Chiki Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 (edited) I don't see the big deal. If they have nothing else to do apart from sit on their fat asses eating donuts or abuse their power, sure, let them help with parenting. It's funny how dondon uses a fallacious argument (he appeals to ridiculousness in his first post), then calls blah for using a fallacious argument. There is no statement whatsoever which leads us to the conclusion that those mentioned police activities are a waste of time. Also, complaining that the police isn't doing better things isn't the same as 'the police should be handing speeding tickets and tagging cars', which is what blah's first post addresses, so dondon's reply doesn't even follow. I don't think you even understand basic reasoning tbh. blah said that doing one's job is a good way to spend time, so what dondon said applies. what you described really is a better use of their time because it is their JOB. Edited May 6, 2015 by Chiki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 that's an incredibly fallacious argument; if my job were to jerk my penis all day long, is that a good use of my time? activities aren't a good use of time simply because they are labeled "job." Yes, but what those police did really wasn't a good use of their time; the generalization does not stand, but it does in this specific case. Or you could mess him up which leads to that, it works both ways. I don't know where you're from, but I'm going to note that he was responding more to your condescending tone towards the US rather than the content of your argument. Yes, they should probably be doing other things, but you're making it sound like the oh so brave american police force does shit like this. Don't know what dondon was getting at with his most recent post. Thats fair enough, but the American police force is a bit of a laughing stock here in Prague; even the Americans here (including me) find them ineffective compared to the Czech police. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 It's funny how dondon uses a fallacious argument (he appeals to ridiculousness in his first post), then calls blah for using a fallacious argument. There is no statement whatsoever which leads us to the conclusion that those mentioned police activities are a waste of time. Also, complaining that the police isn't doing better things isn't the same as 'the police should be handing speeding tickets and tagging cars', which is what blah's first post addresses, so dondon's reply doesn't even follow. it's funny how rapier's posts use sizable words and argumentative diction to mask his fatal shortcoming that is the inability to comprehend or produce sense. Yes, but what those police did really wasn't a good use of their time; the generalization does not stand, but it does in this specific case. i was implying that what the police normally spend a large amount of time doing (ambushing drivers to hand out speeding tickets and tagging parking violations) is not a good use of their time. i likened this to masturbation (in fact, if you're sitting in a patrol car on the side of a highway waiting for the radar to blip, that might be what you do to pass the time). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 it's funny how rapier's posts use sizable words and argumentative diction to mask his fatal shortcoming that is the inability to comprehend or produce sense. i was implying that what the police normally spend a large amount of time doing (ambushing drivers to hand out speeding tickets and tagging parking violations) is not a good use of their time. i likened this to masturbation (in fact, if you're sitting in a patrol car on the side of a highway waiting for the radar to blip, that might be what you do to pass the time). Its funny how Dondon has not demonstrated how in any way how Rapier has the inability to produce sense. In addition, how is ambushing drivers or whatever a better use of their time than going to a school and scaring the shit out of some kid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Because sometimes a driver is only going like 4-5 mph over the speed limit in an empty road and he slaps them with a $200 ticket despite it being their first speeding ticket ever. Neither are really productive uses of their time, and neither is in particular danger of hurting society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Because sometimes a driver is only going like 4-5 mph over the speed limit in an empty road and he slaps them with a $200 ticket despite it being their first speeding ticket ever. Neither are really productive uses of their time, and neither is in particular danger of hurting society. Well yeah, but the trauma and humiliation of a mock arrest in front of your peers is kind of worse than paying a fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 The police sometimes take it as part of their schedule to visit schools and teach the kids things regarding simple rules, laws, etc., at least in the U.K. The officers in question probably saw they had time in their schedule and no calls to reply to, so used the opportunity to visit the school, "fake arrest" this child, and teach him, along with his whole classroom, a lesson on respect and whatnot. No harm done, and now at least a few more kids in the world will think twice before acting like dicks. For about an hour or whatever of their schedule, probably worth it. A bit extreme maybe, but also probably very effective. The quality of parenting is a non-factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 The police sometimes take it as part of their schedule to visit schools and teach the kids things regarding simple rules, laws, etc., at least in the U.K. The officers in question probably saw they had time in their schedule and no calls to reply to, so used the opportunity to visit the school, "fake arrest" this child, and teach him, along with his whole classroom, a lesson on respect and whatnot. No harm done, and now at least a few more kids in the world will think twice before acting like dicks. For about an hour or whatever of their schedule, probably worth it. A bit extreme maybe, but also probably very effective. The quality of parenting is a non-factor. Yes, but in real life, disrespect will not get you fucking arrested. It is the responsibility of the school to teach students responsibility, not the responsibility of the police force. I am also curious as to why the quality of parenting is a non factor, as the mother pretty much had cops do her job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 (edited) it's not like I was there to know exactly what went down. Teaching kids at a young age that "being disrespectful is bad" is not a bad thing. You're right that teachers and parents can and should teach such things, but to hear that stuff from the boys in blue is something you won't forget compared to this information getting lost amongst all the other stuff teachers and parents should be teaching. Disrespect at a young age may well elevate to situations that are arrest-worthy later on in life, so where's the problem in attempting to drill it into them early that it's bad through the most effective means possible? The way I see it, it's not. Edited May 6, 2015 by Raven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Wright Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 (edited) almost no experience with a police officer is going to change the way you make a decision. the authoritative structure that is set up makes it very difficult for a citizen to conform in such a way. i can all but guarantee this kid won't change in the long term because of this fake arrest. Edited May 6, 2015 by Phoenix Wright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapier Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 I don't think you even understand basic reasoning tbh. blah said that doing one's job is a good way to spend time, so what dondon said applies. I'll have your attention to the parts you missed: It's funny how dondon uses a fallacious argument (he appeals to ridiculousness in his first post), then calls blah for using a fallacious argument. Whereas I point he appealed to ridiculouness to make his point. This is a rethorical recourse, not a logical one. As far as I know, appeal to ridiculous is a fallacy. You have no way to say I am wrong. If dondon is going to call others for using fallacies, he better not slip on them as well. Because sometimes a driver is only going like 4-5 mph over the speed limit in an empty road and he slaps them with a $200 ticket despite it being their first speeding ticket ever. Neither are really productive uses of their time, and neither is in particular danger of hurting society. Note that I agree with dondon's content, although he failed on his form, which is what I directed my post to. it's funny how rapier's posts use sizable words and argumentative diction to mask his fatal shortcoming that is the inability to comprehend or produce sense. Know what else doesn't make sense? Your reply to blah. i know, right? these brave men in uniform should be ambushing drivers to hand out speeding tickets and tagging cars with parking violations. that's a much better use of their time. It has so little to do with what he said, it's not a reply at all. Mostly a side commentary, at best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 dondon didn't use appeal to ridiculousness. He used reductio ad absurdum, which may sound similar but it's completely different. It's proving that an argument is false by showing that it leads to an absurdity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crysta Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Like eclipse, I would appreciate more context. If he was bullying someone or doing something his mother simply could not be there to see and discipline him on, then I don't think this is actually that terrible of an idea... especially if it was something physical, which can be considered assault in the adult world. Schools can kind of suck at cracking down on that sort of thing. If he's just being a mouthy little bastard, ground him or take away his toys or something. No need to call 911 lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 almost no experience with a police officer is going to change the way you make a decision. the authoritative structure that is set up makes it very difficult for a citizen to conform in such a way. i can all but guarantee this kid won't change in the long term because of this fake arrest. Yep, basically this. This incident will, if anything, lead to more resentment of police and authority figures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Well then, must be an American thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 (edited) Whereas I point he appealed to ridiculouness to make his point. This is a rethorical recourse, not a logical one. As far as I know, appeal to ridiculous is a fallacy. You have no way to say I am wrong. If dondon is going to call others for using fallacies, he better not slip on them as well. in addition to what chiki said an appeal to ridicule frequently doesn't even attempt to make a point, which is not what i was doing. it just so happens that i go for the incidental humor because otherwise i would be boring. please understand your fallacies before trying to call someone out on one. i was demonstrating that one shouldn't define a worthy use of time only by the label "job." a job is not, by definition, a worthy use of one's time, and it is extremely common for something that's not a job to be a good use of one's time (education is the first thing that comes to mind). if you don't agree with this, then explain why, otherwise kindly shut up with your nonsense. In addition, how is ambushing drivers or whatever a better use of their time than going to a school and scaring the shit out of some kid? it's not. that's the point. i apologize if the irony was lost on you. police officers on the whole spend way more of their time enforcing traffic and parking laws than "stopping crime," partially because fines are how many police departments generate revenue. and usually what happens when you get such a fine is that you waste however much of your valuable time (that could be spent doing a job) contesting the fine in traffic court or whatever and you still end up losing money that could have been invested into doing something more productive. Edited May 7, 2015 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 it's not. that's the point. i apologize if the irony was lost on you. police officers on the whole spend way more of their time enforcing traffic and parking laws than "stopping crime," partially because fines are how many police departments generate revenue. and usually what happens when you get such a fine is that you waste however much of your valuable time (that could be spent doing a job) contesting the fine in traffic court or whatever and you still end up losing money that could have been invested into doing something more productive. But thats not the point. The point is that going to this school and staging an arrest is just as much of a waste of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 (edited) It's a damn shame, they could have ticketed a dozen or so illegally-parked cars in the time they spent at the school, right? I'm also pretty sure they thought this visit was so important they had to turn off their radios so they wouldn't be bothered by emergency calls. You seem to be under the impression that the police do nothing but dish out fines, chase and arrest people, and that anything else they do with their time is wasted (correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the impression you're giving me). Most police departments actually try to integrate and work with their communities and have their officers try to become someone that people can look up to and respect. If the kid was being such a little cunt, a majority of his fellow pupils would have thought it was awesome that a copper showed up at school to show him, and everyone else, that it's not okay to be a little cunt. Edited May 7, 2015 by Raven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 But thats not the point. The point is that going to this school and staging an arrest is just as much of a waste of time. No it's not. Most of the time, the police don't really do much of importance anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 (edited) This kind of intervention isn't a one-way street to "good kid." You can also make them think something like, "well, maybe I AM a criminal, if the police/people around me are going to pigeonhole me like this!" Socialization is a funny thing. (Until it isn't.) Edited May 7, 2015 by Rehab Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 No it's not. Most of the time, the police don't really do much of importance anyway. Why is it more important? Explain this to me. It's a damn shame, they could have ticketed a dozen or so illegally-parked cars in the time they spent at the school, right? I'm also pretty sure they thought this visit was so important they had to turn off their radios so they wouldn't be bothered by emergency calls. You seem to be under the impression that the police do nothing but dish out fines, chase and arrest people, and that anything else they do with their time is wasted (correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the impression you're giving me). Most police departments actually try to integrate and work with their communities and have their officers try to become someone that people can look up to and respect. If the kid was being such a little cunt, a majority of his fellow pupils would have thought it was awesome that a copper showed up at school to show him, and everyone else, that it's not okay to be a little cunt. There's this asshole at my old school. I would love to see him dragged out on to the lawn and shot. Does that mean he should be dragged,out onto the lawn and shot? Of course not. What the students want shouldn't affect anything. That's why we're not allowed to vote, for one thing. Staging an arrest on a kid who for all we know was just cursing the teacher is wholly inappropriate. That shit doesn't get you arrested in real life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Welp, I'm done here, lads. Have a good one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapier Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 an appeal to ridicule frequently doesn't even attempt to make a point, which is not what i was doing. it just so happens that i go for the incidental humor because otherwise i would be boring. please understand your fallacies before trying to call someone out on one. i was demonstrating that one shouldn't define a worthy use of time only by the label "job." a job is not, by definition, a worthy use of one's time, and it is extremely common for something that's not a job to be a good use of one's time (education is the first thing that comes to mind). if you don't agree with this, then explain why, otherwise kindly shut up with your nonsense. First, we're not talking about the same posts. This is the one I am referring to: i know, right? these brave men in uniform should be ambushing drivers to hand out speeding tickets and tagging cars with parking violations. that's a much better use of their time. The other post is not an appeal to ridicule, that's not even what I said! But this one is! Are we clear? Ok. Also, the ridiculouness of handing out speeding tickets is not self-evident. This argument needs premisses to sustain the conclusion that it is ridiculous. There are none. Moreover, is it ridiculous to hand out speeding tickets to an imprudent driver putting other civilians in danger, in order to encourage social order? I don't see how it is. So there is a case where it is not ridiculous, which puts your content into question. You and Chiki have been hitting at a nonsensical strawman. Try this instead. dondon didn't use appeal to ridiculousness. He used reductio ad absurdum, which may sound similar but it's completely different. It's proving that an argument is false by showing that it leads to an absurdity. Yes, he did. Can you still claim he didn't, after reading the top part of my post? Can you still claim I am wrong? I'm waiting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 (edited) Are you really hung up over that comment? It was a joke. Edited May 8, 2015 by Chiki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapier Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Are you really hung up over that comment? It was a joke. Oh man, you're still thinking I refer to the job comment... Okay, I'll leave it at that. Poor Communication Kills thrice in a short span of time? My skill stat must be 5%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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