General US Politics

[eclipse]

His strategy is probably to become much more centrist/less theatrical after the primary, and bank on the fact that none of his base is going to vote for the opposing candidate anyways. This is essentially what every single candidate on either side does after winning the primary; the US electoral system encourages it. I'm hoping that he becomes alienating enough in the primary that nobody falls for the switch in the general election.

Trump is saying "I want the guys who think that the turn of the twentieth century was the best thing ever", which is the demographic that I don't care for. Shit like racism/sexism/xenophobia should've gone out of the window a hell of a long time ago.

If that's Trump's rhetoric, I have no idea what the hell Clinton is trying to do.

My post wasn't an attack at trump supports nor was meant to change their opinions. It was aimed at people who support Sanders yet think Hillary and Trump are "the same". Abortion is controversial, but most Bernie supporters support it. I think virtually all Bernie supporters would rather have a liberal judge at the supreme court rather than a conservative -or as you claim moderate- one. Virtually all Bernie Sanders supporters want a higher minimal wage. Most Bernie Sanders supporters want America to be closer to Scandinavia and also to help underdeveloped countries. Most Bernie Sanders supporters want immigration laws to be more lenient. My post wasn't aimed at you, who seem to think a Trump presidency could be acceptable, but rather at Bernie supporters who think Hillary is as bad as they think Trump is, pointing out that Hillary is way closer to Sanders than she is to Trump.

I happen to support none of them, and I don't think that Trump/Clinton are the same. Trump's tactic was to go after a demographic whose views regarding the rest of the world are horrifying, and I don't trust Clinton to actually do what she says. As long as there's some weird-ass fear of socialism, and it's tied to Sanders, he's not going to get much done.

I don't agree with a higher minimum wage. I mean, maybe going from $7.50 to maybe $8.50 would be okay. But nothing more than that. If people want to make more money, GET A BETTER JOB. Get off your butt, get educated/experience and get a good job. I hate that a fast food worker in New York can make the same money as a surgeon now. That's just not fair. Surgeons go to a lot of school and get a lot of skill to earn the money they make. What do these burger flippers do to deserve $15 an hour?

Mind answering the following:

1. What do you do for a living?

2. If you are still in school, what is your strategy to get a job with a wage you're comfortable at?

[Alertcircuit]

I hate that a fast food worker in New York can make the same money as a surgeon now. That's just not fair. Surgeons go to a lot of school and get a lot of skill to earn the money they make. What do these burger flippers do to deserve $15 an hour?

As far as I'm aware a fast food worker in New York doesn't make $200k-$500k yearly.

[-Cynthia-]

Part of the issue with the minimum wage is that there are going to be significant numbers of families depending on money to make a living- in economic terms they can't all get "better" jobs or else no one is working the minimum wage jobs. High school/college students can't cover all the minimum wage jobs, particularly because classes limit their availability significantly.

Also yeah I dunno what kind of surgeon makes $15 an hour, that's like 30k a year which is not very much.

Edited March 7, 2016 by -Cynthia-

[Anacybele]

As far as I'm aware a fast food worker in New York doesn't make $200k-$500k yearly.

...Actually, now that I think about it, it wasn't a surgeon, it was a emergency medical technician or something like that. It's been awhile since I last saw the post about it. Either way, it was a lady who went to school for awhile and acquired training and skills needed for her job. She said the burger flippers make the same money as she does. She had a different view on it, which I respect and understand, but I still can't agree with it.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Anacybele

[CyborgZeta]

Meanwhile, Trump suggests a border wall which is certainly not moral, and for this he'd be opposed.

What's wrong with a border wall? Israel has a border wall, and Mexico has a border wall on their border with Guatemala; does wonders for them.

A nation without borders is not a nation. I believe it's critically important we secure our southern border to control the flow of illegal immigration, drug trafficking, and human trafficking.

Just look at how non-existent the border is in some places:

Sanctuary cities need to be de-funded for defying the ICE. How on Earth is it acceptable for illegal immigrants to be able to get away with this stuff?

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/07/the-problem-with-downplaying-immigrant-crime/399905/

http://www.ketv.com/news/community-activist-questions-why-alleged-drunken-driver-wasnt-under-immigration-hold/38026564

http://www.scribd.com/doc/301317795/Rubio-RNC-Letter-TRP-Families

Yes, some illegal immigrants are genuinely poor people looking for work, a better life, whatever. There can be a way for these people to come here legally for work, but I do not think we should continue to allow people to cross unchecked. Something needs to be done, because this stuff is unacceptable. I do not believe giving amnesty to illegals already here will solve the problem; it will only will it encourage more to come, as it did with Reagan and Dubya. I also consider it a slap in the face to anyone who takes the long process of immigrating legally. These people will continue to come as long their countries remain downtrodden, and it's not sustainable.

I will again cite this video about immigration:

I don't expect anyone else here to agree with me, but I feel very strongly about this issue.

[Lord Raven]

...Actually, now that I think about it, it wasn't a surgeon, it was a emergency medical technician or something like that. It's been awhile since I last saw the post about it. Either way, it was a lady who went to school for awhile and acquired training and skills needed for her job. She said the burger flippers make the same money as she does. She had a different view on it, which I respect and understand, but I still can't agree with it.

I found the wage of a McDonald's worker in New York - it's 8.71 an hour at most. 8.71 * 40 * 52 = around 17-18k (17k for a lower paying job at McD's), and I assumed things like people being paid full-time for 52 weeks.

The salary of an EMT specialist is at least 29k in New York.

Please research the figures before taking people's word at face value.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Lord Raven

[dondon151]

What's wrong with a border wall?

how the fuck are you going to secure 2000 miles of border wall lmao

[CyborgZeta]

how the fuck are you going to secure 2000 miles of border wall lmao

Border Portal would continue to patrol behind the wall to watch for any possible activity, such as tunneling. Watch towers on, or behind the wall could also be implemented.

Considering what Border Patrol already does, a wall would just make their job easier.

I take it you'd rather leave the border as it is, and not even bother to try?

Edited March 7, 2016 by CyborgZeta

[tuvarkz]

how the fuck are you going to secure 2000 miles of border wall lmao

Just like the Romans did, but with better weapons and a better communication system.

[blah the Prussian]

Just like the Romans did, but with better weapons and a better communication system.

Don't compare the two situations. TBH the border wall is defendable, but the thing with Hadrian's Wall was that Roman territory extended quite far into Caledonia, and scouts at that border would run back and tell the legions where the track would fall. The wall was never 100% manned at any given time.

[Phoenix Wright]

Border Portal would continue to patrol behind the wall to watch for any possible activity, such as tunneling. Watch towers on, or behind the wall could also be implemented.

Considering what Border Patrol already does, a wall would just make their job easier.

I take it you'd rather leave the border as it is, and not even bother to try?

even doing this for tens of square miles would be a significant challenge. the issue of immigration is simply not pressing enough to even warrant such an action.

A candidate can only be objectively better according to specific criteria. What it means to be the POTUS is a multifaceted state of affairs, so it's concievable that people believe different candidates are better for the Presidency for entirely different reasons. If there is a mismatch in opinion, it is because your criteria do not match (or likely, your criteria are more rigorous than other people's).

I do believe in some objective truths mind, but what I believe to be objectively true isn't going to sway someone else just because I believe it. Declaring "it's objectively true that Clinton and Cruz are crummy candidates yet people are voting for them, thus those voters must not be capable of interpreting reality" (or at least, implying that) seems a bit impetuous to say the least.

EDIT: I should probably say, whilst being more politically aligned with Sanders than anyone else, I'd still vote Libertarian if I was a U.S citizen. I put that down to the fact that I highly doubt any of Sander's social policies will get through the houses, wheras I would trust Gary to VETO the shit out of regressive policies or corporate BS without threatening actual liberties since that's basically his claim to fame as a Governer.

sure. candidate by candidate, issue by issue, you'll find bernie is better than clinton, and kasich or rubio are better than trump. especially since trump's website gives no real information about anything whatsoever.

i wouldn't say i even implied people aren't "capable" of interpreting reality. i said it could be due to delusion, misinformation, or uneducated factors that play into it. for example, one could mistake clinton as a progressive, perhaps even more than bernie, and it's possible that the person simply didn't know that she isn't. that may be a poor reference, as apparently huff isn't liked around here, but the gist of it is her thoughts and feelings on any particular matter ebb and flow with the populace. she isn't a leader.

she's smart, though. there isn't much to say positively about trump. the dude talked about how big his dick was during a 'debate.' like what the fuck, man.

but the point is, i never said people that aren't me and disagree with me couldn't decipher the puzzle. i think 99% or so of people are capable, but haven't for whatever reason (there could be many reasons).

just like the Romans did, but with better weapons and a better communication system.

are you seriously suggesting we attempt to militarize border patrol lol

[Yojinbo]

Wasn't it Cruz who first suggested building a wall to the mexican border?

[Irysa]

sure. candidate by candidate, issue by issue, you'll find bernie is better than clinton, and kasich or rubio are better than trump. especially since trump's website gives no real information about anything whatsoever.

i wouldn't say i even implied people aren't "capable" of interpreting reality. i said it could be due to delusion, misinformation, or uneducated factors that play into it. for example, one could mistake clinton as a progressive, perhaps even more than bernie, and it's possible that the person simply didn't know that she isn't. that may be a poor reference, as apparently huff isn't liked around here, but the gist of it is her thoughts and feelings on any particular matter ebb and flow with the populace. she isn't a leader.

she's smart, though. there isn't much to say positively about trump. the dude talked about how big his dick was during a 'debate.' like what the fuck, man.

but the point is, i never said people that aren't me and disagree with me couldn't decipher the puzzle. i think 99% or so of people are capable, but haven't for whatever reason (there could be many reasons).

I apologise if I misinterpreted but think you misunderstood me as well. You say "bernie is better than clinton" but that's by your own criteria for what better even is. If someone doesn't share those criteria, then it doesn't fly. Rather than people failing to get at the truth, or "decipher the puzzle", they're just reaching a truth based on their own criteria. In many of those cases, it's just bias or irrational preferences guiding them though, but to define what an objectively better candidate is we'd have to define what makes a good leader, which judging from Trump's divisiveness, seems to be pretty non-universal.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Irysa

[Tryhard]

Just like the Romans did, but with better weapons and a better communication system.

Hadrian's Wall was never effective, and didn't stop Pictish raids. It just happens that the Picts and such weren't so interested in extending into Roman Britain, but even if they were the wall was ultimately ineffective in stopping them. The fact that it was manned until the end of the Roman Empire was actually quite wasteful of resources. Edited March 7, 2016 by Tryhard

[dondon151]

I take it you'd rather leave the border as it is, and not even bother to try?

because it ain't gonna work lmao

it'll cost a fuckton of money to build and maintain, probably won't be very effective at keeping illegal immigrants out in the first place, and stopping the illegals isn't a problem worth building a wall for

[Aestury]

I don't agree with a higher minimum wage. I mean, maybe going from $7.50 to maybe $8.50 would be okay. But nothing more than that. If people want to make more money, GET A BETTER JOB. Get off your butt, get educated/experience and get a good job. I hate that a fast food worker in New York can make the same money as a surgeon now. That's just not fair. Surgeons go to a lot of school and get a lot of skill to earn the money they make. What do these burger flippers do to deserve $15 an hour?

Its really not that easy. At all.

First you would have to try and support yourself which is very hard already with a salary of around $8-$10 an hour.

Now get that aside and you now have to get an education. Getting an associates would take maybe at a minimum of two years. Now if you're surviving off of minimum wage, so you'll most likely be doing multiple part-time jobs or one full time job. Since doing a Full-time job, or multiple part-time jobs alongside full-time college is extremely difficult you'll be seeing about 4 years of college to get an associates with the fact that you also have to support yourself. That is not even including the fact that you could also have a family , you or any family member could get sick at any time along the way. College dept will also weigh you down by the time you get an associates meaning if you don't get lucky and find a high paying job with the education you now have and the experience then you would basically be in a deeper hole. Unless you have a strong support base, starting off with minimum wage jobs with no education to high education jobs is extremely difficult.

I very much doubt it is as easy as getting off your 'lazy ass' and getting an education. Doing any of that requires extreme work, dedication, and grit.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Aestury

[tuvarkz]

because it ain't gonna work lmao

it'll cost a fuckton of money to build and maintain, probably won't be very effective at keeping illegal immigrants out in the first place, and stopping the illegals isn't a problem worth building a wall for

Not really.

((Middle size image, full link here: http://i.imgur.com/x2KqC3o.jpg ))

Edited March 9, 2016 by tuvarkz

[Phoenix Wright]

the reasons for a wall are pathetic.

[blah the Prussian]

Not really.

((Middle size image, full link here: http://i.imgur.com/x2KqC3o.jpg ))

Alright, time to OPVL the shit out of this.

Origin: This appears to be a campaign add for Donald Trump of some kind, or an info graphic that is very much pro Trump. No one is credited as being the creator, and the forumite who posted it, Tuvarkz, got it from Imgur. It could come from anywhere.

Purpose: The purpose of this info graphic is quite clearly to convince the viewer that building a wall on the Mexican border is the correct course of action.

Value: The info graphic shows the pro wall perspective, meaning that, for the first time, you don't have to go to Stormfront to get it! Thanks, info graphic!

Limitations: Many. Firstly, while sources are cited, they are not linked, making it much, much harder to investigate their credibility. Secondly, the info graphic uses the example of Israel, ignoring the fact that the Israeli frontier with the Palestinian Authority is not nearly as long as the American frontier with Mexico. Israel is also far more militarized than the USA. Finally, the purpose of the security fence is not to prevent illegal immigration, as the info graphic would have you believe, but rather to prevent Palestinian terrorism against Israel. When Mexicans start regularly blowing up Americans, then we can have a conversation about building a wall. The two situations are clearly not comparable. Finally, the info graphic consistently uses Donald Trump's own estimations for how much the wall would cost. Donald Trump, rather obviously, has a pretty damn clear bias in this matter. The use of a more unbiased estimate would be appreciated.

[tuvarkz]

Actually, I got it from /pol/, and uploaded to imgur after checking sources (And come on, equating everyone that wants the wall built to Stormfront is exaggerating the situation). Second, about the border length, the graphic clearly makes a "per mile" statement to compare the border length difference. Of course, while both don't have the same purpose, the reason the Israel wall is brought up is to compare effective pricing.

Also, linking the sources.

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/02/09/politics/donald-trump-border-wall-cost-8-billion/

http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/12/04/245-mile-1-6-billion-shekel-security-fence-between-israel-and-sinai-completed/

((As the source for this one is not I'm entirely keen on, for reference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Egypt_barrier -The wall is 245 miles long and cost 450 Million US dollars, matching the estimate of 1.8 Million per mile. Multiply that per the desired border length for Mexico/US and you got a similar estimate)

http://census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c2010.html

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/immigration-reform

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/169521#.VuANLfnhDIU ((In case of a front page redirect, look up New Data Shows 99% Drop in Illegal Entry ))

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/government-spending-per-minute-685-million/

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/06/world/americas/a-mexican-manual-for-illegal-migrants-upsets-some-in-us.html

CNBC (Which is left-aligned) places the estimate price at anywhere between 15-25 Billion. (If we assume 24 to make a simpler calculation, 24 is 3x8, which means it's 3x20=60 hours of government expenditure, or somewhat less))

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/09/this-is-what-trumps-border-wall-could-cost-us.html

CNN calls the 2 thousand mile border wall at 10.5 Billion (Before additional costs, although considering that Trump himself has stated that it would only be half that due to pre-existing natural borders)(EDIT: And should we take into account Trump's: "It just got 10 feet higher", we could rought it out at 15 Billion)

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/02/17/politics/donald-trump-mexico-wall/

Edited March 9, 2016 by tuvarkz

[blah the Prussian]

Actually, I got it from /pol/, and uploaded to imgur after checking sources (And come on, equating everyone that wants the wall built to Stormfront is exaggerating the situation). Second, about the border length, the graphic clearly makes a "per mile" statement to compare the border length difference. Of course, while both don't have the same purpose, the reason the Israel wall is brought up is to compare effective pricing.

Also, linking the sources.

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/02/09/politics/donald-trump-border-wall-cost-8-billion/

http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/12/04/245-mile-1-6-billion-shekel-security-fence-between-israel-and-sinai-completed/

((As the source for this one is not I'm entirely keen on, for reference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Egypt_barrier -The wall is 245 miles long and cost 450 Million US dollars, matching the estimate of 1.8 Million per mile. Multiply that per the desired border length for Mexico/US and you got a similar estimate)

http://census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c2010.html

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/immigration-reform

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/169521#.VuANLfnhDIU ((In case of a front page redirect, look up New Data Shows 99% Drop in Illegal Entry ))

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/government-spending-per-minute-685-million/

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/06/world/americas/a-mexican-manual-for-illegal-migrants-upsets-some-in-us.html

CNBC (Which is left-aligned) places the estimate price at anywhere between 15-25 Billion. (If we assume 24 to make a simpler calculation, 24 is 3x8, which means it's 3x20=60 hours of government expenditure, or somewhat less))

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/09/this-is-what-trumps-border-wall-could-cost-us.html

CNN calls the 2 thousand mile border wall at 10.5 Billion (Before additional costs, although considering that Trump himself has stated that it would only be half that due to pre-existing natural borders)(EDIT: And should we take into account Trump's: "It just got 10 feet higher", we could rought it out at 15 Billion)

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/02/17/politics/donald-trump-mexico-wall/

Question: is Mexico still issuing the pamphlet? I notice that the source was dated as being from 2005. A lot can happen in 10 years. Also, Israel's security fence isn't just fence, it also has checkpoints. I was more referring to the resources needed to control passage through the wall in the same way Israel controls passage in and out of Palestine. Obviously you need something like that if you don't want trade to be hit hard.

[tuvarkz]

Hm, tried Googling some stuff, and the most recent Mexican govenrment pamphlet regarding immigration only involves "What to do if you are stopped by the US authorities" and mostly amounts to 'Do not fight back, don't sign documents you don't understand, and speak if you have children depending on you.'

Related to checkpoints, Trump has often spoken about the presence of gates for people to come in, but legally. (Of course, he generally refers to it as a single wall with a single gate, but that's clearly something for simplicity of explanation).

Edited March 9, 2016 by tuvarkz

[Life]

Question.

Why not come to me about questions about walls? I am the Israeli.

Also, walls are effective but they should be a "last resort" option. We only put up a wall because we kept getting suicide bombed every other day (there was literally a point in the early 2000's where people were scared to get on public transport) and while suicide bombings have dropped, terror attacks still happen. Like the three stabbings that happened yesterday.

Actually, let's talk about that.

The only victim who died in the three stabbings yesterday in Israel was an American tourist. Not an immigrant. Not someone who came to join the IDF. No, an American tourist who went to Vanderbilt. And it's while VP Biden is here in Israel.

At what point do the Democrats say "well, since our civilians are getting stabbed by the side that we keep trying to root for, maybe it's time to re-evaluate our priorities"? I'm not asking for widespread permission to actually wipe out Gaza (even though nobody would miss them) but rather a fair evaluation of the situation which doesn't place one side on a pedestal over the other. And yeah, I am including my own country in that. We're not perfect and blind support for our retard of a PM is simply going to lead to more problems.

[dondon151]

wall also costs money to maintain. you have to pay for repairs, auxiliary facilities, and people to patrol the wall.

i don't buy the argument that government cost is already x therefore we can just add a bit more. suppose that we were to instantly eliminate all illegal immigrants and the costs that they entail (and also suppose that those cost figures are accurate, which they most certainly aren't). i'm not certain that the costs of building and maintaining a wall exceed those of not having to spend welfare money on illegal immigrants.

but building a wall will not instantly bring the illegal immigrant population down to zero, and it will not reduce the influx of new illegal immigrants to zero. the US not only has a 2000 mile land border with mexico but also thousands of miles of ocean border. furthermore, the children of illegal immigrants grow up to become contributors to the US economy.

Edited March 9, 2016 by dondon151

[blah the Prussian]

Question.

Why not come to me about questions about walls? I am the Israeli.

Also, walls are effective but they should be a "last resort" option. We only put up a wall because we kept getting suicide bombed every other day (there was literally a point in the early 2000's where people were scared to get on public transport) and while suicide bombings have dropped, terror attacks still happen. Like the three stabbings that happened yesterday.

Actually, let's talk about that.

The only victim who died in the three stabbings yesterday in Israel was an American tourist. Not an immigrant. Not someone who came to join the IDF. No, an American tourist who went to Vanderbilt. And it's while VP Biden is here in Israel.

At what point do the Democrats say "well, since our civilians are getting stabbed by the side that we keep trying to root for, maybe it's time to re-evaluate our priorities"? I'm not asking for widespread permission to actually wipe out Gaza (even though nobody would miss them) but rather a fair evaluation of the situation which doesn't place one side on a pedestal over the other. And yeah, I am including my own country in that. We're not perfect and blind support for our retard of a PM is simply going to lead to more problems.

Democrats don't necessarily support the Palestinians. What has a democratic administration done to support them? My support for them extends to "withdraw the wall to the Green Line" but that's mostly settlement related. The key difference here is that the US is only facing illegal immigration, while Israel is facing the threat of terrorism. It's an absurd comparison to make.