Promoting the Dawn Brigade in Part 1

[Radiant head]

Fact of the matter is, Leo has a lot against him too. IE, lackluster bases and bad growths. Without investment he's a good chipper, however chipping does not mark a unit as better, especially if the other has kickass growths and makes better use of his investment. (I bet that was a comma splice)

Yes, but the vice versa isn't true either. When you have characters like Nolan and Jill, and prepromotes like Zihark, Sothe, and in a way Volug, neither character is really worth the investment, so I can understand why someone would prefer the character who provides utility with almost no investment.

Jill>Nolan>Zihark>Aran=Edward(former has better defensive capabilities, latter has better offensive capabilities. Tbh Aran is probably slightly better)>Ilyana(good availability)>Leo>Meg>Fiona.

I prefer Aran too. Both are horrible in Hard, and good in Normal, and when it comes to the DB chapters, defensive capability is way more important.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Radiant head

[momogeek2141]

So if I understand you correctly, you think Edward>Leo, but someone who uses neither is more likely to deploy Leo for chip duties. That makes more sense.

As for Aran vs Edward, it all goes back to why Hector is better than Lyn. Except it's far closer of a matchup. Both are 2RKO'ed, one gets doubled the other has bad defense. Later, Aran can tank stuff better and Edward can kill stuff better. However early on, Eddie isn't doubling much, so Aran does more damage (and has a superior weapon type too.) They are almost equal though, the difference is minuscule.

[Augestein]

So if I understand you correctly, you think Edward>Leo, but someone who uses neither is more likely to deploy Leo for chip duties. That makes more sense.

As for Aran vs Edward, it all goes back to why Hector is better than Lyn. Except it's far closer of a matchup. Both are 2RKO'ed, one gets doubled the other has bad defense. Later, Aran can tank stuff better and Edward can kill stuff better. However early on, Eddie isn't doubling much, so Aran does more damage (and has a superior weapon type too.) They are almost equal though, the difference is minuscule.

All of the Dawn Brigade chapters allow you to deploy everyone, so there's no reason to not use both. Wind Edges have the same might as Iron Bows. Until Leonardo gets something better, the only thing that Leonardo is over Edward is cost efficient (which isn't much of an advantage because money isn't that tight). Leonardo can get a forged bow for an advantage, but then that kinda nullfies the cost efficiency for extra damage, of which if Edward doubles Ed does more. And there are four Wind Edges in part 1 that you can get through bargains. So it's not like this is something that's super niche for Edward to do. It's not until Part 4 that they even need to compete. There, Leo is more likely to be on a team than Edward simply because Edward has to actually be used as a unit to be worth deploying, Leonardo on the other hand, can resume doing what he always did. Doing mediocre damage and not getting hit in the face because he attacks from range and giving someone +2 atk and def.

It really isn't even close though. Aran also has realistic hit problems because of biorhythm that affects him in a really bad way. -10 hit is nothing to scoff at when you first get him (and more than likely, it'll be down or close to worst when you start actually using him after Chapter 3), and is a pain. And Aran doesn't exist in a world where when he gets doubled by things, he takes no damage or very little. When Aran gets doubled, he either dies or almost dies. Edward doesn't get doubled by things, like say Chapter 4's cats, meaning that Edward is actually more durable in the next chapter than Aran. Aran is absolutely wretched in Chapter 4. Meanwhile, Edward's light affinity essentially means that hit problems are never an issue, give him some defense to mitigate his defense problems, and if you gave him the dracoshield he has in the prologue, he'd be at 9 defense without getting a single point in defense. That + Struggling to double and doing so on occasion is much better than what Aran has to offer at base, and because Aran doesn't get faster, his offense never catches up, he kills less, which in turn makes him get less defense and never really be that great. Oh, and to add insult to injury, if you DO invest in Aran, he has 33 speed, which is one point shy of doubling everything you need in the endgame. Sure, you could use a Brave Lance I guess, but options are nice and the Wishblade is pretty cool. I honestly never saw what was so amazing about Aran. He reminds me of Laura. He looks great, but the game seems to not give him a chance to really shine.

[momogeek2141]

All of the Dawn Brigade chapters allow you to deploy everyone, so there's no reason to not use both. Wind Edges have the same might as Iron Bows. Until Leonardo gets something better, the only thing that Leonardo is over Edward is cost efficient (which isn't much of an advantage because money isn't that tight). Leonardo can get a forged bow for an advantage, but then that kinda nullfies the cost efficiency for extra damage, of which if Edward doubles Ed does more. And there are four Wind Edges in part 1 that you can get through bargains. So it's not like this is something that's super niche for Edward to do. It's not until Part 4 that they even need to compete. There, Leo is more likely to be on a team than Edward simply because Edward has to actually be used as a unit to be worth deploying, Leonardo on the other hand, can resume doing what he always did. Doing mediocre damage and not getting hit in the face because he attacks from range and giving someone +2 atk and def.

It really isn't even close though. Aran also has realistic hit problems because of biorhythm that affects him in a really bad way. -10 hit is nothing to scoff at when you first get him (and more than likely, it'll be down or close to worst when you start actually using him after Chapter 3), and is a pain. And Aran doesn't exist in a world where when he gets doubled by things, he takes no damage or very little. When Aran gets doubled, he either dies or almost dies. Edward doesn't get doubled by things, like say Chapter 4's cats, meaning that Edward is actually more durable in the next chapter than Aran. Aran is absolutely wretched in Chapter 4. Meanwhile, Edward's light affinity essentially means that hit problems are never an issue, give him some defense to mitigate his defense problems, and if you gave him the dracoshield he has in the prologue, he'd be at 9 defense without getting a single point in defense. That + Struggling to double and doing so on occasion is much better than what Aran has to offer at base, and because Aran doesn't get faster, his offense never catches up, he kills less, which in turn makes him get less defense and never really be that great. Oh, and to add insult to injury, if you DO invest in Aran, he has 33 speed, which is one point shy of doubling everything you need in the endgame. Sure, you could use a Brave Lance I guess, but options are nice and the Wishblade is pretty cool. I honestly never saw what was so amazing about Aran. He reminds me of Laura. He looks great, but the game seems to not give him a chance to really shine.

Leo is utter shit in part four. Like, just use Rolf or Shinon or a magic user, why deploy him? Also, there's deployment competition in Part one, and you'd realistically not deploy your untrained specimen in part 3.

I forgot about Aran's one shy of 34 speed. Sucks for him, I guess. Cats don't do a ton of damage to him though. Like I said, both are 2RKO'ed, and both need BEXP to solve their issues. They're really equal.

EDIT: My own point about Leo in part 4 is invalidated because we're comparing about two units. *facepalm* Leo I guess has more utility in part 4 than an untrained Eddie, but he still is a bad unit.

Edited June 10, 2015 by momogeek2141

[omglmaowtf]

The problem with DB is that you're forced to use them even in part 3. And in 3-6 you don't have Tormod, Tauroneo, Muarim, & Wolf Queen that you depended on in part 1.

Is just Miccy the staff healer, Zihark, Sothe, Jill, Volug, & Laura Other-staff-healer enough for the part 3 DB chapters? Guess ya should've promoted Aran, Leo, Eddie to tier 2 classes instead of leaving them at level 9!

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Good front units in 3-6 are Jill, Nolan, Zihark (if he has earth support), Volug and Sothe. They all can survive one hit by the tiger (Idk what mode you're playing tbh). If you're not playing HM, Aran would be a decent choice as well.

Leonardo is your main 2 range weapon user. Edward is also better with 2 range weapons, because he's very fragile and any crits can kill himself. A good strategy of using Edward is to bring him unequipped into wrath zone and then let him attack till the end of chapter with wind edges and storm swords in wrath zone. Laura will be your main healer, same goes for Micky unless there's nothing to heal.

I'd recommend to promote Jill and Nolan all the way. Leo doesn't need a promotion, because he'll be out of danger anyway since he's a 2 range weapon user. If he has at least 15 speed, he still can do enough with Lugnasadh as first tier. Edward's speed could benefit from a promotion, so he'd be good a contender as well.

BTW you'll get support in this chapter by someone very soon.

Edited June 10, 2015 by Mister CatTeaDawn

[omglmaowtf]

Good front units in 3-6 are Jill, Nolan, Zihark (if he has earth support), Volug and Sothe. They all can survive one hit by the tiger (Idk what mode you're playing tbh).

Good news then if you supported Zihark with Nolan or Volug. However in 3-7 you literally can't recruit Jill & Zihark to Team GM, otherwise subsequent DB chapters become almost impossible without SM eddie (like **** the Caladbolg will make any difference) & promoted Aran

[MacLovin]

Aran isn't that bad. He just falls under average joe.

Kinda like HM!Edward.

[Shadow Mir]

Edward can hit and double stuff unlike Aran.

True, but at the end of the day, Edward's just a fragile melee unit, which is not exactly a recipe for standing out when most of your group is already frail as it is.

All of the Dawn Brigade chapters allow you to deploy everyone, so there's no reason to not use both. Wind Edges have the same might as Iron Bows. Until Leonardo gets something better, the only thing that Leonardo is over Edward is cost efficient (which isn't much of an advantage because money isn't that tight). Leonardo can get a forged bow for an advantage, but then that kinda nullfies the cost efficiency for extra damage, of which if Edward doubles Ed does more. And there are four Wind Edges in part 1 that you can get through bargains. So it's not like this is something that's super niche for Edward to do. It's not until Part 4 that they even need to compete. There, Leo is more likely to be on a team than Edward simply because Edward has to actually be used as a unit to be worth deploying, Leonardo on the other hand, can resume doing what he always did. Doing mediocre damage and not getting hit in the face because he attacks from range and giving someone +2 atk and def.

It really isn't even close though. Aran also has realistic hit problems because of biorhythm that affects him in a really bad way. -10 hit is nothing to scoff at when you first get him (and more than likely, it'll be down or close to worst when you start actually using him after Chapter 3), and is a pain. And Aran doesn't exist in a world where when he gets doubled by things, he takes no damage or very little. When Aran gets doubled, he either dies or almost dies. Edward doesn't get doubled by things, like say Chapter 4's cats, meaning that Edward is actually more durable in the next chapter than Aran. Aran is absolutely wretched in Chapter 4. Meanwhile, Edward's light affinity essentially means that hit problems are never an issue, give him some defense to mitigate his defense problems, and if you gave him the dracoshield he has in the prologue, he'd be at 9 defense without getting a single point in defense. That + Struggling to double and doing so on occasion is much better than what Aran has to offer at base, and because Aran doesn't get faster, his offense never catches up, he kills less, which in turn makes him get less defense and never really be that great. Oh, and to add insult to injury, if you DO invest in Aran, he has 33 speed, which is one point shy of doubling everything you need in the endgame. Sure, you could use a Brave Lance I guess, but options are nice and the Wishblade is pretty cool. I honestly never saw what was so amazing about Aran. He reminds me of Laura. He looks great, but the game seems to not give him a chance to really shine.

You raise some good points, but in all honesty, I prefer Aran in large part because I never saw what's so special about Edward, and because he can actually take hits well when raised. In fact, my perspective on Edward is the same as yours on Aran, pretty much - looks great at first glance, but ultimately fails to stand out due to not really being given a chance to shine.

Edited June 10, 2015 by Levant Caprice

[Phantom037]

All of the Dawn Brigade chapters allow you to deploy everyone, so there's no reason to not use both. Wind Edges have the same might as Iron Bows. Until Leonardo gets something better, the only thing that Leonardo is over Edward is cost efficient (which isn't much of an advantage because money isn't that tight). Leonardo can get a forged bow for an advantage, but then that kinda nullfies the cost efficiency for extra damage, of which if Edward doubles Ed does more. And there are four Wind Edges in part 1 that you can get through bargains. So it's not like this is something that's super niche for Edward to do. It's not until Part 4 that they even need to compete. There, Leo is more likely to be on a team than Edward simply because Edward has to actually be used as a unit to be worth deploying, Leonardo on the other hand, can resume doing what he always did. Doing mediocre damage and not getting hit in the face because he attacks from range and giving someone +2 atk and def.

It really isn't even close though. Aran also has realistic hit problems because of biorhythm that affects him in a really bad way. -10 hit is nothing to scoff at when you first get him (and more than likely, it'll be down or close to worst when you start actually using him after Chapter 3), and is a pain. And Aran doesn't exist in a world where when he gets doubled by things, he takes no damage or very little. When Aran gets doubled, he either dies or almost dies. Edward doesn't get doubled by things, like say Chapter 4's cats, meaning that Edward is actually more durable in the next chapter than Aran. Aran is absolutely wretched in Chapter 4. Meanwhile, Edward's light affinity essentially means that hit problems are never an issue, give him some defense to mitigate his defense problems, and if you gave him the dracoshield he has in the prologue, he'd be at 9 defense without getting a single point in defense. That + Struggling to double and doing so on occasion is much better than what Aran has to offer at base, and because Aran doesn't get faster, his offense never catches up, he kills less, which in turn makes him get less defense and never really be that great. Oh, and to add insult to injury, if you DO invest in Aran, he has 33 speed, which is one point shy of doubling everything you need in the endgame. Sure, you could use a Brave Lance I guess, but options are nice and the Wishblade is pretty cool. I honestly never saw what was so amazing about Aran. He reminds me of Laura. He looks great, but the game seems to not give him a chance to really shine.

Deployment slots for the DB become really tight at 1-7, and limited exp is a good reason to keep kills away from units like Meg. You repeatedly mention biorhythm and accuracy problems Aran has, but at 60 base hit, Eddie's hit rates can be shaky compared to the iron bow's 80 hit, a good reson to leave the chipping to Leo. Edward and Aran are both pretty awful at HM 1-4, Aran is doubled for 7x2 damage by the cats at base, though if he gets a lucky point of speed, he's no longer doubled. The tigers of 1-4 would like to sink their teeth into some Edward, however, and one shot him at base, no doubt leaving him at critical HP at whatever level he'd be at that point. A slight miscalculation, Edward would have 7 defense after the draco shield (which would be better spent on Zihark, but whatever...). And none of these three scrubs are doing anything worthwhile in part 4.

[emblempride]

The problem with DB is that you're forced to use them even in part 3. And in 3-6 you don't have Tormod, Tauroneo, Muarim, & Wolf Queen that you depended on in part 1.

Is just Miccy the staff healer, Zihark, Sothe, Jill, Volug, & Laura Other-staff-healer enough for the part 3 DB chapters? Guess ya should've promoted Aran, Leo, Eddie to tier 2 classes instead of leaving them at level 9!

With Nolan, honestly, yeah if you focused on just those characters. Plenty of people have done it, I don't want to assume but it seems that it's what most do unless they like another character and not one of the good 'uns. Giving Aran, Leo, and Eddie enough experience to promote, even just one of them, means taking experience away from that handful of much better units, which honestly makes 3-6 a lot harder than using a focused group ever could. Others have shown better than I could as to why it's too big a hassle to promote more than a select few of your unpromoted DB beyond EM, so why give Aran, Leo, and Eddie priority or try to make them balanced to the detriment of your other, much much better characters? Plus the BK can handle a whole part of the map on his own.

Good news then if you supported Zihark with Nolan or Volug. However in 3-7 you literally can't recruit Jill & Zihark to Team GM, otherwise subsequent DB chapters become almost impossible without SM eddie (like **** the Caladbolg will make any difference) & promoted Aran

Why would you want to though? I know it's a theoretical, but it's one that is never going to happen. Why put two of your best units on a team that is already kicking the holy shit out of the DB? Haar and Titania make Jill redundant to have on the same team and Mia usually ends up better than or on par with Zihark, no reason to have both of them on one team in part 3.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

True, but at the end of the day, Edward's just a fragile melee unit, which is not exactly a recipe for standing out when most of your group is already frail as it is.

Aran's early game is poor. He cries the most for a forged weapon of all DB members (Meg and Fiona excluded). He requires much more effort in part one to be trained than Edward at least in hard mode.

Ed has better hitrate, dodging abilites and more attack power (can even ORKO some enemies) than Aran. If Aran's speed is stuck, his defense won't help him at all, because he'll get doubled. The enemies in 1-F have up to 17 speed. And it's almost impossible to bring him to level 20 in part one without using bexp. He normally will stuck around level 15-16 at best and will have much problems in part 3. If he has <13 speed he'll be ORKOed by the tigers (a few of them have even 18 AS).

BTW you only need five front units in 3-6 anyway, if you block correclty: Sothe, Jill, Zihark, Nolan and Volug

Imo there's actually no point of using Aran. In general in hard mode I recommend only to focus on few units. Exp. sharing can be fatal, because you need some higher leveled and promoted units in part three.

Edited June 11, 2015 by Mister CatTeaDawn

[Baldrick]

Yeah Edward is fragile, but Aran can get doubled very easily in hard mode. The result is that both will get pretty much the same damage.

This is for the most part not true. I'll use 3-6 as an example because it's a map where you need to be worried about taking damage. For now, assume both Aran/Edward are average 20/1 stats, no BEXP abuse. Edward has 21 AS, 12 defence and Aran has 16 AS, 21 defence. Both have 32 HP.

Class Lv At AS    Ed Aran
Cat   14 22 20    10 02 (1x2)
Cat   15 27 20    15 12 (6x2)
Cat   16 29 22    17 16 (8x2)
Cat   17 31 22    19 20 (10x2)
Tiger 14 32 16    20 11
Tiger 15 39 16    27 18
Tiger 16 39 16    27 18
Tiger 17 41 18    29 20

Supports increase Aran's durability lead since 1 point of defence reduces damage from cats by 2.

If they're higher-levelled, gotten BEXP level-ups etc. Aran will likely have more speed, so he will be doubled less.

Edward also has Wrath, which may allow him to counter-kill and so be exposed to more attacks on the EP.

tl;dr as a general rule, Aran will still be more durable because enemies that double him tend to have low enough attack that his defence lead will minimise the extra damage.

[Ownagepuffs]

Aran's early game is poor. He cries the most for a forged weapon of all DB members (Meg and Fiona excluded). He requires much more effort in part one to be trained than Edward at least in hard mode.

Ed has better hitrate, dodging abilites and more attack power (can even ORKO some enemies) than Aran. If Aran's speed is stuck, his defense won't help him at all, because he'll get doubled. The enemies in 1-F have up to 17 speed. And it's almost impossible to bring him to level 20 in part one without using bexp. He normally will stuck around level 15-16 at best and will have much problems in part 3. If he has <13 speed he'll be ORKOed by the tigers (a few of them have even 18 AS).

BTW you only need five front units in 3-6 anyway, if you block correclty: Sothe, Jill, Zihark, Nolan and Volug

Imo there's actually no point of using Aran. In general in hard mode I recommend only to focus on few units. Exp. sharing can be fatal, because you need some higher leveled and promoted units in part three.

Eddie's better than Aran in HM. But Eddie doesn't dodge. His biorhythm curve in conjunction with WT removal makes sure of that. Eddie will also have an extremely hard time ORKOing if he doesn't proc Spd in the prologue. After Team Daein and the win buttons arrive, even Nolan struggles to keep up.

[Radiant head]

Yeah NM Aran is probably better since you can just bexp his speed and turn him into Haar without wings.

[Shadow Mir]

Aran's early game is poor. He cries the most for a forged weapon of all DB members (Meg and Fiona excluded). He requires much more effort in part one to be trained than Edward at least in hard mode.

Ed has better hitrate, dodging abilites and more attack power (can even ORKO some enemies) than Aran. If Aran's speed is stuck, his defense won't help him at all, because he'll get doubled. The enemies in 1-F have up to 17 speed. And it's almost impossible to bring him to level 20 in part one without using bexp. He normally will stuck around level 15-16 at best and will have much problems in part 3. If he has <13 speed he'll be ORKOed by the tigers (a few of them have even 18 AS).

BTW you only need five front units in 3-6 anyway, if you block correclty: Sothe, Jill, Zihark, Nolan and Volug

Imo there's actually no point of using Aran. In general in hard mode I recommend only to focus on few units. Exp. sharing can be fatal, because you need some higher leveled and promoted units in part three.

Well, Eddie might double, but he isn't really one-rounding anything other than mages, which he'd rather steer clear of.

As to that, whilst I agree that 5 units are sufficient to block in 3-6, I'd be hesitant to rely on a laguz unit who won't be transforming until turn 6, unless I have him use Olivi Grass, which I generally don't (I'd rather use my money for something else), and another one of those units you mentioned is someone who I have a history of being let down by...

I agree that spreading exp too thin is shooting yourself in the foot. That's why I prefer to focus on those that I like or those that actually have future prospects.

[Ownagepuffs]

Yeah NM Aran is probably better since you can just bexp his speed and turn him into Haar without wings.

I dunno, everything in NM works for Eddy. He doubles from prologue, there's mad bexp, early game axes get rekt, and he actually gets a prf for part 3. This is also combined with him ending in one of the more desirable endgame classes.

[Radiant head]

As much as I <3 Mia, I don't think swordmasters are that desirable when it comes to Generals, Dragons, and Auras. You could generally do a lot better, even putting aside the obvious Laguz Royals. And he's low on the priority list compared to the others; you already have Mia, Stefan comes in fully formed for endgame if you wanted him, and Zihark, while kind of hard to raise for endgame, is still ahead of Edward.

Besides that, Eddy's grows pretty well so that if you really like him you can use the hell out of him in NM, but I don't think he provides anything special. He's still fragile, and the prf sword is basically a suboptimal steel forge. He doesn't roflstomp the Ike's Authority Stars Laguz the way a 20/8+bexp/1 Aran does.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Radiant head

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Well, Eddie might double, but he isn't really one-rounding anything other than mages, which he'd rather steer clear of.

As to that, whilst I agree that 5 units are sufficient to block in 3-6, I'd be hesitant to rely on a laguz unit who won't be transforming until turn 6, unless I have him use Olivi Grass, which I generally don't (I'd rather use my money for something else), and another one of those units you mentioned is someone who I have a history of being let down by...

With the brave sword he still can. However I see the quote already coming that the brave sword is too precious to use in part one.

Olivi grass in 1-8 isn't expensive at all.

BTW you'll get some (useless) weapons in the base of 3-6 (steel weapons, vulneraries, Volug's skill...), which you can sell.

I dunno, everything in NM works for Eddy. He doubles from prologue, there's mad bexp, early game axes get rekt, and he actually gets a prf for part 3. This is also combined with him ending in one of the more desirable endgame classes.

In NM you use him against axe users because of the existing weapon triangle. However he won't take two steel axes in his face. With supports he'd survive two steel lances, but he'll have hit and dodge issues.

In HM I use Ed differently. He attacks soldiers, who do less damage than fighters. Since he has no weapon triangle disadvantage anymore does and takes as much as damage like in NM, only that his hitrate is better. With Leo support (+3 defense) he can take two steel lances and maybe even two steel bows, if you're lucky with his defense.

Except for the first four chapters Edward isn't harder to use in part 1 than on NM. He just needs the strength and speed early on.

In NM part 3 Edward still can be killed by two tigers, who have an attack power of 32-34 (there are very few S strike tigers as well).

Aran can still tank the soldiers and myrms on NM thanks to the weapon triangle. In hard mode the myrms do more damage to him, double him and have a very decent critrate. However I've seen a LP, where Aran survived two crits in a row by the myrm with the killing edge in 1-F.

Another of him is that he's worst range weapon user, because javelins have surprisingly lower accuracy than hand axes.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Mister CatTeaDawn