About same-sex marriage function...

[exizel]

Kotaku knocked of a couple points because of this in their Awakening review. Given, it's Kotaku, but there's an example.

I just read it, and they didn't , they just say :

" If you think, as I did, that it's weird and a bit disappointing that there's no same-sex marriage in the game, you can at least take solace that the game's wacky character-compatibility tester lets you generate images like this:

I don't think you can call this a exemple, the lack of same sex marriage wasn't even in the cons , and I was surprised to see that they don't use points system, their rating system is just the answer to the question "should I play that game?", it 's kind of hard to knocked points in a system like that.

Kotaku review:http://kotaku.com/5980657/fire-emblem-awakening-the-kotaku-review?utm_expid=66866090-52.r5txldOmRkqnbJxnyozIeA.0&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com

Edited September 10, 2015 by exizel

[The DanMan]

I just read it, and they didn't , they just say :

" If you think, as I did, that it's weird and a bit disappointing that there's no same-sex marriage in the game, you can at least take solace that the game's wacky character-compatibility tester lets you generate images like this:

I don't think you can call this a exemple, the lack of same sex marriage wasn't even in the cons , and I was surprised to see that they don't use points system, their rating system is just the answer to the question "should I play that game?", it 's kind of hard to knocked points in a system like that.

I was being figurative; even then, as you said, it was pretty minor.

[NeptuniasBeard]

I was being figurative; even then, as you said, it was pretty minor.

It seems to be simply informative. Like "Hey, the game doesn't have gay marriage, just fyi"

They were more bothered by the lack of feet, which is understandable, because God hates horse-people

[Duke of Dozel]

It's a reviewer giving an opinion. Their word isn't law, especially Kotaku. But it's good they didn't dock points for that, because that would have been hella biased when you're supposed to be as objective as needed.

[Azz]

TBH I would not give a shit if there are no LGBTQ characters in the next game(Contradictory to my previous statement I know), but if they still go on with having an Avatar meant to be the player and represent them, then I would.I mean if I am to play a game in which I can marry characters, I would like to marry someone based on my sexual orientation.Like I would be pretty ticked off if in the next game they included an Avatar, marriage and no same-sex option when they did in the previous, regardless of who the option is.

Like many said, not everyone needs to be bi, and we don't need a completely gay character but I would like options, again, especially if they keep up with the Avatar and marriage system.(And no doubt they will based on the polls)

[Fire Emblem Fan]

Who said any gay characters included are shoehorned n? That's why you people keep flipping the fuck out, because you take any inclusion as tokenism. I'd guess you're the type to label a movie starring black people to be a "black movie"

Read the post I quoted, you completely missed all the context of my statement.

Also, you couldn't be more wrong. I don't take that character in Borderlands 2--Hammerlock or whatever his name was--as tokenism, nor do I take any of the Mass Effect characters as tokenism, or any of the...I'll stop there. But the Fire Emblem characters? Yeah, they seem like tokenism, and I'm definitely not the only one who thinks so, I'm pretty sure there was even someone else in this very thread who said something similar...? Might have been a different one though, I'm too lazy to go back and check.

Also, about your black movie statement...well, again, you couldn't be more wrong. That's a silly thing of you to say and it's very presumptuous of you, and honestly kind of insulting. And besides, there are many, many movies out there that are officially labeled as "black comedy" or "black drama" or "black *insert other word here*". I'd guess your the type to label "GAYZ MUST BE INCLOODED IN EVRYTHING OR U R A HOMOFOBE."

When has this ever happened? What reviewer was like "this is a fun game with a deep plot and engaging characters. Nobody's queer though. 7.8 too much heterosexuals" Don't keep making these hypothetical situations up then act like they've always been real. As for the last bit, the internet's a big place, there are dumbasses, trolls, and dumbass trolls that will say such silly things. Like I saw some dingus somewhere say that if FE kept putting in queer characters then he may not get the game, because somehow, having gay characters lowers the quality of the game. It's important to remember that these are not even a drop in the bucket of the total fanbase.

"Don't keep making these hypothetical situations and then act like they've always been real." You talk like I've done this before? That's not at all what I've done, said, or meant. I specifically said "in the future" and "future games" and such. Nowhere did I ever act like they've always been real. But I won't lie, that's exactly where I see society and game critics headed, I'm completely convinced that they will complain and knock points off if there are no LGBTQ characters in future games. I once again point at the Tomodachi Life disaster and I'll also point to IGN's "too much water in a Pokemon game centered on water vs. land." Have reviewers actually knocked points off for no LGBTQ characters? No. Of course not. However, Kotaku's Awakening review was walking the very line I'm afraid reviewers will cross. Like I said, I'm completely convinced that, in the future (just so people don't skewer my context again), reviewers will knock off points if there are no LGBTQ characters, and that's sad and stupid.

As for your last bit, about "having gay characters somehow lowers the quality of the game", that's exactly what I was saying except in reverse. Not having gay characters will not lower the quality of the game. We're saying the same thing here.

Because of something a few people said, you want to spite everyone who wants representation? Why? Who benefits from this? You're getting upset about a multiflavored cake that never gets smaller

And newsflash, very few games need ANY type of romance, straight or otherwise. What makes your preferred type of fictional romance more important than the next person's? Why not dump all the non-queer characters?

No, no spite. Just to say/show that the quality of the game is not lowered just because it doesn't have LGBTQ characters. I'm not getting upset about a cake that never gets smaller, I'm getting upset at idiots, there seems to be more and more idiots all the time and it worries me.

Also, newsflash. I know very few games need any type of romance. Honestly, I've been hoping for a totally platonic Fire Emblem game for a long time now. I know that will never happen, especially considering the direction the series seems to be taking, and I know that sounds like an odd thing for me to hope for, but hey a man can dream!

[Integrity]

Who said any gay characters included are shoehorned n? That's why you people keep flipping the fuck out, because you take any inclusion as tokenism. I'd guess you're the type to label a movie starring black people to be a "black movie"

1: chill out, yo

2: there is such a thing as bad representation, and it sounds like the gay-capable (that sounds like like it's a hardware modification, lmao) are fetish stereotype fuckdoll characters. yaoi and yuri are actively detrimental to acceptance, hth

EDIT: i could be wrong about the characters in fartes tho, i'm only going on hearsay...

Edited September 10, 2015 by Integrity

[Ebony]

1: chill out, yo

2: there is such a thing as bad representation, and it sounds like the gay-capable (that sounds like like it's a hardware modification, lmao) are fetish stereotype fuckdoll characters. yaoi and yuri are actively detrimental to acceptance, hth

EDIT: i could be wrong about the characters in fartes tho, i'm only going on hearsay...

Adding onto this, there are two characters who are massive fans of same sex couples (Soleil and Eponine respectively) and I doubt that they're exactly... helping.

[Sunwoo]

Adding onto this, there are two characters who are massive fans of same sex couples (Soleil and Eponine respectively) and I doubt that they're exactly... helping.

Yeah, Soleil and Eponine are not helping. From the support translations I've seen, in most (if not all) of her non-parental supports Eponine is fantasizing about guys being together in some way, shape or form. Even if the support has nothing to do with it. I very highly doubt that actual yaoi fangirls fantasize about guys being together every single waking moment of their lives, which is what Eponine does to an extent. She and Soleil have a very stupid conversation about which of yaoi or yuri was better, and it felt like I was reading something written by a kindergartner.

Speaking of Soleil, her problems extend to more than being bi-leaning-women but only being able to marry men. She borderline sexually harasses Foleo because she thought he was a girl and then because he was cute, and basically just hits on anything female (including her own mother) even if they make it clear that they really don't like her advances. The thing is, she comes off as being even more persistent than Inigo (at least, in the translations I've read) and seems to actually make people uncomfortable.

[CyborgZeta]

The most I'll say about gay marriage in Fates is that I'm surprised they didn't make Camilla an option.

Considering her characterization, it would make sense.

[Ebony]

Yeah, Soleil and Eponine are not helping. From the support translations I've seen, in most (if not all) of her non-parental supports Eponine is fantasizing about guys being together in some way, shape or form. Even if the support has nothing to do with it. I very highly doubt that actual yaoi fangirls fantasize about guys being together every single waking moment of their lives, which is what Eponine does to an extent. She and Soleil have a very stupid conversation about which of yaoi or yuri was better, and it felt like I was reading something written by a kindergartner.

Speaking of Soleil, her problems extend to more than being bi-leaning-women but only being able to marry men. She borderline sexually harasses Foleo because she thought he was a girl and then because he was cute, and basically just hits on anything female (including her own mother) even if they make it clear that they really don't like her advances. The thing is, she comes off as being even more persistent than Inigo (at least, in the translations I've read) and seems to actually make people uncomfortable.

As a past yaoi fangirl (shudders) I can confirm that I don't see two guys talking and I go, "you know, I bet they make out." Eponine's is really stretching it. It's a shame for both of them, I loved them as soon as I see them. I really don't want to hate Soleil, but yet those supports... I hope they do get patched up in the English.

The last thing we need are just two yuri/yaoi fans running around... not only yaoi/yuri fans... stereotypical yaoi/yuri fans.

[Sunwoo]

Definitely, yeah. A person or character can be into yaoi or yuri but not have it be their entire character … which is basically the case for Eponine and Soleil. All of their supports revolve around it to some extent.

I think a bigger issue is that gay and lesbian characters don't (or at the very least shouldn't) exist because yaoi and yuri fans may want them. There are real people who are gay, lesbian, or bi and they're not defined by their sexuality. Characters like Soleil and Eponine aren't helpful because in a way it "fetishizes" homosexuality and makes it more difficult to take it seriously I suppose.

[Ebony]

Definitely, yeah. A person or character can be into yaoi or yuri but not have it be their entire character … which is basically the case for Eponine and Soleil. All of their supports revolve around it to some extent.

I think a bigger issue is that gay and lesbian characters don't (or at the very least shouldn't) exist because yaoi and yuri fans may want them. There are real people who are gay, lesbian, or bi and they're not defined by their sexuality. Characters like Soleil and Eponine aren't helpful because in a way it "fetishizes" homosexuality and makes it more difficult to take it seriously I suppose.

Basically you've hit the nail on its head. It makes them act like they're... what? 12? From DeviantArt? In a game where the two taken gay characters (despite the fact I love Zero) are kind of... stereotypes I guess, it's hurting that two more are stereotypical fans of the genres.

[carefreejules]

Basically you've hit the nail on its head. It makes them act like they're... what? 12? From DeviantArt? In a game where the two taken gay characters (despite the fact I love Zero) are kind of... stereotypes I guess, it's hurting that two more are stereotypical fans of the genres.

I actually emailed Nintendo about this awhile back during that time people were making a huge deal about Soleil and they basically said the generic "we'll keep be sure to bring your email up when we start to work on the game's localization script blah blah blah" and even though I'm not that extremely hopeful that we'll see a complete rewrite or if they'll even bring my email/everyone's emails up but, it's something to hang on to, even if it's unlikely.

Their characters honestly remind me of, yeah, deviantART weaboos. I like my fair share of m/m and f/f pairings, but I don't make a huge deal about them and I don't think anyone should. It's already kind of gross that they're kind of shipping real people in the game like, they're human beings with feelings. It's one thing to say, "I think so and so look good together" but to actually go as far as to imagine them doing the do or anything really intimate is really creepy imo.

Edited September 10, 2015 by carefreejules

[Integrity]

caveat for effort post: i'm a straight white american dude and have basically as little connection to any minority as is possible; the perspective i want to convey isn't that of the oppressed, but that of someone in the privileged majority who actually had trouble accepting homosexuality at one point (actually, fun fact, it was an sf member who turned me around, lol)

I think a bigger issue is that gay and lesbian characters don't (or at the very least shouldn't) exist because yaoi and yuri fans may want them. There are real people who are gay, lesbian, or bi and they're not defined by their sexuality. Characters like Soleil and Eponine aren't helpful because in a way it "fetishizes" homosexuality and makes it more difficult to take it seriously I suppose.

this was a huge thing for me back in the day that was a stumbling block. when i'd see gay characters, it seemed like they were either defined by their gayness or their gayness gave them special powers of some sort. an example that comes to mind quickly is in one of the bad seasons of supernatural (most of them, lbr here) felicia day has a character who is Explicitly Gay. this character is desired by all who feast eyes on her but SORRY GUYS SHE'S GAY but she totally does all the casual sex with women isn't she awesome and when there's a fairy in the episode who's a chick (spoilers) naturally she just 100% wants to bang felicia day. from a show with other gay characters, sure, a super sexually appealing character who is also gay is a character archetype that you can leverage, but felicia day's character is literally the only named example of a gay character in the show's run i can think of.

there was also a bit of it in heroes where in the thirdish season one of the characters decided to have a little bit of a walk on the wild side and the whole plot line seemed like it was contrived just because LESBIAN MAKEOUT SCENE amirite guys? i could probably think of more examples but i'm already getting tired of putting effort into a post ;(

the net result of the 'fetishization' of homosexuality is to remove agency from the characters, bringing them down to either wankbait (omg lesbians making out guys) or tokenism ("this character is soooo gay guys aren't we progressive??? nudge nudge" -a straight white guy) and neither of those things are what real people should be, which creates a perception that gay people aren't real people, which just is bad. people, contrary to all the internet nerds who are smugly "above that", do take a lot of cues from the media they consume.

there was a really great article i read a few years back about the Feminist Game of the Year going to warhammer 40,000: space marine, a pretty good but not great fight mans action game. the reason the game got the accolade from this blogger was because of leftlieutenant mira, the imperial guard commander you deal with over the course of the game. in a setting very often ruled by men, in a genre likewise, her gender was utterly inconsequential. her troops respected her authority, she handled crises in your absence, her character was strong and unyielding (including to you, spess mehreen), basically everything about the character was "imperial guard officer" but her model and voice were female. "feminist game of the year" may have been an overstatement, but i unironically think that that's a good example of good representation in a role.

another thing worth pointing out about that that i forgot to when i was constructing it and can't figure out where i want to put it is that nobody else in the game made anything of her gender; your fight man responded to her on the horn like he would any imperial guard officer EDIT: quick, think of an example of a game with a Strong Female Character where the main character responds to her introduction with "what? a female?!" and then every other interaction ignores it /EDIT, the soldiers didn't even have any idle chatter about it. even if you have a well-rounded character who happens to be a minority, having other characters (yaoi/yuri) making a huge deal out of that something fulfills the exact same undermining purpose as cheapening the character to have them point out how progressive you are for putting them in that role, nudge nudge. the good news is, you can get around that to an extent by portraying those characters in an explicitly negative light, or if you're really hamhanded by having them learn their lessons onscreen, but having it happen in the first place cheapens the character role and weakens their representative function. christ, that sounds dehumanizing as anything, maybe i need something to drink.

the good news is i can think of a bunch of great examples of well-done characters who were also homosexual or whatever significant minority one would care to throw, but that doesn't mean that tokenism/fetishization don't happen, and from all i've heard that's exactly the route fartes strayed really close to in its portrayals.

tl;dr homosexuality is cool and good, yaoi/yuri are bad and detrimental to society

EDIT: motherfucker that's more words than i've put into a post since drafting tournaments explained

Edited September 10, 2015 by Integrity

[Loki Laufeyson]

REALLY BIG WALL OF TEXT

Another example is Ser Loras in A Song of Ice And Fire. In the books, this guy's gayness with Renly Baratheon was hinted and a lot of innuendo was dropped. (i mean, come on. Renly had the RAINBOW GUARD ffs) And yet, none of the characters were terribly overt about it unless it was to give Loras a dig. (Jaime Lannister saying something like "Cool the 'tude, dude or ill stick that sword somewhere even Renly hasnt been.") Same thing with Renly before...the events of A Clash of Kings happened. (rip)

Fastfoward to the adaptation, Game of Thrones. Loras is seen with Renly in...situations. After season 2, we later see Loras meeting a "squire" and...you can imagine whats happening there. While it was nice to finally see male nudity in that show for once, the other implication was less fortunate. :/ Instead of portraying Loras/Renly as an actual freaking love story (because thats what was going on in the books), we get GAY FANSERVICE! I dont think id have an issue with it if the character of Loras wasnt portrayed as "i will boink a dude!" post-season 2. (cuz he hella doesnt do that shit and never gets over what happened to Renly)

This is why i got really hopeful when people said Zero's supports with maMU were actually pretty good and the romantic one was decent. People said the same thing about Shara. While i think we all would have preferred Silas and Aqua being the options, i do see the baby step being taken here. And i hope later on, we may get some solid representation.

[Florete]

tl;dr homosexuality is cool and good, yaoi/yuri are bad and detrimental to society

You must be misunderstanding these words in some way. Yaoi/Yuri are just terms for romance among the same gender. They might as well just be the word "homosexuality" split into two gender-based words.

It's not too much of a surprise that this mistake could be made since western fandom has confused and perversed the terms at times, but that's all it is. There's nothing inherently bad about them whatsoever.

[Integrity]

You must be misunderstanding these words in some way. Yaoi/Yuri are just terms for romance among the same gender. They might as well just be the word "homosexuality" split into two gender-based words.

It's not too much of a surprise that this mistake could be made since western fandom has confused and perversed the terms at times, but that's all it is. There's nothing inherently bad about them whatsoever.

that could be something i'm misinterpreting but regardless of what the words originally meant, i've only ever seen them used to mean the fetishization of homosexual ...well, not even romance so much as sex. occasionally romance i guess.

that said if they're actually used more to mean just homosexuality that's cool and i'm wrong, nbd, i'm just working with what i've seen

[Loki Laufeyson]

Yaoi and yuri do mean "boys love" and "girls love" respectively. But honestly, the words are used to describe Japanese media that tends to fetishize homosexuality. That, and the stigma of "yaoi/yuri fan". That stigma being those who ship characters of the same gender regardless of character sexuality, and literally have problems with heterosexual partnership. Considering that yaoi in particular is designed for female audiences (especially heterosexual female fandom), it doesnt help matters. Yaoi often does not portray homosexual relationships in an accurate manner. Often assigning roles found in heteronormative relationships to the characters. (yeah... Seme and Uke is usually in reference to roles in the relationship. The Uke is usually written as "the female" of the relationship.) This is one reason why a lot of the gay community prefer bara seeing how its actually written for gay men.

tl;dr yaoi/yuri is often fetishized and not exactly the best portrayal of homosexuality. And its fanbase gets...unpleasant.

[Florete]

that could be something i'm misinterpreting but regardless of what the words originally meant, i've only ever seen them used to mean the fetishization of homosexual ...well, not even romance so much as sex. occasionally romance i guess.

that said if they're actually used more to mean just homosexuality that's cool and i'm wrong, nbd, i'm just working with what i've seen

There are certainly bad examples of yaoi/yuri, but that's true for anything and has nothing to do with the definition of the words. Good yaoi/yuri still is yaoi/yuri.

Yaoi and yuri do mean "boys love" and "girls love" respectively. But honestly, the words are used to describe Japanese media that tends to fetishize homosexuality. That, and the stigma of "yaoi/yuri fan". That stigma being those who ship characters of the same gender regardless of character sexuality, and literally have problems with heterosexual partnership. Considering that yaoi in particular is designed for female audiences (especially heterosexual female fandom), it doesnt help matters. Yaoi often does not portray homosexual relationships in an accurate manner. Often assigning roles found in heteronormative relationships to the characters. (yeah... Seme and Uke is usually in reference to roles in the relationship. The Uke is usually written as "the female" of the relationship.) This is one reason why a lot of the gay community prefer bara seeing how its actually written for gay men.

tl;dr yaoi/yuri is often fetishized and not exactly the best portrayal of homosexuality. And its fanbase gets...unpleasant.

For the record, I'm much more familiar with yuri than yaoi. Yuri (serious yuri, not porn/fanservice) is typically targeted at a female audience and written by women. Comic Yuri Hime (guess what it publishes) has a 60% female subscriber base last I checked.

Like above, though, fan stigmas don't have anything to do with the definition of a word. I consider myself a yuri fan, and I definitely dislike the over-sexualization of it in media, but good yuri is still yuri.

I think I had more I wanted to say but I'm being called so...

[EJ107]

It irritates me when people say that yaoi/yuri is bad because it fetishizes gay couples. I may be no expert in the matter, but I like media that includes gay couples and have seen a lot of Yaoi and Bara stuff, as well as some Yuri.

The first thing that people don't seem to understand is that Bara as a genre is just as fetishized as yaoi. In fact, the physical appearance of the characters tends to be more fetishized. Insanely muscular, more emphasis on the butt and groin... it also tends to be more sexually explicit. Yaoi tends to be more... emotionally fetishized, if that makes sense. Its less about the physical acts and more about the relationship dynamics. That's not to say that Bara isn't romantic or that Yaoi is not explicit, just that Bara, which is aimed at men, tends to be more focused around physical arousal and Yaoi, aimed at women, more about emotional arousal. In fact, as somebody who is more of a romantic and less interested in the overly sexual visual depictions of men in Bara I tend to prefer the more female-aimed stuff. That said, as it is generally written by and aimed at gay/bisexual men Bara generally avoids the awkward rape tropes and the strange seme/uke dynamic obsession that Yaoi often has.

When I look for representation I look for characters in a story where their sexuality or relationships are not the focus. If it's a romance story featuring a gay couple then it's less about the representation and more about emotional and physical gratification for the viewer, who is almost always somebody who wants to see two men or women getting it on because it appeals to them emotionally or physically. Same with the gay romance options in Fates. The clichés and stereotypes are there for a reason, and that is that the people consuming this stuff enjoy them. Yes, Yaoi may be fetishy in it's attempts to appeal to women, but considering bara is just as bad in how it tries to appeal to gay and bisexual men I see no reason to villify it.

It would be nice to see more gay/bisexual characters in other genres though, and in games which don't focus on romance and marriage.

Anyway, sorry for rambling.

Edited September 11, 2015 by EJ107

[gayserbeam]

more text than would fit on my screen

caveat for effort post: i'm a straight white american dude and have basically as little connection to any minority as is possible; the perspective i want to convey isn't that of the oppressed, but that of someone in the privileged majority who actually had trouble accepting homosexuality at one point (actually, fun fact, it was an sf member who turned me around, lol) this was a huge thing for me back in the day that was a stumbling block. when i'd see gay characters, it seemed like they were either defined by their gayness or their gayness gave them special powers of some sort. an example that comes to mind quickly is in one of the bad seasons of supernatural (most of them, lbr here) felicia day has a character who is Explicitly Gay. this character is desired by all who feast eyes on her but SORRY GUYS SHE'S GAY but she totally does all the casual sex with women isn't she awesome and when there's a fairy in the episode who's a chick (spoilers) naturally she just 100% wants to bang felicia day. from a show with other gay characters, sure, a super sexually appealing character who is also gay is a character archetype that you can leverage, but felicia day's character is literally the only named example of a gay character in the show's run i can think of.there was also a bit of it in heroes where in the thirdish season one of the characters decided to have a little bit of a walk on the wild side and the whole plot line seemed like it was contrived just because LESBIAN MAKEOUT SCENE amirite guys? i could probably think of more examples but i'm already getting tired of putting effort into a post ;(the net result of the 'fetishization' of homosexuality is to remove agency from the characters, bringing them down to either wankbait (omg lesbians making out guys) or tokenism ("this character is soooo gay guys aren't we progressive??? nudge nudge" -a straight white guy) and neither of those things are what real people should be, which creates a perception that gay people aren't real people, which just is bad. people, contrary to all the internet nerds who are smugly "above that", do take a lot of cues from the media they consume.there was a really great article i read a few years back about the Feminist Game of the Year going to warhammer 40,000: space marine, a pretty good but not great fight mans action game. the reason the game got the accolade from this blogger was because of leftlieutenant mira, the imperial guard commander you deal with over the course of the game. in a setting very often ruled by men, in a genre likewise, her gender was utterly inconsequential. her troops respected her authority, she handled crises in your absence, her character was strong and unyielding (including to you, spess mehreen), basically everything about the character was "imperial guard officer" but her model and voice were female. "feminist game of the year" may have been an overstatement, but i unironically think that that's a good example of good representation in a role.another thing worth pointing out about that that i forgot to when i was constructing it and can't figure out where i want to put it is that nobody else in the game made anything of her gender; your fight man responded to her on the horn like he would any imperial guard officer EDIT: quick, think of an example of a game with a Strong Female Character where the main character responds to her introduction with "what? a female?!" and then every other interaction ignores it /EDIT, the soldiers didn't even have any idle chatter about it. even if you have a well-rounded character who happens to be a minority, having other characters (yaoi/yuri) making a huge deal out of that something fulfills the exact same undermining purpose as cheapening the character to have them point out how progressive you are for putting them in that role, nudge nudge. the good news is, you can get around that to an extent by portraying those characters in an explicitly negative light, or if you're really hamhanded by having them learn their lessons onscreen, but having it happen in the first place cheapens the character role and weakens their representative function. christ, that sounds dehumanizing as anything, maybe i need something to drink.the good news is i can think of a bunch of great examples of well-done characters who were also homosexual or whatever significant minority one would care to throw, but that doesn't mean that tokenism/fetishization don't happen, and from all i've heard that's exactly the route fartes strayed really close to in its portrayals.tl;dr homosexuality is cool and good, yaoi/yuri are bad and detrimental to societyEDIT:

motherfucker that's more words than i've put into a post since drafting tournaments explained

I agree with you, but this of thinking can be taken a little too far in the other direction, causing similarly poor representation. Often, a character will be gay, but it is only mentioned off-handedly, and its not an important part of their character at all, and they never perform any homosexual activity on-screen. This is often praised as positive representation, and in a way, it is: I don't want to be defined entirely by my orientation contrary to what my username would suggest and neither does any LGBTQ individual. However, a character who is gay and doesn't demonstrate gay things gives the message to the audience that gay people can do good and normal things aside from the sexual activites and sterotypical attributes of homosexuality, while a more positive message would that the the sexual activites and sterotypical attributes of homosexuality are or can be good and normal. Essentially, the most beneficial representation doesn't just demonstrate that gay people can do acceptable things, it demonstrates that homosexuality itself is acceptable.

Now, having your gay character bang every other dude who winks at him has its own problems (I'm looking at you, Game of Thrones). This approach, taken by almost every HBO show or contemporary British drama ever, turns gay characters into objects of fetish, and seemingly exists to bait in a female and gay audience starved for sex appeal and representation. Gay sex scenes almost always involve two young, gorgeous, recently acquainted individuals; which is an idealized and sexualized situation that moves homosexuality out of the realm of normality and into the realm of fetish and fantasy.

The happy medium is as simple as this: when a gay character does something gay and the text doesn't imply that it was wrong or that it was the sexiest thing ever. It's also when a gay character isn't defined by their homosexuality, but it isn't ignored.

All that being said, Fates' represention is not bad in and of itself. But the characters they chose, the perverted sadist and the insane devotee, that imply that their love for Kamui is more a result of Zero's sexual deviance and Syalla's demented obsession than "real" homosexuality.

[Baldrick]

The first thing that people don't seem to understand is that Bara as a genre is just as fetishized as yaoi.

I think the difference is that bara is fetishizing muscles, whereas yaoi is fetishizing homosexual relationships. In the latter, they're being objectified.

Back to the topic, my understanding of Zero's character is that he's designed to appeal to women into yaoi rather than gay men.

[NekoKnight]

I think the difference is that bara is fetishizing muscles, whereas yaoi is fetishizing homosexual relationships. In the latter, they're being objectified.

Back to the topic, my understanding of Zero's character is that he's designed to appeal to women into yaoi rather than gay men.

I can see Zero put in as fanservice for girls (he's the dominant person in the typical yaoi work). I have to wonder about who Shara is aimed at. Usually when I think of Yuri it's a sweet thing between two innocent girls. Shara's form of love seems more perverse. I think either Soleil or Camilla would have made better bisexuals, but that's just me.

[NeptuniasBeard]

Read the post I quoted, you completely missed all the context of my statement.

Also, you couldn't be more wrong. I don't take that character in Borderlands 2--Hammerlock or whatever his name was--as tokenism, nor do I take any of the Mass Effect characters as tokenism, or any of the...I'll stop there. But the Fire Emblem characters? Yeah, they seem like tokenism, and I'm definitely not the only one who thinks so, I'm pretty sure there was even someone else in this very thread who said something similar...? Might have been a different one though, I'm too lazy to go back and check.

Also, about your black movie statement...well, again, you couldn't be more wrong. That's a silly thing of you to say and it's very presumptuous of you, and honestly kind of insulting. And besides, there are many, many movies out there that are officially labeled as "black comedy" or "black drama" or "black *insert other word here*". I'd guess your the type to label "GAYZ MUST BE INCLOODED IN EVRYTHING OR U R A HOMOFOBE."

Admittedly, I came in a bit harsh, but I stand by several of my points. And to elaborate on my "black movie" bit, I meant it as in "those who use it in a deragatory way. And honestly, I'm pretty sure it's all but fallen out practice by black people since the 2000's. Nowadays the only time someone uses "Black Comedy" is when the subject matter is dark. Anyway, back to the topic at hand. I saw the comment you were responding to, and it was rubbish because they make it seem like ANY inclusion of gay characters is some kind of pc move. It's a business move, sure, but Japan doesn't care about being pc. And on your tokenism point, this isn't tokenism. Well, ok, they were clearly added to draw in those kind of fans. Tokenism would be if being queer was a major part of their character, or if they were at least elevated to the main cast, occasionally throwing out some shallow quip to remiind the audience that yes, they are here and queer. Zero and Shara's sexuality only ever comes in S-supports. One could play through the game and the only thing telling them that Zero and Shara are bi is that they can S-support with both Kamui's.

"Don't keep making these hypothetical situations and then act like they've always been real." You talk like I've done this before? That's not at all what I've done, said, or meant. I specifically said "in the future" and "future games" and such. Nowhere did I ever act like they've always been real. But I won't lie, that's exactly where I see society and game critics headed, I'm completely convinced that they will complain and knock points off if there are no LGBTQ characters in future games. I once again point at the Tomodachi Life disaster and I'll also point to IGN's "too much water in a Pokemon game centered on water vs. land." Have reviewers actually knocked points off for no LGBTQ characters? No. Of course not. However, Kotaku's Awakening review was walking the very line I'm afraid reviewers will cross. Like I said, I'm completely convinced that, in the future (just so people don't skewer my context again), reviewers will knock off points if there are no LGBTQ characters, and that's sad and stupid.

As for your last bit, about "having gay characters somehow lowers the quality of the game", that's exactly what I was saying except in reverse. Not having gay characters will not lower the quality of the game. We're saying the same thing here.

Where have you even seen hints of this happening though? There aren't reviewers knocking points off for not have black people. All kotaku said was that they found it a bit disappointing that there were no same-sex couples. That's a valid comment to make in passing. Like saying "this shake is really good, I wish it was a little thicker though". I mean it IS Kotaku. If anyone would do something like that, they'll be the first, but I doubt it'll ever happen.

I'm glad we're in agreement on the quality not being affected, that was more in response of the statistician you quoted.

No, no spite. Just to say/show that the quality of the game is not lowered just because it doesn't have LGBTQ characters. I'm not getting upset about a cake that never gets smaller, I'm getting upset at idiots, there seems to be more and more idiots all the time and it worries me.

Yeah, there will be those types who demand inclusion. We call them the dark corner of tumblr, and we do our best to ignore them. Unless you were including me in those 'idiots', in which case... ouch.

Also, newsflash. I know very few games need any type of romance. Honestly, I've been hoping for a totally platonic Fire Emblem game for a long time now. I know that will never happen, especially considering the direction the series seems to be taking, and I know that sounds like an odd thing for me to hope for, but hey a man can dream!

but how can i play waifu emblem if there aren't any waifu's

I'd be cool with a platonic emblem. I'd be cool with anything as long as they kept casual mode for this filthy casual.

Adding onto this, there are two characters who are massive fans of same sex couples (Soleil and Eponine respectively) and I doubt that they're exactly... helping.

Writing stereotypical fans of yaoi/yuri doesn't really do much in the way of commenting on actual gay people though. Eponine could be a shot at people that DO fetishize gay romance to an insane degree. Though personally, I see little difference in people that are a fan of het or homo pairings, they're fetishized similarly, so I personally find that making fun of those types (yuri/yaoi fans) to be pretty hypocritical, but that's neither here nor there at the moment.

Soleil has a different problem where she's written as the Japanese stereotype for a lesbian, only instead of it being treated as a "phase" it's just straight out not taken all that seriously. In at least two supports (Kamui's and Gurei's) they find her flirting with women to be completely non-threatening to their relationship, they are only worried about her talking to other guys.