa]

One step forward, two steps back, but don't ignore that there was a step forward in there. I didn't say having a female lead automatically makes something good, just that the concept of giving women more importance in media is a progressive one.

Where was the step forward taken (I kind of assumed that you were talking about Other M here but it just now occurred to me that that might not be right so uh...possibly my bad?), literally every single previous Metroid game had the exact same female lead.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Refa

[Philranger]

Where was the step forward taken, literally every single previous Metroid game had the exact same female lead.

I believe the step forward would have been making Samus female in the first place.

[Refa]

That's not something that can be attributed to Metroid Other M, so I'm not sure why exactly that's relevant.

[Loki Laufeyson]

One step forward, two steps back, but don't ignore that there was a step forward in there. I didn't say having a female lead automatically makes something good, just that the concept of giving women more importance in media is a progressive one.

Sweet Gerd, for once we agree on something. Yeah this. Also that by making more games with female leads, we can experiment on what is a good sense of representation. Kind of a trial and error on what will sell vs what wont and what the consumer is looking for. People want more female leads in games, but not everyone wants Bayonetta.

As for Other M, that is a good example of what not to do with a female lead. They havent made a Metroid since which is both scary and interesting. Scary because what if Metroid is doomed? (i kinda doubt it) Interesting because it could mean that Nintendo is reviewing what went wrong and is trying to find ways of fixing it.

[Philranger]

That's not something that can be attributed to Metroid Other M, so I'm not sure why exactly that's relevant.

Metroid as a franchise was a step forward making Samus a female lead and a pretty badass character at that.

Then Other M came out and was two steps back.

[Florete]

Where was the step forward taken, literally every single previous Metroid game had the exact same female lead.

Don't get caught up in specifics when my point wasn't about specifics. Even if something goes wrong, which it definitely can:

Giving more importance to women in media very much is progress.

This statement still holds true. It's not about Metroid. Besides, it's not like Other M was regressive, but that's a conversation for another day.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Sweet Gerd, for once we agree on something. Yeah this. Also that by making more games with female leads, we can experiment on what is a good sense of representation. Kind of a trial and error on what will sell vs what wont and what the consumer is looking for. People want more female leads in games, but not everyone wants Bayonetta.

As for Other M, that is a good example of what not to do with a female lead. They havent made a Metroid since which is both scary and interesting. Scary because what if Metroid is doomed? (i kinda doubt it) Interesting because it could mean that Nintendo is reviewing what went wrong and is trying to find ways of fixing it.

i dunno, bayonetta was a pretty positive example, also done by a team of women so thats a bonus ontop of an already fun game, i can understand not everyone would want one tho( if we're talking about looks she doesn't appeal to me too much, her personality is VERY attractive tho)

i heard there's a metriod game confirmed to be in development so its not dead, but it did take a long break, i'm hoping it'll be a fun game

[Thor Odinson]

The point isn't that Bayonetta is bad, but she isn't going to appeal to everyone, which is why there should be diversity in female leads, or any leads, really. Bayonetta is good and all, but she shouldn't be the only kind of female protag there is, and neither should any other personality type or whatever.

It's like how I prefer Hector, but some of my friends prefer Eliwood as far as personalities go; both are valid characters, they just appeal differently to different people and the same logic applies to female leads as well.

[Dark Sage]

Eh, to be fair, a lot of FEs are pretty good regarding the number of female characters in the cast. FE4 and FE13 had an equal gender ratio; FE6 and FE10 also had quite a large amount of females and the other FEs haven't been terrible in that regard. Female characters on average also have slightly more quality units in their gender group than the males do in various FE games.

Actually I noticed the popular SRPGs tend to have quite a bit of recruitable female characters. Tactics Ogre (both LUCT and KoL) had a 1:1 gender ratio in the female special characters. Same for FFT. In a lot of SRPGs, you can recruit generics and have as many males or females as you want. I think that's pretty nice.

[nordopolica]

Eh, to be fair, a lot of FEs are pretty good regarding the number of female characters in the cast. FE4 and FE13 had an equal gender ratio; FE6 and FE10 also had quite a large amount of females and the other FEs haven't been terrible in that regard. Female characters on average also have slightly more quality units in their gender group than the males do in various FE games.

Actually I noticed the popular SRPGs tend to have quite a bit of recruitable female characters. Tactics Ogre (both LUCT and KoL) had a 1:1 gender ratio in the female special characters. Same for FFT. In a lot of SRPGs, you can recruit generics and have as many males or females as you want. I think that's pretty nice.

FE6 (not including trial map characters)

35 Male, 19 Female

FE7

31 Male, 13 Female

FE8 (not including trial map and Orson)

21 Male, 12 Female

PoR (no trial maps)

31 Male, 14 Female

RD

47 Male, 25 Female

Awakening (counting both the Avatar and Morgan as both male and female and including Priam, Aversa, Gangrel, etc.)

26 Male, 25 Female

I'm guessing we see closer to 1:1 like Awakening than 2:1/2.5:1 in previous iterations.

I wouldn't call a strong 1:2 ratio ideal, but it's certainly been better than having a token female character in each game.

On another note, I think using the "it shouldn't matter what gender they are as long as the story is good" is a pretty common excuse for just neglecting to represent a pretty big demographic. It's like saying "no girls play these games so we shouldn't have to represent them" and it's also similar to the age-old excuse of "video games are escapism so they shouldn't resemble the real world in any way because people of different genders, sexualities and races than me make me feel uncomfortable."

[goodperson707]

i would point out that i personally find that quoting statsistics isnt always the best way to go, as they leave out context, like the portrayal of the characters, or the effort put into them, like how many playable males are generic and how many playable females are generic or how many lines or supports they get. Also though awakening had a near equal ratio it still had some subtle inequalities like, no female fighters/barbarians (seems like that is fixed though yay) and if i remember right female heroes (maybe war clerics too) use an axe differently than males i think slower or two handed i forget. The older games also had the general higher speed, lower strength thing.

[Dark Sage]

i would point out that i personally find that quoting statsistics isnt always the best way to go, as they leave out context, like the portrayal of the characters, or the effort put into them, like how many playable males are generic and how many playable females are generic or how many lines or supports they get. Also though awakening had a near equal ratio it still had some subtle inequalities like, no female fighters/barbarians (seems like that is fixed though yay) and if i remember right female heroes (maybe war clerics too) use an axe differently than males i think slower or two handed i forget. The older games also had the general higher speed, lower strength thing.

On the other hand, males didn't get Pegasus Knight or Troubadour whereas females did. The females are actually better off in that regard since their exclusive classes are far superior to the male ones.

[Thor Odinson]

Depends on situation tbh, even with my own preference for axes aside, I'd have liked F Berserker in 12L (especially since males in that game got double the classes females did, the standard peg promotion is gender neutral, and Falco was woefully limited anyway) for Minerva and Warrior for female MU in 13L+. It's a good thing that both sides seems to be open to becoming gender neutral, at any rate, if Tsubaki is indeed male.

[Dark Sage]

Depends on situation tbh, even with my own preference for axes aside, I'd have liked F Berserker in 12L (especially since males in that game got double the classes females did, the standard peg promotion is gender neutral, and Falco was woefully limited anyway) for Minerva and Warrior for female MU in 13L+. It's a good thing that both sides seems to be open to becoming gender neutral, at any rate, if Tsubaki is indeed male.

Those are situational uses though. 90-95% of the time, the female exclusive classes are just flat out better than the male ones. Like in your FE12 example, Minerva is literally the only female character who loses something from the lack of Berserker; nobody else really cares.

Don't get me wrong, I don't oppose gender-neutral classes at all or anything. I'm just pointing out that there's more to this than people think.

[Thor Odinson]

Those are situational uses though. 90-95% of the time, the female exclusive classes are just flat out better than the male ones. Like in your FE12 example, Minerva is literally the only female character who loses something from the lack of Berserker; nobody else really cares.

Don't get me wrong, I don't oppose gender-neutral classes at all or anything. I'm just pointing out that there's more to this than people think.

In this case wouldn't it go the other way? Wouldn't the guys like to benefit from Peg and Troub? Situational is still a use, though. Having access to Bow Knight, for example, would also have been cool, in the case of FE12 and can be applied generally. 10 move and bows is pretty hella.

It's interesting to note that, movement aside, troub is a support class, and peg is a combat class with strong support functions which makes them more valuable than the hard-combat fighter and berserker. This isn't to say that support vs offense is inherently better than one another ideologically (for lack of a better word, as opposed to gameplay, english is a difficult language to get across ideas)--both are very valuable in war, but rather it shows an adherence to gender roles.

At least from my viewpoint, it's not about women getting the short end of the stick in classes, because I do agree that peg, especially, is incredible and desirable to all who can get it, it's just limitations on gender for classes feels quite limiting for possibilities with characters. Fitting personality to class, etc. Goes for all genders here.

Minerva getting 27 speed with axes also doesn't hurt.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[Dark Sage]

Fair enough. Often when this topic comes up, it really does often sound like people think women get the short end of the stick and for the most part, that's just not true. I do agree that gender neutral classes can open up more opportunities for different characters (though I don't think there'd be many personalities where a fighter is a much better fit than, say, a mercenary), which is good. Variety is the spice of life.

More female generic enemies would be cool too.

[Refa]

Female mercenaries weren't a thing for the longest time either, though (thanks, Awakening).

[Thor Odinson]

Fair enough. Often when this topic comes up, it really does often sound like people think women get the short end of the stick and for the most part, that's just not true. I do agree that gender neutral classes can open up more opportunities for different characters (though I don't think there'd be many personalities where a fighter is a much better fit than, say, a mercenary), which is good. Variety is the spice of life.

More female generic enemies would be cool too.

Well, if a female character wants to be a lumberjack or swords in their country is fairly scarce and they aren't rich, historically axes are the less resource intensive of the two!

And yeah, I definitely agree. It wouldn't be difficult to do codewise either.

[Crysta]

I just want a male pegasus knight since I don't know why a male warrior wouldn't want a flying horse. I mean, they're much less liable to eat you than wyverns.

[Dark Sage]

Well, if a female character wants to be a lumberjack or swords in their country is fairly scarce and they aren't rich, historically axes are the less resource intensive of the two!

And yeah, I definitely agree. It wouldn't be difficult to do codewise either.

It's probably less to do with code than it has to do with art assets. Less genders saves more time I guess.

Still, games like FFT include lots of male and female generic enemies so...