Casual Mode: Should there be penalties to losing units?

[eclipse]

i don't think that it's a great idea to change casual mode now, but transient penalties can be a casual mode feature on high difficulties.

I think I'd cry if I had to deal with stat reductions on Lunatic Casual - in which case I'd just reset anyway, thus taking the point out of the "casual" aspect. Unless it was some scrub unit I intentionally killed off, which is probably not what people use Casual for.

I'd like the simplified stat display to take a hike, forever. Part of assessing risk is knowing how much damage you'll do, and how much damage you'll take in return. I think this would be a more meaningful way of pushing people towards the older games.

Since when are subreddits accurate sources of evidence?

They're people asking for help, and they're dedicated enough to go to an external website and do research on older games.

Now think of all those who don't bother signing up with any sort of fan forum.

Even if I don't agree with dondon all the time, I think he's telling the truth about those who jumped from Casual to the older games.

I feel like a lot of Fire Emblem fans just look down on those who don't play on Classic/[Hardest Difficulty]. And that's pretty troubling, really. No matter what game I'm playing, I prefer whatever the original Dev team considered the standard difficulty, as I prefer my playthrough to be somewhat challenging yet not stressful. Casual Mode gives me a nice blend between those two, and it's what allowed me to actually get the hang of the series, I'll play games that only have Classic Mode, which I'm currently doing, but if the FE game provides me the option to play on Casual, I'll take it. It's less stressful for me. If that makes me a "Casual scrub gamer" (not your words, I know) then whatever. I have my way of playing through games, others have theirs.

There's exactly two instances where I will care about the mode you played on:

1. An opinion is needed about a specific mode.

2. I'm in a draft with you.

Otherwise, it's a game. As long as you don't put other people down because you played YOUR COMFORT SETTINGS Mode and they didn't, I'm fine with it.

[dondon151]

I think I'd cry if I had to deal with stat reductions on Lunatic Casual - in which case I'd just reset anyway, thus taking the point out of the "casual" aspect. Unless it was some scrub unit I intentionally killed off, which is probably not what people use Casual for.

let's be fair, playing lunatic mode at all takes the point out of the "casual" aspect.

[eclipse]

let's be fair, playing lunatic mode at all takes the point out of the "casual" aspect.

I like being fucked over by an enemy that dances itself, 'k?

It was an experiment, and all I got out of it was that battle saves should be A Thing in Classic (perhaps limited to 3/map or something). It's also great for testing out otherwise idiotic strategies.

[electricwolf]

They're people asking for help, and they're dedicated enough to go to an external website and do research on older games.

Now think of all those who don't bother signing up with any sort of fan forum.

Now I'm sure some would come in here and tell me I'm clutching at straws, but:

If you like something, how likely are you to go online and tell people about it? I really enjoy certain brands of chocolates but I have not sought out a forum to tell everyone about it. If you don't like something, you're going to want people to know. That kettle you bought on amazon that didn't work after a week? Screw those people, I'm writing them an awful review and giving them 1/5.

Anger or various milder forms of dissatisfaction are much more prevalent on the internet because anger is much more powerful at getting you to air your feelings than "Oh, this product I bough was as described, how nice."

What you're doing is pointing out a vocal, dissatisfied group with the assumption that there is a significant number who are dissatisfied but don't air their views. I'd wager that the situation is likely different, with a group of casual players either with no interest in going back to older games or who can make the transition.

Sampling based on what is on the internet is almost definitely unrepresentative of the entire group.

Edited August 27, 2015 by electricwolf

[Deviddo]

There's exactly two instances where I will care about the mode you played on:

1. An opinion is needed about a specific mode.

2. I'm in a draft with you.

Otherwise, it's a game. As long as you don't put other people down because you played YOUR COMFORT SETTINGS Mode and they didn't, I'm fine with it.

And that's an excellent viewpoint that I wish more people had.

[Lord Raven]

Now I'm sure some would come in here and tell me I'm clutching at straws, but:

If you like something, how likely are you to go online and tell people about it? I really enjoy certain brands of chocolates but I have not sought out a forum to tell everyone about it. If you don't like something, you're going to want people to know. That kettle you bought on amazon that didn't work after a week? Screw those people, I'm writing them an awful review and giving them 1/5.

Anger or various milder forms of dissatisfaction are much more prevalent on the internet because anger is much more powerful at getting you to air your feelings than "Oh, this product I bough was as described, how nice."

What you're doing is pointing out a vocal, dissatisfied group with the assumption that there is a significant number who are dissatisfied but don't air their views. I'd wager that the situation is likely different, with a group of casual players either with no interest in going back to older games or who can make the transition.

Sampling based on what is on the internet is almost definitely unrepresentative of the entire group.

The difference is that some people basically force their views on others, which is what stirs up the point eclipse is making.

There's a difference between how, say, dondon is stating his views (in a neutral manner and taking both sides into account despite his disdain for Casual mode) and like feplus (saying that Casual mode should be outright eliminated).

[feplus]

I'm stating my views in a calm manner and taking both sides into account. I have never forced views onto anyone.

What some people take issue with is my conclusion, not how I argue towards that conclusion.

[Tamanoir]

You know I have no problems with all the propositions made.

I'd still play in Casual Mode because it's still less restrictive (thought it makes you think more, which is a good thing.)

What I haver a problem with is assuming Casual is inherently easier than Classic.

This is just stupid. Would you sayl Lunatic/Casual, or even Hard/Casal is easier that Normal/Classic.

FE5 won't be affected that much by Casual Mode (Especially if they got Fatigue because of their loss). FE4 already has a Revive Staff, and a unit on Permanent Casual Mode (Deirdre.)

If people sucks at other game after playing Awakeining in Normal/Casual, it's not because of Casual, it's because Normal Mode would makes FE8 Easy Mode looks challenging.

I know Lunatic/Casual seems like an heresy, but in fact it makes sense. If I want to test my skills from Casual/Normal, what makes the mot sense ? Casual/Clasic or Hard/Casual ?

Hell, you could go from Classic/Normal to Casual/Hard (or H2 and + in FE12).

Hell, I'd even go as far as to say that in my cases, I developped worse ways of playing with Classic.

Since I'm absolutely terrified by the simple idea of losing a unit, I ends up turtling like crazy.

I overlevel my units with every ways available so that they can survives against ennemy units.

It's still hard to gets rids of this playstyle, even now.

I'd say anyone who can LTC on Hard/Casual is a better strategist that I ever will be on Normal/Classic

Casual gives you a safety net, and such is a formidable opportunity to try new ways of playing.

Obviously, as long as they will be players treating Casuals worth than plague, instead of paying attenton to what's truly important (how they play inside that mode), then they'll never progress ever.

And it won't be the fault of Casual Mode.

And once they'll be great players inside Casual, then they'll be good too on the older games (except FE4 because it's so different, and maybe FE5.)

(ANd if it was never their objectives, then so be it.)

The huge negative bias towards Casuals are beneficial to no one.

Casual is the tree hiding the forest.

[Gradivus.]

Would you sayl Lunatic/Casual, or even Hard/Casal is easier that Normal/Classic.

Nobody is saying this afaik. Lunatic/Classic is inherently harder than Lunatic/Casual because you can mapsave infinitely and needn't care about deaths in the latter. (In other words, the fact that you're less forced to strategize makes finding it easier logical.) Casual and Classic on the same difficulty are compared when making that point, rather than on separate modes.

On topic, I thought about giving a minor reward in cash (800-1000G?) for keeping all units alive in casual mode, think FE12 prologue, except that the money would decrease more strongly with each unit lost (like - half of the total reward for each unit, instead of a tenth), since we apparently insist on not distributing penalties on casual mode.

My issue doesn't lie with casual mode, much rather the fact that permadeath is repulsive towards many newcomers. By encouraging them to work around deaths, more players will consider playing classic mode. That isn't forcing them to do anything. They might just find classic enjoyable or not, so trying to ensure that they don't shy away from a gameplay aspect is in their favor, since as we all know, classic mode is optional aswell.

The reason why it should be integrated into casual mode rather than classic is that finding out something through one's own experience is much more convincing than just being shown a probably minor reward.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Gradivus.

[Tragonight]

A stat penalty would actually be really harsh.

I'm thinking, if a unit falls in battle, they return to the next chapter with an empty inventory and lose all support points gained from that chapter. Any experience prior to the death is kept.

[dondon151]

losing inventory is way more punishing than a transient stat decrease

[Lord Raven]

I'm stating my views in a calm manner and taking both sides into account. I have never forced views onto anyone.

What some people take issue with is my conclusion, not how I argue towards that conclusion.

i suppose ignoring points is a way of taking both sides into account

[KMT4ever]

I left for three months, and we're still debating whether Casual should exist? It's optional. I personally would just lower the difficulty until I can handle it on Classic, but if someone wants to run through Lunatic without having to worry about someone getting permanently cleaved in half I don't care. Play the game the way you feel most comfortable.

Phoenix mode is somewhat of another story, but whatever IS wants to do...

[feplus]

i suppose ignoring points is a way of taking both sides into account

I have not ignored any points. I have disagreed with many, yes, but this is not ignoring them.

[GrySun]

Maybe have them fatigued or wounded and unable to join the next battle. Then again that's trivialized by going into an open random skirmish...

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Maybe have them fatigued or wounded and unable to join the next battle. Then again that's trivialized by going into an open random skirmish...

honestly if we have to give a small penalty to casual, even tho we shouldn't because its for casuals, this would be the best choice.