[Poll] Your opinion on back to back chapters

[CocoaGalaxy]

Hello folks

To clarify, I will be using the term "back to back chapters" to talk about these chapters in which you cannot save (On Classic anyway, on Casual you can Battle Save I believe) in between, and you also cannot go back to My Castle as well (though how much of a factor that is is debatable)

It's not really spoilers, but there are only four instances of back to back chapters in the three routes

Hoshido 27 + Hoshido Endgame

Conquest 27 + Conquest Endgame

Invisible Kingdom 16 + Invisible Kingdom 17

Invisible Kingdom 27 + Invisible Kingdom Endgame

I don't really recall that much of the previous games (I have only played FE6-13), so I think this is "brand new", or at least fairly new?

The closest thing I can recall is Moment of Fate in FE9, but that was mostly different.

So then, is it really fair?

For Casual players, it's more or less a nonissue I suppose, besides Casual isn't "as demanding" as Classic

On Classic though, I would guess it depends on how "broken" your army is, as people are perfectly capable of steamrolling the Chapters, but on the other hand, it would be unfair to assume that everyone has an army of capped characters.

Personally I find it quite interesting and of a challenge, though if someday they made a 3 chapter gauntlet it might start to get too ridiculous

I suppose it would also depend on the individual difficulty of each chapter, though..from the perspective of an "experienced" player, they don't seem that ridiculous

[Thor Odinson]

I don't mind not being back to mycastle or even no prep screen, but it would be really nice to save.

[Tooru]

Conquest 27 + endgame is much shorter than some other chapters, so that doesn't matter.

[Dengres]

I don't mind not being back to mycastle or even no prep screen, but it would be really nice to save.

This.

[GoXDS]

it'd be nice to have the save option. it's okay only if each of the chapters are short. but then you could argue: why not just make it a single chapter? *shrug*

[Carter]

I don't like back to back chapters, but I'm not sure if they're "fair" or not.

[Medeus]

From what I've heard of it, the only part that really bothers me about them is the lack of a save option as it means if you screw up on one chapter, you have to do both all over again. I'd prefer it if it was more like Radiant Dawn's Chapter 6 since it's two different maps, but you're allowed to save at the beginning of the second and make a couple last minute changes to the team if needed.

[BrightBow]

You can't save? Gee, that sounds frustrating. If I beat a map, I want to be able to draw a line there, no matter how short it is.

I think you couldn't save in the final chapters of the original Mystery of the Emblem. I am not sure if I remember this correctly, but either way I think that this is a case were it would actually be okay since it's the end of the game anyway, so you are at a point were you can take the occasional death and still make it to the credits. It also feels appropriate for a finale to give the player a sense of tension unlike anything in the game before ....although even then, this kinda thing sounds more appropriate for console games and not a handheld games.

Edited September 4, 2015 by BrightBow

[arvilino]

It really depends on the length, back to back chapters are fine at pivotal points without being long. For example in Conquest 27 and Final pretty much make a single chapter by themselves, 27 doesn't really have that many enemies but the Final does. It's almost like FE7 and FE8's two-part final chapters but in reverse order with the shorter battle first.

It'd be unfair if they just tied two regular chapters together without letting the player save, to use the same game it'd be unfair if two big and challenging maps like Chapter 25 and 26 in conquest were back to back. As long as there's a reasonable amount of time/turns/challenge before save points it wouldn't matter whether it's two back to back chapters or a single one it'd be fair. Same goes for unfair, if you have one really long chapter that's twice as long as the average chapter that'd be just as bad as having two average chapters back to back without saving.

Edited September 4, 2015 by arvilino

[NinjaMonkey]

As someone who hated it in Path of Radiance, no and no.

[Azz]

I really dd not mind it.I mean, even though you can;t save between chapters, at least after endgame, you still jeep Yato's ultimate form and I believe all the EXP, new stats and new skills too.

Though I would have liked a prep screen.(Wait did we have a prep screen for Endagme, I can't remember?)

[Tooru]

I really dd not mind it.I mean, even though you can;t save between chapters, at least after endgame, you still jeep Yato's ultimate form and I believe all the EXP, new stats and new skills too.

Though I would have liked a prep screen.(Wait did we have a prep screen for Endagme, I can't remember?)

EXP, stats and skills are not kept. You get the new Yato before starting the battle, so it is kept.

[Sunwoo]

I remember the back-to-back chapter thing being present at least once in FE8 (Eirika route chapter 14-15 comes to mind) and in PoR there was that swamp chapter. Now, I actually like the back-to-back chapters because it gives you a sense of urgency that something is happening and you can't back out of it. I always hated how in Awakening, you had the option to frolic around on the map after chapter 9. Heck, there was even a freaking paralogue that opened up right after Emmeryn had her great fall. It was a massive mood-breaker.

Compare that to PoR chapter 17 where you are progressing deeper into the swamp and can't get out of it until your mission is done. Or FE8 (which also has a world map) in which as Eirika you're trapped in Jehanna surrounded by Grado soldiers in the story … and you're trapped in Jehanna surrounded by Grado soldiers and you can't leave in the gameplay. It immerses you in the situation, and I think FE needs more of it.

That said, I really wish IK chapter 16-17 gave you the option to save!

Edited September 4, 2015 by Sunwoo

[DLNarshen]

Just going to echo the previous sentiments and say they would have been better if one could save between them. It is especially frustrating in Nohr Lunatic, where the final chapter is nearly impossible unless you trained Mozume along with a mounted Pass unit and/or saved all your Vanished Disaster baton uses. Ch. 27 Nohr is short and easy to the point of being a mere formality but I shouldn't have to play it again just to get another chance at the brutally difficult final.

[Othin]

Absolutely terrible. Forcing players to redo large sections of the game in hopes that they'll get all the way through the next time is always a mistake. Being set back a certain amount is useful for adding tension and the pressure to play well, but past a certain point there's already plenty of pressure and any more is just annoying. Single FE chapters are already pushing those limits a lot of the time if not going right past them, and this is even worse.

[Tooru]

Just going to echo the previous sentiments and say they would have been better if one could save between them. It is especially frustrating in Nohr Lunatic, where the final chapter is nearly impossible unless you trained Mozume along with a mounted Pass unit and/or saved all your Vanished Disaster baton uses. Ch. 27 Nohr is short and easy to the point of being a mere formality but I shouldn't have to play it again just to get another chance at the brutally difficult final.

Or you can try two mounted units, and one of them needs Pass.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Tooru

[Peppy]

i honestly don't appreciate it.

Especially in Nohr, considering Nohr Endgame isn't exactly the easiest of chapters. I don't mind redoing a chapter until i figure out a method to beat it but redoing a chapter you already know how to complete beforehand is unneeded busywork. Also, i really hate how the 3rd path does this shit twice...

I'd have no problems if it let you save on the final chapter and let you save after the chapter is completed to do postgame stuff with.

[astrophys]

It would have been better if they had given a warning message saying "you will have to fight and win another battle before you can escape" or something like that and then suggested "you might wish to save your game on a backup or new file to avoid trapping yourself in a potentially unwinnable situation" and then offered the ability to save.

That way, it would be convenient for those who wanted a save and while it would be possible for an unprepared player to overwrite their only save file, they'd have had to ignore the warning for such a thing to happen.

And of course, if you're a good/confident player, you could probably find a way to beat it if you had been able to beat the prior level, so you wouldn't likely get into an un-winnable situation anyways even if you only kept one save.

[GoXDS]

It would have been better if they had given a warning message saying "you will have to fight and win another battle before you can escape" or something like that and then suggested "you might wish to save your game on a backup or new file to avoid trapping yourself in a potentially unwinnable situation" and then offered the ability to save.

That way, it would be convenient for those who wanted a save and while it would be possible for an unprepared player to overwrite their only save file, they'd have had to ignore the warning for such a thing to happen.

And of course, if you're a good/confident player, you could probably find a way to beat it if you had been able to beat the prior level, so you wouldn't likely get into an un-winnable situation anyways even if you only kept one save.

what kind of situation are you imagining with "locking yourself in an unwinnable situation"? only thing I can think of is battle saves like in RD or something but even there, where battle saves are normal save files, you can Start (rather than Continue, or something like that) to go back to prep screen. Awakening (and I assume Fates) had separate save files for battle saves.

and this doesn't even necessarily apply just to back to back but also single chapters as well, unless I'm just misinterpreting your post somewhere since it's so late at night

[astrophys]

Oh, I've never put myself into an unwinnable situation , but I mean stuff like:

A FE player foolishly lets too many of their trained units die in the prior level and then saves and are unable to continue as their surviving units are too overwhelmed by the enemies in the next level.

And because Fates (at least, 2/3 of its routes) is a game that otherwise allows grinding, perhaps they'd reasonably but mistakenly think they'd have the opportunity to grind their way out of the problem with the survivors, so they'd save to retain their last chapter's progress, only to realize that they cannot exit to MyCastle to do so.

In examples from JRPGs, a player critically low on health and mana and without items too allow them to escape saves in the middle of a dangerous dungeon, such that they have no real chance of making it out alive now.

Basically, both are situations brought about by player foolishness. That said, despite their foolishness, SRPGs and RPGs can be a great time investment. I'd imagine that it would really stink to find that you were effectively unable to continue the game due to putting yourself into a situation, so although they should have been more responsible, I cannot help but feel kind of bad for them because that's a lot of game time on the file that might be essentially useless now due to what might have been a brief but major lapse in proper judgment.

Edited September 5, 2015 by astrophys

[Mackc2]

Oh, I've never put myself into an unwinnable situation , but I mean stuff like:

A FE player foolishly lets too many of their trained units die in the prior level and then saves and are unable to continue as their surviving units are too overwhelmed by the enemies in the next level.

And because Fates (at least, 2/3 of its routes) is a game that otherwise allows grinding, perhaps they'd reasonably but mistakenly think they'd have the opportunity to grind their way out of the problem with the survivors, so they'd save to retain their last chapter's progress, only to realize that they cannot exit to MyCastle to do so.

In examples from JRPGs, a player critically low on health and mana and without items too allow them to escape saves in the middle of a dangerous dungeon, such that they have no real chance of making it out alive now.

Basically, both are situations brought about by player foolishness. That said, despite their foolishness, SRPGs and RPGs can be a great time investment. I'd imagine that it would really stink to find that you were effectively unable to continue the game due to putting yourself into a situation, so although they should have been more responsible, I cannot help but feel kind of bad for them because that's a lot of game time on the file that might be essentially useless now due to what might have been a brief but major lapse in proper judgment.

You know what this reminds me of those times when skyrim auto-saves the second that you die so you are locked in an infinite cycle of dead or those times in xcom where all of your best units go down in one mission on ironman so you just have almost no hope

Saving should be allowed in Nohr thought since there is no going back to map and grinding

[CocoaGalaxy]

What I find funny is that, currently for the 33 votes, 16 say that it's fair, but 18 don't want more

Does this mean that people feel that "It's okay to have some, but 4 sets of maps in 72 maps total (not counting paralogues) is too much?"

One thing I was reminded of is that, it may or may not depend on the difficulty (and rather simply, the player's experience, game or franchise wise)

Then again it's hard to say, realistically speaking I don't think (or at least I haven't seen) that much information on comparing different players experiences.

(Whether or not it's relevant...for an experienced player, I was a little disappointed in the final chapters.)

(Hoshido 27 is a straight up slaughterhouse "as usual" for Hoshido. Hoshido Endgame, ask Omegaevolution demonstrated [On hard mode though, it may or may not be a different story on lunatic], 3 units were sufficient to finish the boss in a single turn due to his close proximity, making the entire map largely irrelevant)

(Nohr 27 is ...odd and kind of interesting, the extravagance and counter people aside, I don't really think it was that difficult either. It seems it's main purpose is to make you waste time if you screw up Nohr Endgame. Nohr Endgame is pretty interesting, map attack or not, plus the whole "enemy reinforcements you can't preemptively kill", though they may not actually matter in the long run since faster players can just straight rush down to the boss, who is still arguably the easiest of the three)

(Invisible Kingdom 27 is cheesed in a single turn by resetting until you proc the skill/crit needed. Unfortunately while it is now very difficult to OHKO bosses [still possible, apparently], ORKOing them is still not that difficult. Invisible Kingdom Endgame at least has the decency to try and trip you up with reinforcements, but you can just preemptively slaughter them during Player Phase and the boss really can't do much to harm you)

Edited September 5, 2015 by CocoaGalaxy

[GoXDS]

Oh, I've never put myself into an unwinnable situation , but I mean stuff like:

A FE player foolishly lets too many of their trained units die in the prior level and then saves and are unable to continue as their surviving units are too overwhelmed by the enemies in the next level.

And because Fates (at least, 2/3 of its routes) is a game that otherwise allows grinding, perhaps they'd reasonably but mistakenly think they'd have the opportunity to grind their way out of the problem with the survivors, so they'd save to retain their last chapter's progress, only to realize that they cannot exit to MyCastle to do so.

In examples from JRPGs, a player critically low on health and mana and without items too allow them to escape saves in the middle of a dangerous dungeon, such that they have no real chance of making it out alive now.

Basically, both are situations brought about by player foolishness. That said, despite their foolishness, SRPGs and RPGs can be a great time investment. I'd imagine that it would really stink to find that you were effectively unable to continue the game due to putting yourself into a situation, so although they should have been more responsible, I cannot help but feel kind of bad for them because that's a lot of game time on the file that might be essentially useless now due to what might have been a brief but major lapse in proper judgment.

as long as there's no soft-save or forced save in "part 2", this shouldn't be an issue. I don't think it's Ch 27 that locks you out of My Castle, only Endgame? hopefully there's no save option at the end of Ch 27 (correct me if I'm wrong). and this issue is not inherent to back-to-back chapters but a flaw of FE in general (in cases where there's no grinding, like a bunch of past games)

Edited September 5, 2015 by GoXDS

[astrophys]

Oh, there isn't any forced save or anything like that in the game (Fates)…. I was speaking the hypothetical .

The hypothetical danger in putting a save point between back-to-back battles from which you cannot escape is that if you save after the first but then you cannot beat the second (or further subsequent one), you're stuck. Which is why I feel that if you're about to have such a situation, its a good courtesy to at least caution the player about this situation (for example, if they haven't played the game before and don't know that they're in danger of possibly being stuck).

Its the sort of problem people had with the Riovannes Castle sequence in Final Fantasy tactics if they couldn't beat

Wiegraf/Belias

. They beat a the first battle (of the four battle sequence), save, and then find that they aren't sufficiently prepared for the second or third battle, but they cannot escape and they already saved. And then they're stuck unless they had also kept an earlier save file as well.

[Ice Sage]

I don't mind it at all. Gives a sense of urgency. Just wish you could save but oh well.