Which do you like better, western RPGs or Japanese RPGs?

[vonretic]

It's hard to say, both are starting to seriously screw up big time. They are starting to have the same kind of crap. Railroading, bad writing, dialogue for nothing, shitty NPC. Heck, even the plots seems shitty.

Eh, voting for WRPG. Those are mostly superior in everyway generally-speaking, better story, customizations, more freedom. Heck, better characters too. Though like I said, they are starting to screw up.

Generally speaking, JRPG tend to be the oposite, railroading, one-dimensional characters, no customizations, shitty story, again, generally speaking. (EO-chan don't leave me baby ! :()

Dark Souls and co doesn't count as JRPG, since they are heavily WRPG inspired. The good ol kind of WRPG.

Starting to screw up in what way? The Withcer 3 plus Dragon Age: Inquisition are two astonishing new WRPG's that were recently released (2014-2015), they are very well crafted in every aspect. As well the latest installments of FE games (Awakening and Fates) and Xenoblade Chronicles are a very good example of great JRPG's. And I can continue with the list going on and on in both of those genres. Although I also admit that many RPG's made nowadays aren't that good as they used to be.

[Augestein]

Starting to screw up in what way? The Withcer 3 plus Dragon Age: Inquisition are two astonishing new WRPG's that were recently released (2014-2015), they are very well crafted in every aspect. As well the latest installments of FE games (Awakening and Fates) and Xenoblade Chronicles are a very good example of great JRPG's. And I can continue with the list going on and on in both of those genres. Although I also admit that many RPG's made nowadays aren't that good as they used to be.

I don't know about The Witcher 3 because I haven't played it (yet), but Inquisition does have some problems. The classes aren't entirely balanced. Tempest/Archer is stupidly OP, so is Knight Enchanter-- even after the patch, it got stronger, not weaker. The crafting system basically takes a massive dump all over the shopping that can be done and loot-- making about 95% of the loot you pick up meaningless filler to be sold for money to get more crafting gear. And a lot of the quest are pretty uninspired fetch quest that barely have any plot or have anything worth noting-- even for gear checks. The hitboxes on enemies are absolutely wretched making Nightmare almost unplayable without insane amounts of management of your teams because the AI is terrible and the disjointed hitboxes allow for sweeping attacks that hit units even when they shouldn't. There's no smart tracking on melee attacks making it difficult to tell the range of attacks-- especially problematic with other races outside of human because the hitboxes are clearly designed around humans heights. And the story is so bad that even Bioware themselves kind of hint that it could have been better. Also, the burst damage system that's used is incredible broken as having even a sliver of guard or barrier is enough to cheese bosses, which results in both the player and the enemy being placed into a rushdown fest to kill each other or the player is so obscenely tanky that the notion of dying is a matter of the player losing interest. It's not bad, but it's certainly far from astonishing.

Awakening has been argued to death about it's quality with it being extremely hit or miss. Fates I'm sure is no exception to that. Not only is Xenoblade an older game, so I don't think it's entirely right to use it as a quality of game. The types of games we've been getting for JRPGs are things like Tales of Zestria, which while not horrible, clearly have considerably less effort placed into them than older titles.

I think I liked it when RPGs were simple, yet elegant in their designs rather than trying to do a lot and not really refining any of their systems.

[secondworld]

Given the sheer amount of these games, can we really say that either side as a whole has better or worse stories?

[Jedi]

I think its pretty equal overall considering I can name a number of good examples for both.

[B.Leu]

Augestein took the words out of my mouth. And like him, I still haven't played Witcher 3, same with Xenoblade.

You know, it make me think of something, WRPG tend to be the more easy to break gameplay-wise.

Edited October 6, 2015 by B.Leu

[vonretic]

I don't know about The Witcher 3 because I haven't played it (yet), but Inquisition does have some problems. The classes aren't entirely balanced. Tempest/Archer is stupidly OP, so is Knight Enchanter-- even after the patch, it got stronger, not weaker. The crafting system basically takes a massive dump all over the shopping that can be done and loot-- making about 95% of the loot you pick up meaningless filler to be sold for money to get more crafting gear. And a lot of the quest are pretty uninspired fetch quest that barely have any plot or have anything worth noting-- even for gear checks. The hitboxes on enemies are absolutely wretched making Nightmare almost unplayable without insane amounts of management of your teams because the AI is terrible and the disjointed hitboxes allow for sweeping attacks that hit units even when they shouldn't. There's no smart tracking on melee attacks making it difficult to tell the range of attacks-- especially problematic with other races outside of human because the hitboxes are clearly designed around humans heights. And the story is so bad that even Bioware themselves kind of hint that it could have been better. Also, the burst damage system that's used is incredible broken as having even a sliver of guard or barrier is enough to cheese bosses, which results in both the player and the enemy being placed into a rushdown fest to kill each other or the player is so obscenely tanky that the notion of dying is a matter of the player losing interest. It's not bad, but it's certainly far from astonishing.

Awakening has been argued to death about it's quality with it being extremely hit or miss. Fates I'm sure is no exception to that. Not only is Xenoblade an older game, so I don't think it's entirely right to use it as a quality of game. The types of games we've been getting for JRPGs are things like Tales of Zestria, which while not horrible, clearly have considerably less effort placed into them than older titles.

I think I liked it when RPGs were simple, yet elegant in their designs rather than trying to do a lot and not really refining any of their systems.

I get what you are saying but I think in the end it is all about what everyone likes and finally it comes down to individual preferences. Xenoblade is not that old, it was released in 2010 and now there is the new 3DS version of the game, also its sequel (although I didn't played it) seems like it was good as well. Awakening + Fates is in my opinion a good example of JRPG's with their own unique style and feeling, the story is great, the characters as well, gameplay-wise too, but I guess, again, in the end it comes down to each individual preferences about the games. I consider Inquisition to be a great WRPG game (story wise, being dynamic and fluid, creating ''space" and to a certain extent giving freedom of customization to the player) even with its problems.

To be frankly with you, I didn't played any Tales games, although I plan to do so I'm not going to comment on that topic.

And please define for me what and how RPG's were elegant and simple, giving me some example of games. Like you refer to Planescape Torment RPG's style or SWKOTOR style? Or more.

Augestein took the words out of my mouth. And like him, I still haven't played Witcher 3, same with Xenoblade.

You know, it make me think of something, WRPG tend to be the more easy to break gameplay-wise.

WRPG's are more breakable because of their nature, because WRPG's tend to give the player more freedom, making them more dynamic and flexible as RPG's and as games in general. On the other side JRPG's are more direct, more linear, and you could figure as well what that means.

[Loki Laufeyson]

I honestly prefer JRPGs only because i played them a lot for so long, i got used to their formula. However, im ok with WRPGs, but havent played a whole lot of them. And playing Mass Effect with a keyboard is bullshit lemme tell ya. I think i need to experience more WRPGs. Anyone got any recommendations? I want to try Dragon Age Inquisition, but my laptop really cant run it. : (

[-Cynthia-]

Given the sheer amount of these games, can we really say that either side as a whole has better or worse stories?

They're also different types a lot of the time- WRPG stories often have choices as a key part of the storytelling experience, JRPGs are more like movies.

I generally only like WRPGs that are party based, so they're very hit or miss for me. JRPGs are more consistent, but I do miss being able to have a 'true' avatar character in them.

[Tangerine]

Honestly, JRPGs don't even compare anymore, and I say that as the admin of a JRPG forum lol. The most well received RPG series to come out of Japan in a while is a WRPG series.

I don't even think they're "degrading" in quality, I think that the criticism they receive is a result of the fanbase growing out of their immature and corny tropes and that they've hardly evolved past that. It feels like they appeal to a completely different age bracket than WRPGs on average. There are definitely some standouts that don't fit in with the rest though, it's mostly the very anime-inspired JRPGs that are terrible, looking back.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Tangerine

[Augestein]

I get what you are saying but I think in the end it is all about what everyone likes and finally it comes down to individual preferences. Xenoblade is not that old, it was released in 2010 and now there is the new 3DS version of the game, also its sequel (although I didn't played it) seems like it was good as well. Awakening + Fates is in my opinion a good example of JRPG's with their own unique style and feeling, the story is great, the characters as well, gameplay-wise too, but I guess, again, in the end it comes down to each individual preferences about the games. I consider Inquisition to be a great WRPG game (story wise, being dynamic and fluid, creating ''space" and to a certain extent giving freedom of customization to the player) even with its problems.

2010 is almost 5 years ago, going on 6. That's half of a decade and one console generation ago. The 3DS version is the same version as the Wii version, so that's not saying much. The sequel hasn't been released globally and I haven't kept up with it since it's not even released anywhere but Japan. It seems like it could be decent, but I can't say, I haven't played it. Awakening and Fates -- more so Awakening feels like a more polished version of Agarest Wars. Completely with the baby making as well-- although it's more detailed than Awakening but it's smaller scaled and the first one pans over multiple generations which is interesting but a miss overall. Inquisition isn't a bad game by any means, but it has serious problems.

To be frankly with you, I didn't played any Tales games, although I plan to do so I'm not going to comment on that topic.

Take a look at something like Vesperia, and then compare it to Zestria. Zestria, despite coming out years later, doesn't look much better, and the gameplay isn't much better in some regards (has camera problems, the party is less multiplayer friendly as a result), and still reuses models from the older game and doesn't have much of an increase in monster types or anything despite having assets that they can borrow and reuse. The amount of progress is astoundingly low for how many games there were from Vesperia to Zestria.

And please define for me what and how RPG's were elegant and simple, giving me some example of games. Like you refer to Planescape Torment RPG's style or SWKOTOR style? Or more.

Simple like say Ar Tonelico on the PS2 versus Ar Tonelico Qoga for instance, Ar Tonelico is a standard turn based RPG with a bizarre element for powering up your mages in the game, which results in a quirky plot that allows for character development between your hero and the female mage of your choice. It has a crafting system that's very simple and easy to follow-- yet it never actually overshadows purchasing items at points and even has purchasable items as a requirement for some powerful crafts anyways. The game is simple and fairly decent and last just long enough to be a fun experience. As opposed to say Qoga which tries to cram an action game, a RPG AND a rhythm game into the mix and ends up failing to deliver on the action game portion AND the rhythm game. It's just plain worse even if it's doing more than the original Ar Tonelico. My issue is that with more freedom with the technology, creators seem to focus less on what makes a game good and instead on what makes it LOOK good.

WRPG's are more breakable because of their nature, because WRPG's tend to give the player more freedom, making them more dynamic and flexible as RPG's and as games in general. On the other side JRPG's are more direct, more linear, and you could figure as well what that means.

RPGs in general are extremely prone to being broken by the nature of the creators having a nasty tendency to fall victim to power creep in games. Midgames generally tend to be the highlight of RPGs by virtue that this is usually when most RPGs are available enough to make choices, and most of them are still viable. But that's neither here nor there.

I don't even think they're "degrading" in quality, I think that the criticism they receive is a result of the fanbase growing out of their immature and corny tropes and that they've hardly evolved past that. It feels like they appeal to a completely different age bracket than WRPGs on average. There are definitely some standouts that don't fit in with the rest though, it's mostly the very anime-inspired JRPGs that are terrible, looking back.

I'm not so sure though, some of them have changed. Take a look at something like say Lufia: Rise of the Sinistrals and its DS remake Lufia: Curse of the Sinistrals for an example. The general appeal and style and ton of their games in general have shifted:

You wouldn't know it by looking, but that's supposed to be the same character... I know.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Augestein

[Knight]

I think part of the decline of JRPGs nowadays is that they're no longer the cutting-edge thing. I can't really speak for an era that I was too young to know much about, but from what I've heard and from old advertisements I've seen, during the SNES-PS1 era, JRPGs were like the best thing when it came to graphics and sound technology, writing, story, and creativity. It seems a lot of JRPGs nowadays settle only for average, the Tales series doesn't really evolve much with technology, most JRPGs never call for big budgets, and Final Fantasy, the only mega-budget JRPG series still going, is bouncing off the walls with craziness. I think that's why people liked Xenoblade, it had likely the biggest open-world on the Wii console, great soundtrack, voice acting and cutscenes, it felt like it "spared no expense," despite even that it was on an underpowered console. WRPGs as well are huge games that try to push the limits, but the JRPG genre is no longer riding that leading horse, likely because of poor sales of the genre in recent years.

[vonretic]

My issue is that with more freedom with the technology, creators seem to focus less on what makes a game good and instead on what makes it LOOK good.

I have to agree with you here. As far as I'm concerned most of the games nowadays try to appeal to the consumer with their image, instead of their essence.

I think part of the decline of JRPGs nowadays is that they're no longer the cutting-edge thing. I can't really speak for an era that I was too young to know much about, but from what I've heard and from old advertisements I've seen, during the SNES-PS1 era, JRPGs were like the best thing when it came to graphics and sound technology, writing, story, and creativity. It seems a lot of JRPGs nowadays settle only for average, the Tales series doesn't really evolve much with technology, most JRPGs never call for big budgets, and Final Fantasy, the only mega-budget JRPG series still going, is bouncing off the walls with craziness. I think that's why people liked Xenoblade, it had likely the biggest open-world on the Wii console, great soundtrack, voice acting and cutscenes, it felt like it "spared no expense," despite even that it was on an underpowered console. WRPGs as well are huge games that try to push the limits, but the JRPG genre is no longer riding that leading horse, likely because of poor sales of the genre in recent years.

There was indeed a time when especially Final Fantasy had great games and JRPG's were the RPG's to continue to improve, innovate. But now its not the same, WRPG's are more and more improving, with many WRPG's out there that are quite popular and good. I think that the major shift was made when the original XBox was released and when Morrowind came out, with BioWare as well being one of the company to continue to innovate and evolve the WRPG genre. And in my opinion WRPG's fare well when they are combined with another genre, action for example (take a look at Deus Ex franchise, SystemShock as well) and many more; because of their trait to allow the player to immerse himself in the game and in the games world, and giving more control to the player as how the story should proceed. Although I'm not saying that JRPG's fail in these (Kingdom Hearts games are also action-RPG's)

[The DanMan]

Despite fanservice and other baggage for the genre, JRPGs.

[secondworld]

Despite fanservice and other baggage for the genre, JRPGs.

Okay, can anyone help me understand how this became a universal thing for this genre, and why this fanservice mentality never seems to extend to western RPGs as well?

[The DanMan]

Okay, can anyone help me understand how this became a universal thing for this genre, and why this fanservice mentality never seems to extend to western RPGs as well?

Sexualization in media being much more rampant in Japan, in part because of companies turning to alternate ways to attract audiences. Sure, there's some of that in Western RPGs, but I'm turned off of big name WRPGs because of the need for a bunch of profanity and sex scenes (looking at you, Bioware). I guess you could say that the difference is JRPGs have it much more widespread.

[secondworld]

Sexualization in media being much more rampant in Japan, in part because of companies turning to alternate ways to attract audiences. Sure, there's some of that in Western RPGs, but I'm turned off of big name WRPGs because of the need for a bunch of profanity and sex scenes (looking at you, Bioware). I guess you could say that the difference is JRPGs have it much more widespread.

What I take issue with is people going with this idea that it's something that JRPGs, as an entire genre, just do, and that this genre is less diverse in story and themes than it actually is beyond some basic tropes that apply to more than just JRPGs.

Should western MMO RPGs count as a valid sub-genre for comparison here? Because if so then that just opens up so many more examples of the blatant, in your face kind of fanservice that gets lumped in with JRPGs all the time.

[Tamarsamar]

Going to assume this question is meant in a classic sense (or at least a very generous "cut-off" point of 2001), as the distinction seems to blur more and more as the years go by.

It's commonly said that Western RPGs were developed with emphasis on gameplay, while Eastern RPGs on story, but if you were to ask me, those elements are actually each of those respective genres weaknesses. While there are some JRPGs with a good story, they tend to be the very deserving well-recognized names in a sea of wanna-be Dragon Quest titles. Dragon Quest especially is pretty notorious for being a paragon of everything that people who hate JRPGs hate about JRPGs combined--the random encounters, the grinding, what have you. These sins, however, are infinitely more bearable (but no less annoying) in my book than the gameplay of Western RPGs--or at the very least, the ones based off of Dungeons and Dragons (a system not designed to be played as a game, which shows if you try to do so). While as a kid I was awed by the display of a game like Baldur's Gate, trying to play it myself many many years later, well . . . I've beaten several games with random encounter and grinding elements, but I can never actually get myself around to enough motivation to actually finish a game based on D&D. The real-time rolls/constant need for mashing the spacebar really drag out the non-random combat without doing it any particular favors, which is really a crime and shame, and it's shocking that the micomanaging of each party member doesn't bore everybody to tears.

The truth of the matter is, in general, Western RPGs permit a far greater depth of interaction with the game world(/lore/story), while Eastern RPGs are far more streamlined and basically built to be gamed, being just plain more fun to play as a result. There are both bad and golden apples (i.e. exceptions) on either side in these departments, but when I'm in the mood for just jumping straight into an RPG, you will almost never see me choose one of the Western variety.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Tamarsamar

[vonretic]

What I take issue with is people going with this idea that it's something that JRPGs, as an entire genre, just do, and that this genre is less diverse in story and themes than it actually is beyond some basic tropes that apply to more than just JRPGs.

Should western MMO RPGs count as a valid sub-genre for comparison here? Because if so then that just opens up so many more examples of the blatant, in your face kind of fanservice that gets lumped in with JRPGs all the time.

I don't really think that just JRPG's have fanservice. People do tend to say so because they associate the genre with anime, where in anime the fanservice is more present and most anime's come from Japan, people do tend to jump quickly to associate JRPG's with fanservice, because anime, because Japan. Mostly, fanservice in JRPG's means that boobs, ass, underwear, lingerie or "embarrassing" moments are being shown to the player, but in WRPG's as you can see if you've played them there are sex scenes even though you partake in them or they are just cutscenes, but in the end I consider those to be fanservice as well. Especially you should see the mods for Skyrim, you won't really tell the difference between porn and the latest mods. (Although those mods are made by the fans, the developers allowed them to do so. In the end this counting as well as fanservice).

[Tangerine]

You can't say fan-made mods that have pornographic content count as fanservice (the type of fanservice you're referring to anyway) because the developers allow their game to be modded lol.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Tangerine

[vonretic]

You can't say fan-made mods that have pornographic content count as fanservice (the type of fanservice you're referring to anyway) because the developers allow their game to be modded lol.

Well why not? I mean the developers clearly knew that if they allow their game to be modded something like that would happen. Maybe they didn't make it on purpose, or maybe they did, but I for sure consider it to be fanservice and I would agree to disagree with you.

[Knight]

Skyrim mods do also a bunch of other things as well, not all of it is porn. That's like selling some art supplies and calling it fanservice because people can draw boobs with it.

EDIT: Or for a video-game example, Mario Maker has fanservice because I can make a penis out of blocks.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Knight

[vonretic]

Skyrim mods do also a bunch of other things as well, not all of it is porn. That's like selling some art supplies and calling it fanservice because people can draw boobs with it.

It's like not like I don't know that; I was just explaining the mere fact the "porn" mods are a way of fanservice available in WRPG's.

[Icemario]

I know very few WRPGs, so I'm gonna say JRPGs because I clearly play those a lot more.

RPGs as a whole are still great imo.

[Knight]

But it's not the developers' intention for it to exist, it's not like they said "here are the tools, go make porn," they said "here are the tools, make whatever you want."

I mean the developers clearly knew that if they allow their game to be modded something like that would happen.

Every developer everywhere knows this because rule 34 exists.

Also, porn mods are not approved on Steam IIRC.

[vonretic]

But it's not the developers' intention for it to exist, it's not like they said "here are the tools, go make porn," they said "here are the tools, make whatever you want."

Every developer everywhere knows this because rule 34 exists.

Also, porn mods are not approved on Steam IIRC.

Yes and yes. Their intentions are not for the modders to make such mods, but to allow them to create extra content for the game. But my point is, and all I was saying is, that WRPG's have the ability to be moded and so, the modders can create fanservice through this way, when JRPG's don't present themselves with the opportunity to be modded, you see, I was just giving an simple example of how WRPG's can have in some way or another fanservice through mods. And as a matter of fact "porn" mods can be found on other sites not on Steam.

Plus mario maker is not an RPG so it doesn't fall in that category of games that I was talking about when I've said that JRPG's and WRPG's have their own unique kind of fanservice.