General US Politics

[-Cynthia-]

Eh, I dunno about that. Tim Kaine is alright as far as I can tell, but everything I've heard about Pence leads me to believe that he might actually be worse than Trump.

He did want to spend taxpayer dollars on gay conversion therapy http://www.politifact.com/california/statements/2016/jul/28/gavin-newsom/true-mike-pence-advocated-conversion-therapy/

Edited November 7, 2016 by -Cynthia-

[eclipse]

Look, I'm all for Pence being Christian, but I think that government needs to be equally indifferent to all religions. Spending taxpayer dollars for something like that is. . .inexcusable IMO.

[Rezzy]

Eh, I dunno about that. Tim Kaine is alright as far as I can tell, but everything I've heard about Pence leads me to believe that he might actually be worse than Trump.

He did want to spend taxpayer dollars on gay conversion therapy http://www.politifact.com/california/statements/2016/jul/28/gavin-newsom/true-mike-pence-advocated-conversion-therapy/

I'm never going to agree with that stance, but he's still better than the rest, and he'd never be able to implement that policy with today's congress, which is far different than 16 years ago.

[-Cynthia-]

I'm never going to agree with that stance, but he's still better than the rest, and he'd never be able to implement that policy with today's congress, which is far different than 16 years ago.

I could see it with a majority Republican Congress.Not a view they all personally hold, but if they want to attempt to appeal to the base for re-election...I wouldn't say never. The Tea Party has definitely moved Republicans to the right in recent years.

[Rezzy]

I could see it with a majority Republican Congress.Not a view they all personally hold, but if they want to attempt to appeal to the base for re-election...I wouldn't say never. The Tea Party has definitely moved Republicans to the right in recent years.

I think the LGBT movement has been making enough inroads to prevent anything like that. There's also the Log Cabin Republicans, which have been getting an ever more increasing foothold in the party.

[Lord Raven]

That's 21/538 congressman, by the way, which isn't really that significant. I highly doubt Pence will really get anything done anti-LGBT, but the fact of the matter is that this is a guy whose viewpoint is inherently discriminatory against homosexuals. He is also of the religious right variety (as opposed to someone like Tim Kaine, who is religious but socially liberal). Yes, LGBT has made strides, but let's not pretend that a party who had a number of people running in the primaries who wanted to repeal gay marriage and keep it a states issue it is definitely not out of the question.

FYI - there are 302 republicans in congress as of my posting, so 281 congressman is still a majority. But let's not pretend that restricting gay rights is the only issue here with a Pence presidency and a republican majority, because the ACA is also at risk.

[Rezzy]

That's 21/538 congressman, by the way, which isn't really that significant. I highly doubt Pence will really get anything done anti-LGBT, but the fact of the matter is that this is a guy whose viewpoint is inherently discriminatory against homosexuals. He is also of the religious right variety (as opposed to someone like Tim Kaine, who is religious but socially liberal). Yes, LGBT has made strides, but let's not pretend that a party who had a number of people running in the primaries who wanted to repeal gay marriage and keep it a states issue it is definitely not out of the question.

FYI - there are 302 republicans in congress as of my posting, so 281 congressman is still a majority. But let's not pretend that restricting gay rights is the only issue here with a Pence presidency and a republican majority, because the ACA is also at risk.

Yeah, the one of the things that bugs me about the Republicans. I don't think they'll have a big enough majority to pass anything that extreme going forward. Gay marriage is pretty much a moot point, now, since the Supreme Court struck that down. My original point was that I thought Pence would be better than Trump, not that Pence was my first choice, or even towards the top for my, just that if I could pick I would rather see Pence/Kaine in the White House over Trump/Clinton. I'm not voting for either major party.

Sadly, there's no candidates who I agree with everything on. Part of the reason I hope there's deadlock after the election is so they can't do anything to make stuff worse.

[Lord Raven]

What about ACA? Pence also doesn't believe in things like Global Warming and evolution, and given he was a governor he has some experience. Pence would actively be worse than Trump, because Trump just doesn't care, and him and his VP don't see eye-to-eye on anything either.

[Phoenix Wright]

However the presidency goes, I hope the Senate goes the other way. I don't want the next president to be able to do whatever the want and to have solid opposition. But who knows, if Trump is elected, maybe he'll end up like John Tyler and be a president without a party.

why would you want 4 more years of nothing happening

[Water Mage]

Hmmm. . .what are the odds that the president is impeached within hours of inauguration? IMO that would be the best outcome, but at the same time, I think it's not a good thing to wish on anyone!

I don't know how impeachments go in the US, but back in Brazil, our president was recently impeached, but the whole thing took months to actually come to pass, so impeachment might not be a quick solution.

why would you want 4 more years of nothing happening

Isn't it better than bad things happening?

[euklyd]

I think I would rather this whole joke of a process be well and truly over after the inauguration. Impeachment would drag things on for months and accomplish literally nothing of substance, all for the sake of spiting the victor.

And that's assuming that the impeached party would actually get removed from office.

[Water Mage]

I think I would rather this whole joke of a process be well and truly over after the inauguration. Impeachment would drag things on for months and accomplish literally nothing of substance, all for the sake of spiting the victor.

And that's assuming that the impeached party would actually get removed from office.

Sad thing is, I can imagine both Hillary and Trump resorting to impeachment if they lose.

By the way, since the voting is tomorrow, when do results will be announced?

[Nobody]

Yeah, the one of the things that bugs me about the Republicans. I don't think they'll have a big enough majority to pass anything that extreme going forward. Gay marriage is pretty much a moot point, now, since the Supreme Court struck that down. My original point was that I thought Pence would be better than Trump, not that Pence was my first choice, or even towards the top for my, just that if I could pick I would rather see Pence/Kaine in the White House over Trump/Clinton. I'm not voting for either major party.

Sadly, there's no candidates who I agree with everything on. Part of the reason I hope there's deadlock after the election is so they can't do anything to make stuff worse.

The president nominates the supreme court. The next president will nominate many supreme court members. With more conservatives in the supreme court, gay marriage could be repelled.

There are actually plenty of people voting democratic just for the supreme court nominations. IMO, if you're socially liberal but think hillary and trump are equally bad, it makes sense to vote for hillary just for the liberal supreme court.

why would you want 4 more years of nothing happening

because she's a libertarian

just kidding rezzy

I don't know how impeachments go in the US, but back in Brazil, our president was recently impeached, but the whole thing took months to actually come to pass, so impeachment might not be a quick solution.

Isn't it better than bad things happening?

Things happen slowly here in brazil though. It'd make more sense to compare to how long bill clinton's impeachment took (which i didn't bother to check) Edited November 7, 2016 by Nooooooooooooooooooooobody

[euklyd]

Sad thing is, I can imagine both Hillary and Trump resorting to impeachment if they lose.

The former, at least, has pledged to stand by the results of the election. And even if Trump were impeached, that would only result in Pence becoming President; Clinton would not have her cause advanced one bit.

I'm not seeing it.

EDIT: To be clear, all of that except for the first sentence applies to Trump as well. The main difference being that Trump has proven to be far more vindictive over the course of this campaign (in rhetoric, at the very least).

Edited November 7, 2016 by Euklyd

[Water Mage]

Things happen slowly here in brazil though. It'd make more sense to compare to how long bill clinton's impeachment took (which i didn't bother to check)

I know that law here in Brazil is slow, but according to my law teachers, political law, especially when involving the president, takes a long time to come to a decision, the impeachment actually wentt faster than they thought.

The former, at least, has pledged to stand by the results of the election. And even if Trump were impeached, that would only result in Pence becoming President; Clinton would not have her cause advanced one bit.

I'm not seeing it.

EDIT: To be clear, all of that except for the first sentence applies to Trump as well. The main difference being that Trump has proven to be far more vindictive over the course of this campaign (in rhetoric, at the very least).

To be honest, I can't see Hillary trying to get Trump impeached as well.

When I talking about the loser going trying to impeach the other, I mostly meant Trump. Mostly because I remember him trying to prove that Obama wasn't a natural-born american. I can see him trying something similar with Hillary. He seems

And I get the feeling that whoever wins this election will wnd up losing more in the long run. Especially if the victor is Trump. If anything happens, people are gonna tear him up mercilessly.

And quite frankly, whenever I see him making speeches, I get the feeling he has no idea what he's getting into. He seems very...naive.

Edited November 7, 2016 by Water Mage

[CyborgZeta]

I'm really, really hoping it's a democrat win because the idea of a Trump/Pence win honestly scares the hell out of me and I don't want to have to flee the country

I wish I could flee the country.

But alas, moving to another country is hard. So I'm stuck here in the US, for better or worse.

[Res]

And quite frankly, whenever I see him making speeches, I get the feeling he has no idea what he's getting into. He seems very...naive.

I don't know if naive is the right word, but I do agree that he displays a lot of ignorance. I finally read the interview with his ghostwriter and the idea that this is 100% publicity/notoriety for Trump makes a lot of sense.

[Water Mage]

I don't know if naive is the right word, but I do agree that he displays a lot of ignorance. I finally read the interview with his ghostwriter and the idea that this is 100% publicity/notoriety for Trump makes a lot of sense.

To be honest, when I said naive, I meant as that he has no idea what being a president is all about.

He seems to think that if he wins, the moment he enters the white house, he believes he will be allowed to do anything he plans, with no opposing him.

President is a powerful position to be sure, but it's not as powerful as Trump thinks. I'm pretty sure he will be sorely disappointed if he becomes president.

[Rezzy]

Well, I voted today. May God have mercy on my soul.

What about ACA? Pence also doesn't believe in things like Global Warming and evolution, and given he was a governor he has some experience. Pence would actively be worse than Trump, because Trump just doesn't care, and him and his VP don't see eye-to-eye on anything either.

The ACA as it exists now needs a massive overhaul. Obamacare insurance is often worse than no insurance at all, since many docs I know will reject Obamacare patients outright, but will often work with indigent patients and give free service or work with them for a payment plan.

why would you want 4 more years of nothing happening

Bad legislation is worse than no legislation. If a president has no opposition, the likelihood of bad legislation increases.

Isn't it better than bad things happening?

Pretty much

Sad thing is, I can imagine both Hillary and Trump resorting to impeachment if they lose.

A single person cannot impeach a president. Whether Trump or Clinton loses, they will not be able to single-handedly impeach the other. It is up to the House of Representatives to impeach and the Senate to remove them from office.

The president nominates the supreme court. The next president will nominate many supreme court members. With more conservatives in the supreme court, gay marriage could be repelled.
There are actually plenty of people voting democratic just for the supreme court nominations. IMO, if you're socially liberal but think hillary and trump are equally bad, it makes sense to vote for hillary just for the liberal supreme court.

Gay Marriage has already been heard by the Supreme Court, and they are very hesitant to go against precedent.

because she's a libertarian
just kidding rezzy Things happen slowly here in brazil though. It'd make more sense to compare to how long bill clinton's impeachment took (which i didn't bother to check)

Yeah, I'm a Libertarian, but it's more I think the way I think and that makes the Libertarian label fit me, rather than I'm a Libertarian, so I think this way.

Bill Clinton's impeachment in 1998 was pretty stupid. Slick Willy's slick willy didn't really affect his job as president. Hillary Clinton on the other hand has shown years of corruption and getting millions of dollars in donations from foreign powers is troubling. If Bill was running again today, he's probably just as corrupt, but that's what 16 years will do to you.

[Phoenix Wright]

Bad legislation is worse than no legislation. If a president has no opposition, the likelihood of bad legislation increases.

i'm not confident clinton would necessarily bring bad legislation with her. some of her ideas are toxic, but on paper if most of what she wanted to get done got done, that would be a good thing.

Edited November 7, 2016 by Phoenix Wright

[Yojinbo]

At this point I'm honestly just scared of Hillary becoming president. I don't even know if I'll be safe in Europe anymore.

[Lord Raven]

Obamacare insurance is often worse than no insurance at all, since many docs I know will reject Obamacare patients outright, but will often work with indigent patients and give free service or work with them for a payment plan.

Many docs you know, but those aren't the only doctors in the US. Can you provide a source that details how this affects other doctors?

At any rate - I doubt Pence will do anything about it (if not outright repeal it) and Trump wants to repeal it and institute a new one that effectively screws over the poor and benefits the rich.

Why do your doctor friends reject people who have insurance under the ACA, but are willing to do free services to poor people? Honestly, the latter doesn't even happen often in this country, and I've heard stories of doctors promising that but not following up on it and instead slapping some 50k in medical bills on some poor dude without insurance.

[Rezzy]

Many docs you know, but those aren't the only doctors in the US. Can you provide a source that details how this affects other doctors?

At any rate - I doubt Pence will do anything about it (if not outright repeal it) and Trump wants to repeal it and institute a new one that effectively screws over the poor and benefits the rich.

Why do your doctor friends reject people who have insurance under the ACA, but are willing to do free services to poor people? Honestly, the latter doesn't even happen often in this country, and I've heard stories of doctors promising that but not following up on it and instead slapping some 50k in medical bills on some poor dude without insurance.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by the first statement. There are doctors that take Obamacare, but the dissatisfaction with the system is there and only getting worse. Dealing with insurance in general is a massive headache. You spend more time on paperwork than actual patient care. This has been coupled with the crazy new ICD-10.

Rejecting certain insurances, not necessarily just Obamacare, is that many insurances are more trouble than they are worth. Insurances are always looking for ways to delay or deny payments. If a doctor could theoretically get $100 for a visit or procedure through insurance, but it takes forever and gets denied half the time, the doctor could instead just work out a plan with a patient to get $50. A patient without insurance is often more willing to come up with a plan, but patients with bad insurance still want to go through their insurance, leading to limiting their medical care options.

[Lord Raven]

I mean the point is that there is expanded Medicaid and employers have to oversee insurance. The issue is that insurance companies blow.

The thing is that you're talking about working out a 50 dollar plan or whatever - but these are not the costs of a plan. They are significantly higher and insurance companies are annoying but the ACA has done what it has set out to do, which is using scotch tape to hold together a broken system.

The thing about a Trump presidency is that they'll use piss and vinegar to hold together a shitty system and a Pence presidency will see it in shambles and insist it's fine.

Insurance exists to theoretically reduce costs for the insured and you cannot possibly fault people for wanting to go to their insurance because the procedure in question costs way too much for them.

[Lord Raven]

Edit: there needs to be a better ipb app

Edited November 7, 2016 by Lord Raven