General US Politics

[Just call me AL]

Does she really?

She explicitly mentioned her desire to do so when she accepted the Democratic nomination. As for citation, what can do better than Hillary's own words?

Said mention starts about a half-hour in. (Well, okay. It's more 40 minutes in. But details details.)

Man, do I love me some PBS news sometimes.

I didn't realize she was campaigning to cut taxes for the rich. Source?

In what world does campaigning to make the rich pay MORE taxes equate to campaigning to make the rich pay LESS taxes? Edited November 4, 2016 by Just call me AL

[Lord Raven]

He was saying that a flat tax was the only fair tax plan (hence a tax cut), despite this argument happening many pages ago when he didn't want to reply.

[Phoenix Wright]

and that was to me also. bal, why post if you're not gonna respond? you posted the rules yourself; no soapbox. i think you've yet to ever respond, actually...

[Yojinbo]

She explicitly mentioned her desire to do so when she accepted the Democratic nomination. As for citation, what can do better than Hillary's own words?

That doesn't make it in any way believable.

[Moblin Major General]

bal may be the mod for this section, that doesn't mean he is nearly as involved in these types of discussions as eclipse is.

Also, is it bad that I would love to hear Integrity's input in some of these threads?

[Just call me AL]

That doesn't make it in any way believable.

It's certainly more believable than anything that comes out of Frump's mouth.

[Phoenix Wright]

bal may be the mod for this section, that doesn't mean he is nearly as involved in these types of discussions as eclipse is.

um, so?

[Time the Crestfallen]

Show me and I'll be happy to call out what I find abhorrent. No hypocrisy needed.

Remember, every example needs to be backed by the idea of violence or silencing opposition from the right.

Silencing opposition:

Trump had a media blacklist that excluded news outlets that were critical of him from official campaign events that only recently ended.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/on-media/2016/09/trump-campaign-ends-media-blacklist-227827

How about the whole mess with Trump poll watchers?

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/landing/volunteer-to-be-a-trump-election-observer

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/09/trump-poll-watchers-discrimination

Here's a website dedicated to collecting news stories of right-wing groups/individuals. The link goes to censorship specifically.

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/topics/censorship/

Here's a feminist writer who quit social media as a result of rape threats being made against her 5-year-old daughter

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/columnist-quits-social-media-threats-rape-5-year-old-article-1.2728374

Another person attacked by the alt-right, including having his daughter's face photoshopped into a gas chamber

http://www.vox.com/conversations/2016/10/27/13428612/donald-trump-david-french-alt-right-trolls-republican-party

Anita Sarkeesian (who's opinions I don't necessarily agree with fyi) had to cancel a talk at Utah State University due to shooting threats

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/oct/15/anita-sarkeesian-feminist-games-critic-cancels-talk

The women accusing Trump of child sexual abuse cancelled her press conference due to death threats

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a50256/trump-child-rape-accuser-cancels-press-conference/

Violence:

Anders Behring Breivik: Far-Right terrorist who perpetrated the worst attack on Norway since WWII and the deadliest terror attack in Western Europe until the Paris bombings, killing 77 people (33 of whom were aged 17 or younger) and injuring a total of at least 319.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks#Attack

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik

As a matter of fact, up until last year far-right and homegrown extremists were responsible for more deaths than Islamic terrorists.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us-challenges-perceptions-of-top-terror-threat.html?_r=0

http://www.newamerica.org/international-security/in-the-news/americas-biggest-terror-threat-is-from-the-far-right/

Right-wing long wolves kill more than Islamic terrorist lone wolves

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/22/rightwing-lone-wolves-islamist-extremists-report-thinktank-rusi

Planned Parenthood shooting in Colorado

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_Springs_Planned_Parenthood_shooting

Here's someone who fire-bombed a Mosque and a Planned Parenthood clinic

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2016/10/19/prison-man-who-fire-bombed-mosque-planned-parenthood-clinic

Actually, just look at the wikipedia page for anti-abortion violence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence

Here's a Mosque in Perth that got attacked this year

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-29/firebombing-ant-islam-graffiti-attack-at-thornlie-mosque-school/7552394

You could probably find similar links to mine. Hell, you could probably debunk some of mine just as easily as I and others would be able to debunk some of yours. Quite frankly, we could spend an entire month swapping and debunking links but that's not the point. The point is that you can't paint the right as pure and innocent victims of the mean, horrible 'regressive left' when they are guilty of the exact same behaviour. There's a debate to be had over which side is 'worse' (or rather, which side has the better ability to perpetrate this sort of thing), but the right is just as guilty (if not more so) of this kind of behaviour.

[ping]

Here's another one for the 'violence' list.

It might be worth noting that the police didn't even consider a xenophobic background for those murders for a long time - they pretty much assumed that the murderers were part of the victim's social circle and/or that the victims might have been part of organized crime and that the murders were related to that.

[Res]

Cracked did another good article - this one on sexual consent, which seems relevant to some of the recent discussion. The first point (aka point number 7) seemed especially pertinent.

[Yula]

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u-s-hackers-ready-hit-back-if-russia-disrupts-election-n677936?cid=sm_tw

So apparently that came about, any thoughts on this, because I think it's bullshit designed to drum up domestic support for hacking Russia.

[Lord Raven]

You know that the NSA has been trying to hack every single government forever right? Hardly news.

[Time the Crestfallen]

On a more humorous note:

[Nobody]

So, how do you guys think the electoral map is going to look like?

I'm thinking of this:

http://www.270towin.com/maps/dRjdX

with Nevada, Florida and NH going either way.

[UNLEASH IT]

So, how do you guys think the electoral map is going to look like?

I'm thinking of this:

http://www.270towin.com/maps/dRjdX

with Nevada, Florida and NH going either way.

Is it really going to be that close? It hasn't been that close since 2004.

[The DanMan]

Is it really going to be that close? It hasn't been that close since 2004.

Polls are showing the candidates to be within one percent of eachother.

Guess that's what happens when you have a bigot and a criminal running- a lot of people don't want to vote for either, and most of those who do are moreso voting against the other candidate and just going for the lesser of two evils.

[Crysta]

My prediction is 297 versus 241, with Clinton getting the win.

I put Florida and New Hampshire in Clinton's column, Nevada in Trump's.

[Eldritch Abomination]

I'm really, really hoping it's a democrat win because the idea of a Trump/Pence win honestly scares the hell out of me and I don't want to have to flee the country

[UNLEASH IT]

I'm really, really hoping it's a democrat win because the idea of a Trump/Pence win honestly scares the hell out of me and I don't want to have to flee the country

Panic over a Trump win is one of the major things feeding his supporters at the moment.

[XeKr]

That's a shame because the post before this was not only very good but it also showed why people get exasperated with arguing with Life Admiral; because he, like his lord and savior Donald J Trump, is alpha and does not let simple things known as facts get in the way of his opinions.

Probably only worth if someone new comes in with relevant commentary.

So, how do you guys think the electoral map is going to look like?

I'm thinking of this:

http://www.270towin.com/maps/dRjdX

with Nevada, Florida and NH going either way.

http://www.270towin.com/maps/gBeZO

Basically trust polls for the most part + Nevada/Florida bluer because of language barrier in polling. Would lean NC and NH and ME2 blue and Ohio red if forcing it. So 323-215 +/- some faithless electors if so.

If the polls are really off there’s no solid way to rationalize a particular map. Some people will get it right using various justifications (probably flipping some combo of swing and Rust Belt states. There’s not that many possibilities in total) but eh.

In Senate (of competitive races that matter) I think Ducksworth, Bennet are solid, Feingold, McGinty, Cortez leaning. Hassan, Ross, Kander, Bayh maybe. If Clinton wins, the polls in general are probably good so I like the chances of at least 50+Kaine.

House is a no, though Dems probably favored for the popular vote. Gerrymandering so great.

I suppose Governors also matter but it’s more wacky there. I only know enough to care about Cooper > McCrory tbh.

Polls are showing the candidates to be within one percent of eachother.

Guess that's what happens when you have a bigot and a criminal running- a lot of people don't want to vote for either, and most of those who do are moreso voting against the other candidate and just going for the lesser of two evils.

Clinton has not been indicted (much less convicted) with anything despite Rs attacking her for 20+ years (we had this discussion already). Trump has this stuff, a lot of which was before he ran, so can’t really use the political motivation/partisan smear excuse. Trump is also richer so I dunno about the “rich can get away with it” logic sometimes used for why Clinton isn’t in prison already (and again, not even indicted).

More people seem to be voting affirmatively for Clinton, and comparable to past presidential years. http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/clinton-voters-arent-just-voting-against-trump/ .

Lesser-of-two-evils is more a guilt/shame argument against not voting (it’s your civic duty) or voting for 3rd party (wasted vote that’s helping the worse option win).

EMAILS I know, I know. (hmm…)

I'm really, really hoping it's a democrat win because the idea of a Trump/Pence win honestly scares the hell out of me and I don't want to have to flee the country

Regardless of who wins, what has been exposed by this election is not going away. Trump is the symptom of many things that has been in motion for years, and will continue beyond the election. Additionally, the war on facts, critical thinking, and science is becoming part of the culture war. That, in my mind, is the most problematic for the future. (and while it's important to recognize that the left certainly isn't immune, they seem less susceptible to scams by Macedonian teenagers. As crazy as it sounds).

The optimistic view is that the Dem coalition of minorities and younger voters is growing. Holding it together is another story and another battle.

Edited November 6, 2016 by XeKr

[The DanMan]

Clinton has not been indicted (much less convicted) with anything despite Rs attacking her for 20+ years (we had this discussion already). Trump has this stuff, a lot of which was before he ran, so can’t really use the political motivation/partisan smear excuse. Trump is also richer so I dunno about the “rich can get away with it” logic sometimes used for why Clinton isn’t in prison already (and again, not even indicted).

More people seem to be voting affirmatively for Clinton, and comparable to past presidential years. http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/clinton-voters-arent-just-voting-against-trump/ .

Lesser-of-two-evils is more a guilt/shame argument against not voting (it’s your civic duty) or voting for 3rd party (wasted vote that’s helping the worse option win).

EMAILS I know, I know. (hmm…)

There were emails sent by her that contained confidential information, we know that much. No matter who you are, that's breaking the law. I have no idea why she hasn't been indicted, but the fact that she hasn't is stupid. And then there's the Clinton Foundation donation cases and other instances of corruption... .

Neither of Trump or Hillary should even be running- they're worst-case scenario candidates come to life. Few people I've talked to IRL are a fan of "their" candidate and agree with many of the criticisms lobbied at them- they just hate the other candidate more.

Edited November 6, 2016 by The DanMan

[Rezzy]

There were emails sent by her that contained confidential information, we know that much. No matter who you are, that's breaking the law. I have no idea why she hasn't been indicted, but the fact that she hasn't is stupid. And then there's the Clinton Foundation donation cases and other instances of corruption... .

Neither of Trump or Hillary should even be running- they're worst-case scenario candidates come to life. Few people I've talked to IRL are not a fan of "their" candidate and agree with many of the criticisms lobbied at them- they just hate the other candidate more.

This election has been liking two teams you really hate playing in the Superbowl, with the knowledge that one has to win.

[eclipse]

Hmmm. . .what are the odds that the president is impeached within hours of inauguration? IMO that would be the best outcome, but at the same time, I think it's not a good thing to wish on anyone!

[Rezzy]

Hmmm. . .what are the odds that the president is impeached within hours of inauguration? IMO that would be the best outcome, but at the same time, I think it's not a good thing to wish on anyone!

I think that would be great. I'd take either of the vice-presidential candidates over the top of the tickets. If pretty much any other candidates were running, they'd be running away with the race, but we got this.

On the Democrat side, we had the party pretty much conspiring to give Hillary the nomination before the race even started. Sanders got royally screwed over. I really wish Biden had run. Even without the indictment, seeing Hillary's maid printing off confidential emails and foreign heads of state donating to her just smacks of incompetence and corruption.

On the Republican side, we had such a wide array of candidates and Trump was so different from the rest that no candidate was able to get enough votes to overcome Trumps plurality that he just kept building his lead as the rest dropped out. If there had only been 3-4 serious candidates, it may have turned out differently. Trump, I don't know, sexual accusations aside, I don't know what he'll do if elected. He has no real government track record to judge by. I don't really think he's as good a businessman as he thinks, since he's declared bankruptcy a dozen times and used loopholes to gain his wealth. Loopholes generally only work for the well connected and isn't something you can build an economic policy on.

However the presidency goes, I hope the Senate goes the other way. I don't want the next president to be able to do whatever the want and to have solid opposition. But who knows, if Trump is elected, maybe he'll end up like John Tyler and be a president without a party.

Is it really going to be that close? It hasn't been that close since 2004.

You make it sound like 2004 was that long ago. I voted in that election.

[Time the Crestfallen]

I think that would be great. I'd take either of the vice-presidential candidates over the top of the tickets. If pretty much any other candidates were running, they'd be running away with the race, but we got this.

Eh, I dunno about that. Tim Kaine is alright as far as I can tell, but everything I've heard about Pence leads me to believe that he might actually be worse than Trump.

Edited November 7, 2016 by The Blind Idiot God