Serra or Lucius?

[Irysa]

How the hell is Lucius going to be promoted 4 maps after recruitment?

Maybe Loki is counting Lyn mode. Lucius can get a couple of levels there easily before being recruited in the main section of the game, so having him promoted for Dragon's Gate is quite realistic. Though Erk is probably a prefferable unit to train if you wanted to train a Magic user I guess.

Lucius's combat is kinda superfluous when you consider how unecessary it is overall, but the same could be said of Serra's healing on many maps, especially after Pris shows up. The main reason to keep using her is because she nets you easy EXP to go to Kenneth's map instead of Jerme, but she really doesn't ever need to be promoted to continue helping with that, and I pretty much always bench her once Kenneth's map comes up, and have never promoted her. Pent + Pris + Lucius has always been enough staffers for me. 10/1 Serra has like, 7 mag and 12 speed (rounding up) which is pretty mediocre, especially when you consider she loses AS even with Lightning (that's like, 11 Mt 11 AS...its borderline doubling and misses the ORKO on lots of enemies. Using Shine means she might 2HKO but wont be able to double). So you'd want to delay her promotion as long as possible, which ends up just minimising the amount of combat contributions she'll ever actually make. By the time Serra promotes and can ORKO enemies, Lucius could have been doing that for ages and easily made it to Physic.

What do you need Serra for anyway? I sort of get that you can eventually end up with a unit who ORKOs unpromoted shitters if she staff spams forever but HHM has kinda shitty deployment slots on a lot of maps, so it's not like you're desperate for units to pad your deployment.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Irysa

[Augestein]

Serra is alright, I find Lucius better though. If you promote Serra earlier, she can fight. 15/-- is okay for instance and pretty doable. Although, I usually just use Serra until a mage promotes and then drop her.

[Florete]

What do you need Serra for anyway? I sort of get that you can eventually end up with a unit who ORKOs unpromoted shitters if she staff spams forever but HHM has kinda shitty deployment slots on a lot of maps, so it's not like you're desperate for units to pad your deployment.

Well, I've been assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that this is in the absence of Priscilla, since if you have Priscilla there is really very little reason to even consider using Serra in the first place. But as far as direct competition against Lucius, I can't assume no other combatants are present, so Serra fills that healing spot while Lucius is just another okay-ish fighter.

People really overestimate how difficult it is to raise staffers. Unless you're going absolute LTC, they shouldn't be promoting (and from a level ~16+) any later than your combatants if you know what you're doing, maybe even faster if you're slow, because going slower benefits a healer more than a combatant.

Maybe Loki is counting Lyn mode. Lucius can get a couple of levels there easily before being recruited in the main section of the game, so having him promoted for Dragon's Gate is quite realistic.

Maybe if you arena abuse at Port of Badon and/or promote him at 10. Otherwise, no way. Even in my casual NM runs most units don't promote that soon.

[Baldrick]

Why staff spam any less just because you're not doing ranked? The point of my post was that you can raise a healer (two, in fact) reasonably well even while playing at a brisk pace. If you're using a healer, you might as well do what you can to raise them, right?

HHM isn't particularly brutal, you don't need two healers early on. Priscilla is better than Serra, so you might as well use her.

EDIT: If we're comparing Serra solo v Lucius solo, Lucius wins because Serra can't fight and you don't get a Guiding Ring in her join chapter. But to be serious, Lucius is arguably your best mage early because he has the highest magic growth and staff rank on promotion. Serra doesn't have anything substantial over Priscilla.

[Quintessence]

@Red Fox: not really, you can have like 2 or 3 promoted units (and good units) by Dragon's Gats. If we consider Lyn Mode, Lucius can get up to 3 levels on LHM or 4 if you kill Lundgren or the Paladin boss; so it is pretty normal that Lucius becomes beastly by Dragon's Gate. It might take more effort promoting him by Dragon's Gate (like, being strictly at lv 10 or so) if no LHM.

But, I mean, HHM isn't a tremendously aggressive mode that you need to heal every single turn or something.

[Irysa]

Well, I've been assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that this is in the absence of Priscilla, since if you have Priscilla there is really very little reason to even consider using Serra in the first place. But as far as direct competition against Lucius, I can't assume no other combatants are present, so Serra fills that healing spot while Lucius is just another okay-ish fighter.

This is somewhat faulty logic. Serra is competing with a single unit (Pris) for a single slot (Staffer) on many maps, and then has to end up competing with Pent as well (who completely wallops her so lets not go there). Lucius is competing for like, the last two deployment slots on any given map since he is not a core unit.

Like, from the point Lucius joins, Marcus, Raven (dropped eventually maybe but whatever), one or two Cavaliers are going to be a given in terms of deployment. Florina will probaly be as well if she had Lyn Mode, otherwise I find she's too much of a pain to train. Fiora is kinda meh and I usually just promote her ASAP for utility and focus on Heath as an actual combat flier, but I'll just assume those two slots are being utilised. So that's like, 6 combat units. What's left? Matthew or Legault get deployed now and then but that's not really a permanant spot. The Fighters are rubbish but I suppose one may deploy Bartre now and then to get him to the required level to recruit Karla in Complete Recruitment, but he's only showing up intermittently. The Archers are bad, the Lords are pretty bad too. There is pretty much no point in training Guy considering Raven stomps him, and Dart is pretty mediocre to bad because of accuracy problems. Canas, Erk and Lucius are definitely better than these units, and even when you account for the staffer, you usually have about 1 or 2 deployment slot lefts even with all that, so they kind of end up just being the prefferable option, especially since Kenneth's map is ideal.

When you get units like Heath, Isadora, Pent and Hawkeye you can probably assume they're getting deployed too, but the deployment slots generally increase so the Magic User is still only competing with these leftover mediocre to bad units. I suppose Louise can contest a spot because of her Pent support, and theres a case to be made for Rath and Farina too, in which case the Magic User might get shafted, but the Magic Users have been training for like half the game and have probably promoted, and you're not lacking for mounts, so they're still sort of superior than the alternatives except in specific circumstances.

Basically Canas, Erk and Lucius even in an optimal deployment structure are only really competing with each other for the last slot or two, because the rest of the potential units who will take that are just generally worse.

Maybe if you arena abuse at Port of Badon and/or promote him at 10. Otherwise, no way. Even in my casual NM runs most units don't promote that soon.

Nah come on, Lucius can get 2 or 3 levels easily in Lyn Mode, maybe even 4 if he kills Eagler or Lundgren. That puts him to level 6. Getting 4 levels over the course of potentially 5 (but more likely 4) maps only means he has to get 1 level a map. That's not difficult. Promoting units at 10 isnt a big deal either, their stats might end up not being ideal for maps like VoD or Light but you don't need them to have good stats there anyway.

I mean you say that "Serra gets you a semi decent extra combatant for free", and I question why Lucius is "not free". Lucius is not really depriving anyone important of EXP to level up and promote and be better than Serra.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Irysa

[Alastor15243]

*stifles an epic guffaw*

Ahehaheh ahem....

Lucius has a lot of advantages over Serra. But the two neednt be exclusive. (unless you want them to be)

Oh, the thing is, to avoid the boredom of having to go through the mandatory easy mode after I recently got the game again, I decided I'd do a little challenge run where I can only use the lords and the characters who showed up in Lyn's story. Since the game only allows a max of 12 characters per map (or at least at the final level), I had to drop three of them, and I chose Dorcas (that speed is atrocious, I'll just have Kent, Sain and Hector be my axe users) Wallace (no explanation necessary) and decided either Lucius or Serra. I figured since Lucius is far easier to drop completely I'd use Serra this time, but I wanted to know about future playthroughs just so I could plan ahead for my eventual attempt at HHM.

[Paper Jam]

It might not be fair to compare Serra to Lucius (at least before promotion), since they don't compete with each other for experience before promotion; Lucius' combat experience does not get in the way of Serra's healing experience, nor vice versa.

Serra does compete with Priscilla for healing experience, though. (You generally have at least one character each turn [except maybe turn 1] who isn't at full health, but you're not likely to have enough wounded to give two healers something to do every turn.) Similarly, Lucius competes with... well, practically everyone else... for combat experience, since every enemy he kills is one less that somebody else could have killed.

In most of my playthroughs, I've found that there are other combat units whom I want to get the kills more than Lucius, and so he tends not to get promoted particularly soon (if at all). I'm not particularly partial to Serra or Priscilla as healers, but Serra's ten-chapter availability advantage (5, 6, 7, 7x, 8, 9, 10, 12H, 13, and 13x) and my habit of using Heal staves at every opportunity (which is about 9 out of 10 turns) mean that I usually have her at a much higher level than Priscilla by the time I've recruited Priscilla. At that point, I find it more practical to just keep using Serra, and I generally get her up to level 20 by about chapter 23.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Paper Jam

[Shin]

Maybe if you arena abuse at Port of Badon and/or promote him at 10. Otherwise, no way. Even in my casual NM runs most units don't promote that soon.

In casual runs, XP goes to whoever. Badon has some really high levelled pirates for some reason, and Lucius can easily kill one or two of them. If you're going slowly and have Serra heal as much as she can, she could probably promote before Lucius, otherwise she's not quite as good.

[Refa]

It might not be fair to compare Serra to Lucius (at least before promotion), since they don't compete with each other for experience before promotion; Lucius' combat experience does not get in the way of Serra's healing experience, nor vice versa.

They compete with each other for promotional items, primary warp user, and are pretty redundant units after promotion.

[Augestein]

They compete with each other for promotional items, primary warp user, and are pretty redundant units after promotion.

They might compete for the promotion item itself, but they do not compete for actual roles in the units you have. Serra has a monopoly on her role when you first get her, and then competes with one healer later on. In terms of stats, Priscilla and Serra are very similar, with Serra having a level advantage but Priscilla has a movement advantage and rescue advantage, which means that Priscilla can help in rescue chains to move units around. Serra is worse than Priscilla in my opinion because the stat advantages that Serra has from levels are negligible at best and the level advantage, while there, does not override the rescuing advantage she has. If I'm locked to one healer, Serra isn't even going to be fielded after I get Priscilla.

Assuming I'm going to use Serra, her versus Lucius is a bit more balanced. Serra is far more defensive with that huge luck lead she has over him which enables her to be thrown on forest, left alone and she can come out relatively unscathed. Lucius' lame luck doesn't allow for such evade tanking with nearly as much reliability. And most of the time, I promote my healers at 15-18 rather than 20, because let's be honest, the ability to fight is far better than a couple of levels. Regardless of an early promotion or not, Serra's luck still dominates over Lucius.

You really can't go wrong with either of them.

Nah come on, Lucius can get 2 or 3 levels easily in Lyn Mode, maybe even 4 if he kills Eagler or Lundgren. That puts him to level 6. Getting 4 levels over the course of potentially 5 (but more likely 4) maps only means he has to get 1 level a map. That's not difficult. Promoting units at 10 isnt a big deal either, their stats might end up not being ideal for maps like VoD or Light but you don't need them to have good stats there anyway.

2 or 3 easily is really pushing it. His best chapter is clearly the one he joins because he's the best choice to be ferried across the mountains to fight the boss. And most Lyn chapters can be finished in like 3-5 turns without really trying. But in general, he's not going to be doing much. After that, he's a ho-hum mage that really isn't much stronger than Erk in any noteworthy ways, and Rath is actually pretty strong himself at this point. Sure he disappears from the game for awhile after Lyn mode, but we're just talking about Lyn Mode usage.

[General Horace]

I don't think there's a single nonboss enemy other than some shamans that Lucius doens't ORKO in Lyn mode. His bases are significantly better than Erk's. He gains exp pretty easily, 2 levels is pretty easy to assume.

[ruadath]

serra blows, unpromoted staff use is not very valuable in FE7 and there's no reason to deploy more than one staff user in unranked play.

What about LTC play? That's unranked and certainly multiple staff users are necessary (for endgame warping).

[General Horace]

What about LTC play? That's unranked and certainly multiple staff users are necessary (for endgame warping).

serra is literally the worst staff user for endgame warping (other than Nino and Renault)

[ruadath]

serra is literally the worst staff user for endgame warping (other than Nino and Renault)

Lapogne (or whatever his name is) saves a turn off Chapter 32 compared to you by training Serra as a warper.

[General Horace]

He one turned chapter 32? That sounds impossible.

[Irysa]

He 2 turned. His strat was different. I guess Ruadeth didn't see your v2 of that map, as Serra isn't important at all to a 2 turn. All she did was do a Rescue on Turn 1.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Irysa

[ruadath]

He one turned chapter 32? That sounds impossible.

He 2 turned. His strat was different. I guess Ruadeth didn't see your v2 of that map, as Serra isn't important at all to a 2 turn.

Oh ok, never mind. I was just going by the turn counts listed on your thread. What was your general strategy? Did you use Canas as a warper instead?

[Irysa]

It was dondon's strategy. Canas and Pent were Warpers, Pris used Rescue. Heath Rescues Hector, got Danced, was Rescue Staffed by Priscilla, moved with Hector to drop him south of the Ballista, but within 10 tiles of Limstella. Turn 2 had Pris Rescue Staff Warpers far enough forward and Canas Warped Pent near Hector, then Pent was transferred the Warp staff via trades with the Falcos, and then Pent Warped Hector to seize after Heath Brave Lanced Limstella.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Irysa

[ruadath]

It was dondon's strategy. Canas and Pent were Warpers, Pris used Rescue. Heath Rescues Hector, got Danced, was Rescue Staffed by Priscilla, moved with Hector to drop him south of the Ballista, but within 10 tiles of Limstella. Turn 2 had Pris Rescue Staff Warpers far enough forward and Canas Warped Pent near Hector, then Pent was transferred the Warp staff via trades with the Falcos, and then Pent Warped Hector to seize after Heath Brave Lanced Limstella.

In a LTC without gaidens, you don't have access to Canas. Did he need to make use of Canas' higher magic cap? If so, then it would be necessary to have Serra (or Lucius, I suppose) trained up to make up for that difference...

[General Horace]

nah, just use Erk.

[Yojinbo]

Lapogne skipped Gaiden chapters and also didn't recruit Lucies in his run so he used Serra.

[Irysa]

In a LTC without gaidens, you don't have access to Canas. Did he need to make use of Canas' higher magic cap? If so, then it would be necessary to have Serra (or Lucius, I suppose) trained up to make up for that difference...

Canas max Mag is 29 and Erk is 28. Their max Warp ranges are the same.

Also just for the record, even though Lucius's Mag Cap is lower, he still averages the highest Mag out of the three in a non rigged playthrough.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Irysa

[General Horace]

Lapogne skipped Gaiden chapters and also didn't recruit Lucies in his run so he used Serra.

Lucius is still recruitable while 6 turning chapter 17, so he could have used him regardless.

His mag cap isn't good enough to do endgame warping though.

[ruadath]

nah, just use Erk.

I think it's probably easier (and more feasible) to train Serra (who starts with D in staves) to A-rank staves than train Erk to level 10, promote him, and then take him up to A-rank in staves from D in staves. She also does it without infringing on other units' EXP gain, whereas training Erk a lot early game would hurt Eliwood/Lowen.