Thane Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) It's not the "Nohrians" though, that's my issue with it. You're acting like the Nohrians are a mass of evil and extension of Garon, rather than actual people. Garon, Gunz and McBeth are evil, but by turning against them through military action you're still killing many people that had nothing to do with that. The executions done by those three, overruling Kamui's attempts to spare his foes as far as I remember are always against the enemy soldiers themselves too. So, it's not like Kamui is standing while watching non-fighting civilians being killed. He's watching an invading army and their allies being killed. Marx's whole dilemma right before the reveal is to go against a minor order like opening a room that was supposed to stay closed. You really can't take that and act like it's proof that he'd turn against Garon with military force. Kamui returns to Nohr under accusations of having returned under Hoshido orders to kill Garon, which is why he first needs to prove himself loyal, and so never acts against direct orders. Having to work under an evil ruler and making the best out of it, without immediately resorting to rebellion is pretty interesting storytelling to me considering how it's a rather unusual path for a protagonist, not even just in FE itself but in general. Now, I think various other elements could have been handled better, especially the cheap plot device reveal of Garon's identity, but I don't see how just making the Nohr route into a "create a rebel Nohr faction and turn against Norh empire" story would have been interesting at all. In fact, I guess I might be biased for Nohr just because that, which was my worst fear for the route, didn't really happen. Where did I make any claim that could be interpreted as such? I'm not asking that to sound sassy, I'm genuinely curious, since it wasn't my intention to say anything of the sort. The game does show that there's good in both kingdoms, but what they do fail to show are bad Hoshidians. When I said "Nohrians" I mostly meant Ganz, Iago and Garon, but I'm sorry if that was unclear. Innocent civilians are killed during the invasion of Hoshido though, once again by Ganz and Iago against Kamui's wishes. Also, an invading army and their allies being killed? That happened once, the other time Iago and Ganz started killing people against Kamui's wishes was when Sakura and her forces surrendered - on Hoshido soil. Also, didn't Ganz set fire to the entire village Crimson had been? While true, it didn't take him long to believe Kamui. Also, if you had told Xander about this way before the invasion together with Aqua, it would have been far more natural than what we got - it's possible the only reason Xander was so skeptical to begin with was because of how sudden Kamui's idea to kill Garon was - and it really was sudden, once again highlighted by Leon. As Jedi said, that is how the Nohr route was advertised though. Also, as for Kamui proving himself loyal just doesn't work since Garon doesn't care and Iago never believes him - Garon orders Iago to make Kamui suffer even though he's fulfilling his duties. If they had been planning a rebellion while trying to stay on Garon's good side, that would've been far more interesting than "stay on his good side because you need to invade a country so he can sit on a throne". You're free to enjoy whatever you wish, but I can't see how you think what we got was more interesting than what was promised. Edited July 6, 2015 by Thane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanima Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Personally, I have never understood the appeal of an 'evil route'. I just don't like/have fun playing as a complete monster who slaughters people for fun, outside of games like Skyrim where I just didn't feel any emotional connection to any of the characters. In games with a preestablished storyline and characters that I like..why would I want to kill them all? If that ends up as a dlc I'll be fine with it, because it saves me some money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeonZ Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) Where did I make any claim that could be interpreted as such? I'm not asking that to sound sassy, I'm genuinely curious, since it wasn't my intention to say anything of the sort. The game does show that there's good in both kingdoms, but what they do fail to show are bad Hoshidians. When I said "Nohrians" I mostly meant Ganz, Iago and Garon, but I'm sorry if that was unclear. Innocent civilians are killed during the invasion of Hoshido though, once again by Ganz and Iago against Kamui's wishes. Also, an invading army and their allies being killed? That happened once, the other time Iago and Ganz started killing people against Kamui's wishes was when Sakura and her forces surrendered - on Hoshido soil. While true, it didn't take him long to believe Kamui. Also, if you had told Xander about this way before the invasion together with Aqua, it would have been far more natural than what we got - it's possible the only reason Xander was so skeptical to begin with was because of how sudden Kamui's idea to kill Garon was - and it really was sudden, once again highlighted by Leon. As Jedi said, that is how the Nohr route was advertised though. Also, as for Kamui proving himself loyal just doesn't work since Garon doesn't care and Iago never believes him - Garon orders Iago to make Kamui suffer even though he's fulfilling his duties. If they had been planning a rebellion while trying to stay on Garon's good side, that would've been far more interesting than "stay on his good side because you need to invade a country so he can sit on a throne". You're free to enjoy whatever you wish, but I can't see how you think what we got was more interesting than what was promised. A rebellion against Nohr was never promised by the marketing though, i don't know from where you're getting that. And how would it be interesting at all? It'd be basically the Hoshido campaign with a different main cast and worse antagonists. Anyway, the execution scene after Sakura surrenders only mentions soldiers being killed. In Nohr's story, Hoshido are an invading army that attacks Nohr during most of the story while Nohr basically just holds territory. Just because they're finally being counterattacked towards the ending doesn't change all that. And that's also the only time you've got Gunz and McBeth taking things over during the invasion chapters, IIRC. "Didn' take long to believe Kamui?" But it was just for opening a door. Like I said, you can't take that and act like it's proof he'd attempt to kill Garon in other circumstances. Edited July 6, 2015 by NeonZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thane Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) A rebellion against Nohr was never promised by the marketing though, i don't know from where you're getting that. And how would it be interesting at all? It'd be basically the Hoshido campaign with a different main cast and worse antagonists. Anyway, the execution scene after Sakura surrenders only mentions soldiers being killed. In Nohr's story, Hoshido are an invading army that attacks Nohr during most of the story while Nohr basically just holds territory. Just because they're finally being counterattacked towards the ending doesn't change all that. And that's also the only time you've got Gunz and McBeth taking things over during the invasion chapters, IIRC. "Didn' take long to believe Kamui?" But it was just for opening a door. Like I said, you can't take that and act like it's proof he'd attempt to kill Garon in other circumstances. "On the other hand, if you choose the Nohr, you'll be forced to revolutionize an unruly kingdom from the inside, so the story will be slightly more complex and the difficulty will be more challenging. " - Nintendo direct, April the first 2015. Discussing preferences won't get us very far. I like it because it would offer more variation, could really separate the two paths if you for instance kill Garon in early on in the Nohr route. There are a lot of things I think would be improved just by leading a rebellion as opposed to invading Hoshido, but if we don't agree then there's nothing to discuss, because people like different things and that's okay. I'm just responding to what you said, that he's only watching an invading army's soldiers being killed - that's just not the case, of which I gave you an example. Then the same goes for your argument: if that doesn't prove Xander believing Kamui, then his skepticism might as well have come from the suddenness of Kamui's proposal, and would have been agreed to kill Garon if he had been given time and enough reason to go through with it. Indeed, we can't prove anything, but from where I'm standing, that definitely seems plausible. Edited July 6, 2015 by Thane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeonZ Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) "On the other hand, if you choose the Nohr, you'll be forced to revolutionize an unruly kingdom from the inside, so the story will be slightly more complex and the difficulty will be more challenging. " - Nintendo direct, April the first 2015. Discussing preferences won't get us very far. I like it because it would offer more variation, could really separate the two paths if you for instance kill Garon in early on in the Nohr route. There are a lot of things I think would be improved just by leading a rebellion as opposed to invading Hoshido, but if we don't agree then there's nothing to discuss, because people like different things and that's okay. I'm just responding to what you said, that he's only watching an invading army's soldiers being killed - that's just not the case, of which I gave you an example. Then the same goes for your argument: if that doesn't prove Xander believing Kamui, then his skepticism might as well have come from the suddenness of Kamui's proposal, and would have been agreed to kill Garon if he had been given time and enough reason to go through with it. Indeed, we can't prove anything, but from where I'm standing, that definitely seems plausible. The part about 'revolutionizing" anything was only from NoA though. The original wording just said "changing from the inside", which implies not forming a separate faction. Anyway, Kamui does change Nohr to a point through the game. The Ice Tribe has a very different fate from what happens in a Kamui-less Nohr, and during the Hoshido invasion, although there's some interference in the battle with Sakura, for example, look at the one against Hinoka. Garon's Nohr without Kamui would just have executed everyone again there. Obviously the country is never completely changed until Garon is exposed, but saying that Kamui's actions were worthless and had no effect beforehand is just a lie too. And I was just questioning your examples, like how in the Sakura battle they only talk about executing surrendered soldiers. Are you really comparing opening a door against orders with actually betraying Garon and turning Marx's troops against him? And Marx even hesitated with the freaking door. The idea that he could potentially turn against Garon based on the accusation that he was a monster without any proof just sounds out of place to me based on what's shown in the game. Edited July 6, 2015 by NeonZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thane Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 The part about 'revolutionizing" anything was only from NoA though. The original wording just said "changing from the inside", which implies not forming a separate faction. Anyway, Kamui does change Nohr to a point through the game. The Ice Tribe has a very different fate from what happens in a Kamui-less Nohr, and during the Hoshido invasion, although there's some interference in the battle with Sakura, for example, look at the one against Hinoka. Garon's Nohr without Kamui would just have executed everyone again there. Obviously the country is never completely changed until Garon is exposed, but saying that Kamui's actions were worthless and had no effect beforehand is just a lie too. And I was just questioning your examples, like how in the Sakura battle they only talk about executing surrendered soldiers. Are you really comparing opening a door against orders with actually betraying Garon and turning Marx's troops against him? And Marx even hesitated with the freaking door. The idea that he could potentially turn against Garon based on the accusation that he was a monster without any proof just sounds out of place to me based on what's shown in the game. Alright. You're obviously not interested in even listening to my arguments and you're nitpicking so much that I think it's best that we agree to disagree. I'm glad that you enjoyed the story, but if not even a direct quote from Nintendo is enough to deter you from continuing your strawman arguments, then this discussion is pointless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeonZ Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) Alright. You're obviously not interested in even listening to my arguments and you're nitpicking so much that I think it's best that we agree to disagree. I'm glad that you enjoyed the story, but if not even a direct quote from Nintendo is enough to deter you from continuing your strawman arguments, then this discussion is pointless. It's a direct quote from NoA though, not NoJ or IS. You might complain about NoA being misleading, but they've been constantly doing that in regards to this game, like when they talked about a "choice" in the same Direct without revealing the two separate versions, unlike in the Japanese one where the versions were revealed there. Even so, it'd be only applicable after we have the localized version since it's NoA. Anyway, you're claiming that I'm "nitpicking" and using "strawman arguments", and I'm the one not interested in your arguments, even though I've been replying to your points this entire time without attempting to diminish the value of your words... Can't you see the contradiction in that? You're right about this clearly not going anywhere though. Edited July 6, 2015 by NeonZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fyras4 Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) Well...an evil 4th route seems interesting...but not really at the same time; unless the main character goes full on psycho because of his dragon genetics then this route would just be "You're dead and I don't like you..." kinda of thing. Unless they did something like with the alternate timeline in Awakening where none of the children went to the future to change fate; except its the main character that goes back and becomes the 'bad guy' for everyone involved. Considering the endings on both route and the fact that the third route gives us a new problem all together (which from what I got from a few spoilers doesn't really...solve the real problem in the long run). I would like something like that instead...it would feel cool. Two Kamuis...why not? Edited July 6, 2015 by Fyras4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRTJR Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 I'd go for an evil conquest of all type path so yah more fire emblem is good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Well...an evil 4th route seems interesting...but not really at the same time; unless the main character goes full on psycho because of his dragon genetics then this route would just be "You're dead and I don't like you..." kinda of thing. I'd rather a more morally ambiguous gotta beat both Kingdoms then be outright evil. Soul Nomad and the World Eaters. Demon route still makes me go ._. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaze The Great Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Yes because I'm an evil sadist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fyras4 Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 I'd rather a more morally ambiguous gotta beat both Kingdoms then be outright evil. Soul Nomad and the World Eaters. Demon route still makes me go ._. Well, going evil is always the easiest thing in some games...going all Walhart on them is a better option, in my opinion. Except less killing and more flower crowns or something of the sort. ...but whatever floats your boat, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SageOfAnys Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Even though I'll probably be crying the entire time because I actually love all the characters in the game so far, sure, why not. It'll be interesting also to see how the different Nohrian and Hoshidan characters interact now that there's a third party that's intent on destroying both sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twylis Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 ​Only if Kamui gets a long, twirly moustache available in customisation purely for this route. Otherwise, naw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Royal Red Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) I would like the premise, but my soul could not take the slaughter of both of my families. That would destroy my life. Edited July 6, 2015 by SilentSavior Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yunanuy Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 They could do it similarily to the plot of Code Geass. Kamui becoming the bigger evil so Nohr and Hoshido has to unite to take him down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Water Mage Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) They could do it similarily to the plot of Code Geass. Kamui becoming the bigger evil so Nohr and Hoshido has to unite to take him down.That's...actually a pretty good idea, I can imagine Corrin reaching to this point out of desperation and grief.It would show that he love his family so much, that's he is willing to become evil. Edited July 6, 2015 by Water Mage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pretty_Handsome Posted July 6, 2015 Author Share Posted July 6, 2015 They could do it similarily to the plot of Code Geass. Kamui becoming the bigger evil so Nohr and Hoshido has to unite to take him down. I wonder how that would work... I mean, the real big bad wou l d expect Kamui to slaughter both sides nit let them gather up or unite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yunanuy Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) It could work if Kamui suddenly came to the conclusion that both sides were in the wrong. He could provoke the Hoshidans by saying that he did in fact kill his mama on purpose, and pretend to side with the Nohrians, then assassinate Garon as soon as he returned. The fact that Kamui's apparently not strong enough yet to beat Marx/Xander could be covered with his manakete form being able to. His breakdown after Mikoto's death could pretty much be considered a powerup... I dunno I'm not a writer Edited July 6, 2015 by Valair Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.Leu Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) Problem is, I don't want to be a Messiah, a Conqueror, or whatever. I already don't want to be a Suzaku, but being a Messiah is even worse. :p Let me be evil, seriously. Edited July 6, 2015 by B.Leu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Laufeyson Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 YES Yes i would. Without question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerosabers Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Only if I can enslave the natives and force them into battle on the front lines with no training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awakener_ Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) Do it like Code Geass, I don't like being evil for the stake of being evil. Kamui -> Lelouch and Azura -> C.C I will love to play that kind of route. Edited July 6, 2015 by Awakener_ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pretty_Handsome Posted July 6, 2015 Author Share Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) It could work if Kamui suddenly came to the conclusion that both sides were in the wrong. He could provoke the Hoshidans by saying that he did in fact kill his mama on purpose, and pretend to side with the Nohrians, then assassinate Garon as soon as he returned. The fact that Kamui's apparently not strong enough yet to beat Marx/Xander could be covered with his manakete form being able to. His breakdown after Mikoto's death could pretty much be considered a powerup... I dunno I'm not a writer Well, his/her true origins may be enough... Do it like Code Geass, I don't like being evil for the stake of being evil. Kamui -> Lelouch and Azura -> C.C I will love to play that kind of route. But we're missing Suzaku and Kallen! Edited July 6, 2015 by Pretty_Handsome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yunanuy Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Well, his/her true origins may be enough... But we're missing Suzaku and Kallen! Uh, Cyrus? Joker and Felicia? Suzukaze? Take your pick really :P Anna x) I don't know about Kamui's "true origins", but if it ties up things well, then that just makes everything better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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