Unusual character gender ratio

[Rapier]

If you're gonna say shit, own up to them.

I said that I did doubt women can accomplish these feats, and to be honest I don't watch olympic games, which made me think it wasn't doable. I did not confirm that women can not accomplish these feats. There's a difference from 'I think x is true/I doubt x is true' to 'X is absolutely true/X is most certainly false'. My statement did admit it could be wrong.

In short, you're taking it too personally and seriously. So what if what I said was wrong? I don't mind making mistakes, and for all I know I've fixed it and made a more reasonable and concise argument that you agreed with. I am sustaining my position, and I am ready to sustain the other cases I have cited on my first page 5 post about the irrelevancy of equal sex character ratio, should anyone respond to it. I'm 'owning up to them', as you say.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Rapier

[Thor Odinson]

I said that I did doubt women can accomplish these feats, and to be honest I don't watch olympic games, which made me think it wasn't doable. I did not confirm that women can not accomplish these feats. There's a difference from 'I think x is true/I doubt x is true' to 'X is absolutely true/X is most certainly false'. My statement did admit it could be wrong.

In short, you're taking it too personally and seriously. So what if what I said was wrong? I don't mind making mistakes, and for all I know I've fixed it and made a more reasonable and concise argument that you agreed with. I am sustaining my position.

As a woman fuck yeah i'm gonna take offense to you saying we're not strong enough to take a big fucking axe and cleave people's heads in

Watch your mouth and do some actual fucking research next time.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[Ciarre]

Lumi has a reason to take it personally though because those are things that she's very passionate about, and you just came in and said "women can't do this". You did amend your statement, yes, but your original statement was far more misleading.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Lumi has a reason to take it personally though because those are things that she's very passionate about, and you just came in and said "women can't do this". You did amend your statement, yes, but your original statement was far more misleading.

i thought it was a dude cause the gender thing said male

[Thor Odinson]

My gender used to say female years ago then some creepy fuck hit on me and I'm done with dealing with that

but that's not the point of the thread

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

i'm not sure this whole debate's what the thread is about either but why not?

[Rapier]

Lumi has a reason to take it personally though because those are things that she's very passionate about, and you just came in and said "women can't do this". You did amend your statement, yes, but your original statement was far more misleading.

Ok, even though I was wrong, I fail to realize how saying that women can't lift something exceptionally heavy (when I'd wager most men can't do so as well) is that offensive and personal. It's like, wow you made a mistake about a certain subject, you're such a terrible person for being wrong! Nowhere in my post was there any malicious intent or even sexist implications (unless you do take as bigotry a miscalculation on women's lifting limits).

By the way, thanks for correcting me.

Now that we're done, can we return to the big question? It was 'how is it relevant that there is an equal sex ratio in a videogame?'. Again, I admit that I may be wrong, yet I'm ready to defend that it is not relevant at all.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Rapier

[goodperson707]

Okay i actually don't give unequal representation much thought on buying a game and i admit and own up to that, but casual sexism does exist in Fire emblem and in fact i would say in nearly all media. And quoting statistics on strength doesn't really matter as fantasy is kinda exempt, also all stories are chosen to have characters, and most main characters in a story can be assumed to be extraordinary people as why else would there be a story about them.

[Thor Odinson]

Ok, even though I was wrong, I fail to realize how saying that women can't lift something exceptionally heavy (when I'd wager most men can't do so as well) is that offensive and personal. It's like, wow you made a mistake about a certain subject, you're such a terrible person for being wrong! Nowhere in my post was there any malicious intent or even sexist implications (unless you do take as bigotry a miscalculation on women's lifting limits).

Tell that to all the women who get told every day we can't fucking do things because we're women

"blah blah blah you're a woman you can't dot his you can't do that"

There's reasons I told you off once before for doing shit like this

Instead of making statements like that at all why don't you just NOT

It'll save us all some headaches

Edited May 4, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[Florete]

I said that I did doubt women can accomplish these feats, and to be honest I don't watch olympic games, which made me think it wasn't doable. I did not confirm that women can not accomplish these feats. There's a difference from 'I think x is true/I doubt x is true' to 'X is absolutely true/X is most certainly false'. My statement did admit it could be wrong.

In short, you're taking it too personally and seriously. So what if what I said was wrong? I don't mind making mistakes, and for all I know I've fixed it and made a more reasonable and concise argument that you agreed with. I am sustaining my position, and I am ready to sustain the other cases I have cited on my first page 5 post about the irrelevancy of equal sex character ratio, should anyone respond to it. I'm 'owning up to them', as you say.

Your view of women has some problems, of course what you've said is going to be taken personally by actual women. First you said you didn't think women could lift an axe "because they're women," but you also revealed that you have a fundamental disconnect with the realities of real women by admitting here that you didn't think it possible because you'd never seen it. You are literally saying, "I didn't think a woman could ever be this strong because I've never seen one [and because they're women]." Do you realize how absurd that thought is? This isn't fucking Santa Claus we're talking about here, this is the capabilities of actual people. Do you also think women can't be good stand-up comedians because most of them are men?

There are differences between men and women physiologically, yes, but it's not large and certainly not large enough that a fantasy series like Fire Emblem needs to adhere to it in order to withhold suspension of disbelief.

[Terrador]

I heard there was some chicanery in here, so the long and the short of women (let's extend this to other demographics too, as some of the points still apply even when there's no issue of differing capabilities to contend with). Let's put out some bullet points, shall we?

-Verisimilitude doesn't mean shit. This is not a physics simulator.

-If you care about men being stronger than women in fiction, what does that say about your own views on genders? On how important your perceived gender superiority is? I'll give you a hint: nothing good. Also, if women being strong tampers with your suspension of disbelief, you clearly don't know enough women. Have you even been in a gym?

-Representation isn't about an "objectively" stronger plot--and as far as literary fundamentals go, it doesn't unless the discrimination exists in-universe and acts as an effective plot point there. It's about people having characters they identify with. I'm sure pretty much any remotely able white male literally has no clue what this feels like--to see such a dearth of people who aren't like them in these roles. To see media implicitly say, "PoC aren't heroic. Women aren't strong. Disabled people aren't sexy" is something that Should Not Exist, only enforces stereotypes, and needs to go kindly out the door.

Somebody tell me with a straight face that all our strong folk should be men now. Go ahead. I can wait.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Terrador

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

good lord this thread has gone full tumblr really fast

[IceBuster573]

So...about that gender ratio. You think Hoshido Queen is going to be a unit? Probably not since she's suppose to be the parallel to Garon and Garon doesn't seem like he wants to revolutionize the kingdom with you.

[Terrador]

(though now that I think about it--what purpose is served by not having a distribution of gender closely resembling even?)

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

(though now that I think about it--what purpose is served by not having a distribution of gender closely resembling even?)

well if your playing a historical game or a historical simulator, there's that.

no need to gender flip historical figures for sick fetishes,(hello fate night stay) tho adding in minor females in history into playable characters is fine and evens up the ratio, while still being historically accurate. (the games i'm talking about here are anything related to the three kingdoms and sengoku era to be accurate)

So...about that gender ratio. You think Hoshido Queen is going to be a unit? Probably not since she's suppose to be the parallel to Garon and Garon doesn't seem like he wants to revolutionize the kingdom with you.

i'm hoping she'll just be an NPC, and if she dies she'll stay dead so she won't be Emm 2.0

Edited May 4, 2015 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[Roflolxp54]

This sounds like somebody spends too much time with the world of fiction than with reality.

[IceBuster573]

well if your playing a historical game or a historical simulator, there's that.

no need to gender flip historical figures for sick fetishes,(hello fate night stay) tho adding in minor females in history into playable characters is fine and evens up the ratio, while still being historically accurate. (the games i'm talking about here are anything related to the three kingdoms and sengoku era to be accurate)

i'm hoping she'll just be an NPC, and if she dies she'll stay dead so she won't be Emm 2.0

Well you know...I'm sure the developers only did that because they wanted Awakening to end on a high note. I don't think these two games will be pulling any punches this time. Just ask the Hoshido soldier that still needs arrows removed from his body.

Edited May 4, 2015 by IceBuster573

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Well you know...I'm sure the developers only did that because they wanted Awakening to end on a high note. I don't think these two games will be pulling any punches this time. Just ask the Hoshido soldier that still needs arrows removed from his body.

i'm hoping here too, but i can't say anything for positive until its out, i am looking forward to playing the game tho, it looks fun and like it wants to be its own thing and not ride the coattails from the previous entry, something that many games, movies, and books do sometimes

[Thor Odinson]

I really hope hoshido queen is not Emm 2.0 and I hope she either has some backbone or the emmeryn-style naive pacifism actually has some consequences

It'd be cool to have someone who looks gentle but is made of fucking steel

I also like her design; if she's playable that'd be really cool, as long as it's not another assrevive.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[Rapier]

There are differences between men and women physiologically, yes, but it's not large and certainly not large enough that a fantasy series like Fire Emblem needs to adhere to it in order to withhold suspension of disbelief.

This is why I said it didn't matter, except if we were going to take it realistically. Also, to say women have limitations for being women can be valid depending on the case. She gave out an example that women can't lift more than 250N, that is due to women's physical limitations. Does it mean I believe women can't lift shit? No. I thought lifting a huge axe was beyond women's lifting capability, that was all. If she's offended that I thought women couldn't lift an absurd axe like Armads, what can I do.

-If you care about men being stronger than women in fiction

I don't. Read my post. "appealing to reality in a fantasy game with far too many escapes from reality isn't a good argument. Creative breaks are accepted here (though, if we were going to be realistic(...)" It was never implied to be the case.

It's about people having characters they identify with. I'm sure pretty much any remotely able white male literally has no clue what this feels like

First, there are many other characteristics people can identify with, that is not exclusive to sexual attraction, sex, class, race etc. So having the main character as the same sex as the spectator isn't that relevant, because it's just another characteristic. Unless there is an hierarchy between these characteristics, I don't see how a man automatically relates to another man in media just because they're both men. It is just one (un)relatable characteristic.

Since I fall in your classification of able white male, then I can't understand how it feels like (why not? Do different people think that differently, in such a way I can't understand them?). But why is that I don't mind whether the main characters are black, or women, or gay? If I were all that supremacist about my features, wouldn't I dislike these shows? How is it possible that I end up liking black/women/gay lead characters if they are "not relatable to my characteristics"? Actually, how is it possible for me to relate with these characters?

In the end, these superficial details are just that. People take personality, background, actions etc. more importantly than features.

(though now that I think about it--what purpose is served by not having a distribution of gender closely resembling even?)

This isn't an answer.

I really hope hoshido queen is not Emm 2.0 and I hope she either has some backbone or the emmeryn-style naive pacifism actually has some consequences

IIRC it was said Hoshido won't be such pacific cool guys. I'm expecting some sort of plot twist coming from them.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Rapier

[IceBuster573]

Actually you know what would be perfect? On the Nohr path, you thought you killed Garon, but he ends up living. Would officially be the best ending of any Fire Emblem game.

Oh darn...attempt at derailing failed...

Edited May 4, 2015 by IceBuster573

[Terrador]

Way to make a post about you, Rapier, and furthermore, to miss the point.

And it's not about "my race is masterrace all must conform". It's about having people in media who are like you. If you've taken a listen to people in marginalized demographics talking about this, maybe you'd have a grasp of it.

And if you're defending the idea that equal representation is a bad thing, and that there shouldn't be equal representation shouldn't be the ideal, all else equal: clearly, you're on the wrong side of the argument.

[Rapier]

Actually you know what would be perfect? On the Nohr path, you thought you killed Garon, but he ends up living. Would officially be the best ending of any Fire Emblem game.

Oh darn...attempt at derailing failed...

Or the Hoshido family are the descendants of some Big Bad dragon and the war makes their violent self speak higher and reveal their evil side.

Way to make a post about you, Rapier, and furthermore, to miss the point.

And it's not about "my race is masterrace all must conform". It's about having people in media who are like you. If you've taken a listen to people in marginalized demographics talking about this, maybe you'd have a grasp of it.

And if you're defending the idea that equal representation is a bad thing, and that there shouldn't be equal representation shouldn't be the ideal, all else equal: clearly, you're on the wrong side of the argument.

Way to read someone wrong. Let me correct your assumptions.

My point was that minor characteristics such as sex, gender and whatever, aren't that relevant, and that they're not enough to represent people (unless you are reducionist and believe being black is the only factor that represents black people, for example).

I don't defend equal representation is a bad thing, I defend it is irrelevant. People relate more to characters with similar backgrounds, personalities, problems and issues, than with the mere fact that they're black too. This is also why white people can relate with black characters and vice-versa, by the way.

Ok, I'll give in. It seems I can't formulate a proper argument. So I am just going to accept that having more women in media is really all that relevant and that having black characters in media makes a black baby smile for seeing someone who represents them, and all that reducionist views. Whatever. There must be something really wrong with me for seeing people as people, and not just as black, white, women, gay, american, non-american, asian etc.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Rapier

[goodperson707]

Tell that to all the women who get told every day we can't fucking do things because we're women

"blah blah blah you're a woman you can't dot his you can't do that"

There's reasons I told you off once before for doing shit like this

Instead of making statements like that at all why don't you just NOT

It'll save us all some headaches

I actually had a eerily similar coversation, where i was of the point of view that the numbers of representation didn't matter that much and that it wont affect my choice of media, but i was too insensitive so i ended up choosing apologizing via pm (and had a nice conversation with that person to boot) i still do believe the exact numbers dont matter as much as the content, and that numbers won't stop me from enjoying a peice of media if it isnt offensive, but i do also believe that casual/notso casual sexism exists nearly everywhere, and that a lot more people are affected by it than i could know, though i do hope it will cease, hopefully in my lifetime, but the inner cynic in me knows that is not likely to happen though i wish otherwise.

[Loki Laufeyson]

So...about that gender ratio. You think Hoshido Queen is going to be a unit? Probably not since she's suppose to be the parallel to Garon and Garon doesn't seem like he wants to revolutionize the kingdom with you.

I think shes an NPC in the main story but she might be an unlockable? I just hope she doesnt go full martyr like Emm. *gag* If she is a unit, i hope shes like a cool ass Bishop or something awesome. (or our character that joins near the end of the game)

good lord this thread has gone full tumblr really fast

Things were fine before the mansplaining began in full swing.