General US Politics

[Moblin Major General]

makalov fan's posts typically read of extreme irrational islamophobia, and yet I'm pretty sure radical white Christians are just as likely if not more to kill someone for their sexuality or gender identity

Prejudiced killings of LGBTs by Christians hasn't happened in the West since the Shoah, which almost forever tainted the reputation of Germany. It might still happen in places new to Christianity, but even Westernized Islamist nations take serious issue with tolerating women's rights, LGBT rights, abortion, among other issues people in Western Nations take for granted.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Prejudiced killings of LGBTs by Christians hasn't happened in the West since the Shoah, which almost forever tainted the reputation of Germany. It might still happen in places new to Christianity, but even Westernized Islamist nations take serious issue with tolerating women's rights, LGBT rights, abortion, among other issues people in Western Nations take for granted.

very good post, i don't care about what Christian's might've done in the past regarding Christianity but that is before my time and it really doesn't happen anymore.

meanwhile you have stuff like the orlando shooting, and the terrible treatment of everyone that isn't a straight Arabic male in the middle east all because of the main religion over there.

i just do not see a single good thing about this religion, checking out the Quran has been the single most terrifying book i have ever read, and i don't know about you, i wouldn't be taking even a 15% chance of being killed in one shot in fire emblem, so there's no way i'd actually take the same chance in real life.

I honestly believe is there no other religion that is this bad when it comes to human rights.

[solrocknroll]

very good post, i don't care about what Christian's might've done in the past regarding Christianity but that is before my time and it really doesn't happen anymore.

meanwhile you have stuff like the orlando shooting, and the terrible treatment of everyone that isn't a straight Arabic male in the middle east all because of the main religion over there.

i just do not see a single good thing about this religion, checking out the Quran has been the single most terrifying book i have ever read, and i don't know about you, i wouldn't be taking even a 15% chance of being killed in one shot in fire emblem, so there's no way i'd actually take the same chance in real life.

I honestly believe is there no other religion that is this bad when it comes to human rights.

Okay, fine.

But my other question for you: what actual reason do you have to be Republican?

You've stated that you're voting for Trump, yet Trump is against gay rights and such, explicitly against the restroom issue. So why would you, a member of the LGBT community, actively vote against yourself time and again? Trump's Justices, which would be the most important part of social rights, will obviously be super conservative. Hillary herself may not be the best, but her Justices would be just as favorable as Obama's.

[Tryhard]

if you're talking about sanctioned killing by the state or powerful within a country, then yes

but christian citizens are still attacking or killing lgbt people, it still happens, just people correctly identify it as unhinged people and not as some higher indicative thing

the vast majority of known offenders of hate crimes against lgbt (46%) are perpetrated by white people in the us (from report in 2009), and specifically ties between right-wing authoritarianism, and religious fundamentalism. otherwise, it may be non-religious homophobes.

http://hrc-assets.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com//files/assets/resources/Hatecrimesandviolenceagainstlgbtpeople_2009.pdf

Edited August 16, 2016 by Tryhard

[Phoenix Wright]

very good post, i don't care about what Christian's might've done in the past regarding Christianity but that is before my time and it really doesn't happen anymore.

meanwhile you have stuff like the orlando shooting, and the terrible treatment of everyone that isn't a straight Arabic male in the middle east all because of the main religion over there.

i just do not see a single good thing about this religion, checking out the Quran has been the single most terrifying book i have ever read, and i don't know about you, i wouldn't be taking even a 15% chance of being killed in one shot in fire emblem, so there's no way i'd actually take the same chance in real life.

I honestly believe is there no other religion that is this bad when it comes to human rights.

you didn't even answer my question.

i'm not sure of what good comes from any religion...and i know eclispe gets mad whenever anyone says christianity is bad, so i want to differentiate between faith and establishment in this case. i am not sure of the utility of established religion as a whole.

nevertheless, your fear of arabs (of which it is clear you don't know very much about) is unfounded. i understand you are afraid, and that is a feeling which i don't wish to undermine, but you're okay with ignoring the plights of lives who wish to escape similar or worse persecutions. refugees have not committed any atrocities to date; those have all been radicalized citizens. with our ridiculous vetting process, you're much more likely to be harmed by basically any other group.

[Moblin Major General]

you didn't even answer my question.

i'm not sure of what good comes from any religion...and i know eclispe gets mad whenever anyone says christianity is bad, so i want to differentiate between faith and establishment in this case. i am not sure of the utility of established religion as a whole.

nevertheless, your fear of arabs (of which it is clear you don't know very much about) is unfounded. i understand you are afraid, and that is a feeling which i don't wish to undermine, but you're okay with ignoring the plights of lives who wish to escape similar or worse persecutions. refugees have not committed any atrocities to date; those have all been radicalized citizens. with our ridiculous vetting process, you're much more likely to be harmed by basically any other group.

Any refugee that isn't Eritrean, Yazidi, Kurdish, or Jewish are suspect to me. They could stay for the betterment of their country, but instead they attempt to emigrate to Europe in order to gain the rights they should be fighting for at home. Were people in the American colonies fleeing to Europe and Britain because of the fighting? Possibly, but many more flocked into America so as to gain freedom for themselves and for other people. Also, pertaining to your comment about refugees not commiting crimes, that's correct, in a way. Syrian refugees are innocent, but part of the fear of refugees is that there are potential Daesh sleepers among true refugees. Personally, I would accept them, but the fear of refugees committing terrorism is almost the same as undocumented or illegal immigrants coming across the border and committing a violent or sexual crime. I make the distinction because some undocumented people are desperate enough to do something stupid, whereas illegals emigrate to America with the explicit purpose of doing something illegal, like Cartels.

[Balcerzak]

can you even point to one refugee that's committed an act of terror against anyone in the us, let alone homosexuals?

Not necessarily an act of terror, but there was that sexual assault on a girl in Idaho by children of refugees from, I believe it was Iraq.

[CyborgZeta]

There were Iraqi refugees in Kentucky that were later revealed to have links to terror.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/terrorists-refugee-program-settle-us/story?id=35252500

This happened before I moved here, but the Obama administration temporarily suspended refugees from Iraq as a result.

Edited August 16, 2016 by CyborgZeta

[Comet]

middle east 101

the bad guys are the muslim extremists. the not bad guys aren't them. the not bad guys want to get away from the bad guys because they're bad and it's terrible in the middle east because of the bad guys. so we should just kick all of the not bad guys back to the land of war, right?

Prejudiced killings of LGBTs by Christians hasn't happened in the West since the Shoah, which almost forever tainted the reputation of Germany. It might still happen in places new to Christianity, but even Westernized Islamist nations take serious issue with tolerating women's rights, LGBT rights, abortion, among other issues people in Western Nations take for granted.

do you setiously think this isn't still an issue?

very good post, i don't care about what Christian's might've done in the past regarding Christianity but that is before my time and it really doesn't happen anymore.

meanwhile you have stuff like the orlando shooting, and the terrible treatment of everyone that isn't a straight Arabic male in the middle east all because of the main religion over there.

i just do not see a single good thing about this religion, checking out the Quran has been the single most terrifying book i have ever read, and i don't know about you, i wouldn't be taking even a 15% chance of being killed in one shot in fire emblem, so there's no way i'd actually take the same chance in real life.

I honestly believe is there no other religion that is this bad when it comes to human rights.

meanwhile nobody accepts everything in the bible word for word, and for a good reason.

[tuvarkz]

Okay, fine.

But my other question for you: what actual reason do you have to be Republican?

You've stated that you're voting for Trump, yet Trump is against gay rights and such, explicitly against the restroom issue. So why would you, a member of the LGBT community, actively vote against yourself time and again? Trump's Justices, which would be the most important part of social rights, will obviously be super conservative. Hillary herself may not be the best, but her Justices would be just as favorable as Obama's.

Unless I recall wrongly, Trump is pro people using whatever restroom they wanted. There was a signficant blowup amongst certain alt-right sites due to this.

[euklyd]

Unless I recall wrongly, Trump is pro people using whatever restroom they wanted. There was a signficant blowup amongst certain alt-right sites due to this.

While I believe this is his current position, it's probably worth pointing out that he definitely has not held it for the entire race.

With all fairness, though, he adopted it well before Ted Cruz was out of the race, so it's quite possible it's not simply pandering to the general electorate (especially since Trump has been very bad at reversing other positions to pander to the general electorate).

EDIT: It was pointed out to me that Trump being relatively accepting of transgender people extends back to his beauty pageants, so there's probably something there.

Also the vetting process for refugees is ridiculously extensive. Probably more extensive than for just about any other application that isn't a national security clearance, and even then I'm not sure that the refugee background investigations aren't more thorough.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Euklyd

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Unless I recall wrongly, Trump is pro people using whatever restroom they wanted. There was a signficant blowup amongst certain alt-right sites due to this.

yup i remember that, i'm not sure where this news of "he disliked the restroom choice" thing came from.

@comet, damn straight people don't, i know i don't.

Not necessarily an act of terror, but there was that sexual assault on a girl in Idaho by children of refugees from, I believe it was Iraq.

There were Iraqi refugees in Kentucky that were later revealed to have links to terror.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/terrorists-refugee-program-settle-us/story?id=35252500

This happened before I moved here, but the Obama administration temporarily suspended refugees from Iraq as a result.

also these are prime examples of refugee attacks, @PW you can't just say that these kinds of events didn't happen.

[Phoenix Wright]

Any refugee that isn't Eritrean, Yazidi, Kurdish, or Jewish are suspect to me. They could stay for the betterment of their country, but instead they attempt to emigrate to Europe in order to gain the rights they should be fighting for at home. Were people in the American colonies fleeing to Europe and Britain because of the fighting? Possibly, but many more flocked into America so as to gain freedom for themselves and for other people. Also, pertaining to your comment about refugees not commiting crimes, that's correct, in a way. Syrian refugees are innocent, but part of the fear of refugees is that there are potential Daesh sleepers among true refugees. Personally, I would accept them, but the fear of refugees committing terrorism is almost the same as undocumented or illegal immigrants coming across the border and committing a violent or sexual crime. I make the distinction because some undocumented people are desperate enough to do something stupid, whereas illegals emigrate to America with the explicit purpose of doing something illegal, like Cartels.

okay good for you lol. a little xenophobic though. you telling me that if you met a south african or ethiopian or indian (if i may use refugee loosely) came to this country to live in safer conditions than at home, you're immediately suspect?

pardon me, but who the fuck are you to tell people what they "should be fighting for"? if i were an atheist living in saudi arabia, you sure as shit should expect me to tell sa to go fuck itself. i should not be expected to give my life (or risk it) for any effort, no matter how virtuous. i don't care why people came to america lol. and ask the indians and non-puritans of the time who should have freedom.

Not necessarily an act of terror, but there was that sexual assault on a girl in Idaho by children of refugees from, I believe it was Iraq.

i didn't say refugees were unable to commit crimes.

yup i remember that, i'm not sure where this news of "he disliked the restroom choice" thing came from.

@comet, damn straight people don't, i know i don't.

also these are prime examples of refugee attacks, @PW you can't just say that these kinds of events didn't happen.

no, they aren't prime examples. the vetting process wasn't ridiculous in '09, compared to today at least. and sexual assault, though disgusting and wrong, i wouldn't consider an act of terror.

also, 1/thousands doesn't mean we should ban immigration. that is very silly logic.

[-Cynthia-]

The truth is that yes, some immigrants do commit crime. This does not seem like a logical reason to ban all of them when immigrants overall commit fewer crimes than natural born citizens in the United States. http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-mythical-connection-between-immigrants-and-crime-1436916798

Edited August 16, 2016 by -Cynthia-

[CyborgZeta]

Considering the immigrant population is dwarfed by the native population, it should be a given that they would statistically commit less crimes than US citizens.

Also, WSJ requires a subscription to read.

Edited August 16, 2016 by CyborgZeta

[Moblin Major General]

okay good for you lol. a little xenophobic though. you telling me that if you met a south african or ethiopian or indian (if i may use refugee loosely) came to this country to live in safer conditions than at home, you're immediately suspect?

pardon me, but who the fuck are you to tell people what they "should be fighting for"? if i were an atheist living in saudi arabia, you sure as shit should expect me to tell sa to go fuck itself. i should not be expected to give my life (or risk it) for any effort, no matter how virtuous. i don't care why people came to america lol. and ask the indians and non-puritans of the time who should have freedom.

Refugee- a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster.

I do not take the term refugee lightly, unlike you, apparently. Very few of the Syrians were forced to leave. They chose to leave because nothing was stopping them from leaving. Also, refugee does not apply to people from any of those countries, as they can leave with little issue other than affording documentation.

As for fighting for something, Syria has been a shithole since 2010, and Assad has abused his power. The people needed to rally to fight for basic rights, but instead many cut and ran because they lacked the stomach to do the right thing. They showed cowardice when this should've been the success in the face of the failures of the Arab Winter. Instead, the wound festered and fostered the rise of the most destructive sect in Muslim history.

[-Cynthia-]

Considering the immigrant population dwarfs the native population, it should be a given that they would statistically commit less crimes than US citizens.

Also, WSJ requires a subscription to read.

Immigrants are lower by rate, not just by raw numbers. http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/jtf/JTF_ImmigrantsCrimeJTF.pdf

https://www.chicagofed.org/publications/working-papers/2005/2005-19

The tables here http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/debunking-myth-immigrant-criminality-imprisonment-among-first-and-second-generation-young also support that natural born young men are more likely criminals than immigrant young men.

Edited August 16, 2016 by -Cynthia-

[euklyd]

escape war

What the fuck do you think is going on in Syria then

Considering the immigrant population dwarfs the native population, it should be a given that they would statistically commit less crimes than US citizens.

"should be a given" I'm not sure you know what statistics are, then

Also the total foreign-born population in the US is less than 15% so you're wrong on both counts

[Lord Raven]

Depends on your definition of "forced."

Also, CyborgZeta: http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-mythical-connection-between-immigrants-and-crime-1436916798

Prejudiced killings of LGBTs by Christians hasn't happened in the West since the Shoah, which almost forever tainted the reputation of Germany. It might still happen in places new to Christianity, but even Westernized Islamist nations take serious issue with tolerating women's rights, LGBT rights, abortion, among other issues people in Western Nations take for granted.

Wait, are you literally saying that there haven't been prejudiced killings of LGBT in the west by Christians since the fuckin' Holocaust? There is absolutely no way this is correct, given this exists.

very good post, i don't care about what Christian's might've done in the past regarding Christianity but that is before my time and it really doesn't happen anymore.

meanwhile you have stuff like the orlando shooting, and the terrible treatment of everyone that isn't a straight Arabic male in the middle east all because of the main religion over there.

It still happens... The Orlando shooting wasn't even done by a refugee, it was done by a native of the United States, and he sure as hell wasn't the son of a refugee either.

i just do not see a single good thing about this religion, checking out the Quran has been the single most terrifying book i have ever read, and i don't know about you, i wouldn't be taking even a 15% chance of being killed in one shot in fire emblem, so there's no way i'd actually take the same chance in real life.

The Bible and Torah are almost the same shit. I don't really want to drag other religions down with Islam, but let's not pretend that radicalization of any religion is good nor is the content of the Quran any better or worse than that of the Bible.

I personally don't see a single good thing about its leadership. I mean, some of these refugees have gone through shit that you can't even imagine; a friend of my dad's saw her dad get murdered by the Taliban, and then they kidnapped her mother and sister and murdered them too. Her grandmother basically got her out of the country and into the US for safety.

I'm also surprised you didn't post in this thread, which could've given you the exact mouthpiece you needed to spit out some of this vitriol.

I honestly believe is there no other religion that is this bad when it comes to human rights.

I mean, yes, when you have so much shit going on there that is in part spurned by the western obsession with the middle east over the years, then you're going to have a ton of turmoil that allows groups like these to take over. The refugees are also the ones that are sick of this kind of shit, so they sure as hell aren't gonna wanna stay. I mean, isn't this all the more reason to accept refugees? Isn't this in actuality the point of refugees? Besides, until recently the United States pretty much allowed for discrimination against the LGBT community on the grounds of marriage, the workplace, and the military. The fact that transpeople can't choose the bathroom they want to use being a controversial issue is absolutely nuts. The country you live in has never been a hallmark of western social progress, either, due to a Christian-influenced government.

yup i remember that, i'm not sure where this news of "he disliked the restroom choice" thing came from.

Probably not because of him, but because of his VP candidate, who has voted against transpeople being able to pick their bathrooms, he has voted against the repealing of Don't Ask Don't Tell, voted against bills that allowed employers to discriminate against LGBT, and would undoubtedly try to get a measure passed to repeal the law that allows gay marriage in America. Trump's VP has infinitely more legislative experience than Trump himself and he's extremely socially conservative, and Trump is incompetent. The VP is definitely more powerful, and basically all of Trump's calls towards VP candidates had him offering them the title of "most powerful VP in history." Don't pretend this is irrelevant.

also these are prime examples of refugee attacks, @PW you can't just say that these kinds of events didn't happen.

Here's a quote from the WSJ article that Cynthia linked:

It also holds true in states with large populations of illegal residents. A 2008 report by the Public Policy Institute of California found that immigrants are underrepresented in the prison system. “The incarceration rate for foreign-born adults is 297 per 100,000 in the population, compared [with] 813 per 100,000 for U.S.-born adults,” the study concludes. “The foreign-born, who make up roughly 35% of California’s adult population, constitute 17% of the state prison population.”

You're more afraid of illegal immigrant/refugee attacks than attacks by the natives? I'm also going to put into perspective once again that the Orlando shooting was someone who was born and raised in the United States. At which point, are you anti-Muslim or anti-refugee? Because one doesn't lead to the other, since anti-Muslim would mean that you want all of the people like me rounded up and deported or some shit.

[CyborgZeta]

Also the total foreign-born population in the US is less than 15% so you're wrong on both counts

I apologize, I phrased that sentence wrong; no need to get testy. What I meant to say was that the immigrant population is much smaller than the native population.

Also, CyborgZeta: http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-mythical-connection-between-immigrants-and-crime-1436916798

Sorry, still requires a subscription for me.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

@raven I don't care that it wasn't done by a refugee, i care that it was done by an radical Muslim that pledged his life to ISIS moments before he committed the crime, and what is the religion that most of these refugee's worship, oh yeah, its Islam.

[Phoenix Wright]

Refugee- a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster.

I do not take the term refugee lightly, unlike you, apparently. Very few of the Syrians were forced to leave. They chose to leave because nothing was stopping them from leaving. Also, refugee does not apply to people from any of those countries, as they can leave with little issue other than affording documentation.

As for fighting for something, Syria has been a shithole since 2010, and Assad has abused his power. The people needed to rally to fight for basic rights, but instead many cut and ran because they lacked the stomach to do the right thing. They showed cowardice when this should've been the success in the face of the failures of the Arab Winter. Instead, the wound festered and fostered the rise of the most destructive sect in Muslim history.

i said loosely, not lightly lol.

it's like you didn't even read my post for the second bit

@raven I don't care that it wasn't done by a refugee, i care that it was done by an radical Muslim that pledged his life to ISIS moments before he committed the crime, and what is the religion that most of these refugee's worship, oh yeah, its Islam.

i'm pretty sure he wasn't actually a devout muslim.

and you should care, because you wanna ban refugees even though they aren't the ones committing atrocities.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Phoenix Wright

[Moblin Major General]

Wait, are you literally saying that there haven't been prejudiced killings of LGBT in the west by Christians since the fuckin' Holocaust? There is absolutely no way this is correct, given this exists.

Killings that were sponsored and/or endorsed by Western Powers holding fundamental Christian values. Individual killings always have been and always will be a thing.

[Lord Raven]

I apologize, I phrased that sentence wrong; no need to get testy. What I meant to say was that the immigrant population is much smaller than the native population.

Yes, but the rate at which these are occurring among the immigrant population is much less than the native population.

@raven I don't care that it wasn't done by a refugee, i care that it was done by an radical Muslim that pledged his life to ISIS moments before he committed the crime, and what is the religion that most of these refugee's worship, oh yeah, its Islam.

I don't see what this has to do with refugees. I also don't see where you acknowledged any other part of my post.

Phoenix Wright also covered the rest of it, where he was not a devout Muslim or a radical, he was just a crazy dude who happened to be descended from a Muslim family. Muslims have been living in the countries for fucking decades bro, and one Muslim doing a mass shooting is a) a reason to deny all refugees and b) a reason to deny all Muslim immigrants? I guess I don't blame you, because white people scare the fucking shit out of me because they commit a ton of mass shootings in the US and a ton of them hold views like yours. I really wish I could be more logical when I'm talking about this, but I have a hard time doing so because of people like you treating me like shit for this.

Having that said, not only was that guy not a refugee, not only did he have nothing to do with the refugees you talk about, and not only was he not a devout Muslim, but can you link to any western Muslims that even vindicated him?

Killings that were sponsored and/or endorsed by Western Powers holding fundamental Christian values. Individual killings always have been and always will be a thing.

So you are saying that a culture that discriminates against LGBT isn't that important because at least they aren't being systematically slaughtered? Because Christianity in the states has quite a rabid anti-gay culture, and the fact that gay marriage had been struck down repeatedly should give you an idea of how many people are actually against gay rights. Hell, the fact that Don't Ask, Don't Tell was actually progressive in the 90s is a hallmark of how slow the US has been to catch up. Edited August 16, 2016 by Lord Raven

[Tryhard]

Having that said, not only was that guy not a refugee, not only did he have nothing to do with the refugees you talk about, and not only was he not a devout Muslim, but can you link to any western Muslims that even vindicated him?

Ironically, one such extremist Christian pastor did so:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/06/14/pastor-refuses-to-mourn-orlando-victims-the-tragedy-is-that-more-of-them-didnt-die/