Project M is no more

[Knife]

I have no idea who Sami is but the fact that they were decided not to continue after having all that data for Knuckles, Lyn, and Isaac likely means they were given a C&D order by Nintendo. Why else would they stop development so suddenly, especially having all that data done? Finishing the last version would have been the perfect way to wrap up the project. Also, why are they telling people to contact their lawyer if the reason was as simple as "we want to move on"?

So then the question is why did Nintendo suddenly take an interest in issuing a C&D order to the PM team, when they've been doing it for a very long time, even more than a year past Smash 4's intial release? Most likely, one of the additions the PM team was going to add to the latest version (Isaac, Knuckles, Lyn, or Sami whoever that is) is probably going to be one of the DLC characters for Smash 4. Nintendo does not want PM to "have dibs" or put these characters in their game first. This also explains why the PM team is being so tight lipped about this, they likely know this is the reason but can't say why. They don't care much about other fangames like Smash Flash adding chars, but PM is a totally different level of fangame.

If I'm wrong, I guess we'll find out this month. I really think Isaac will be the character being added though.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Knife

[euklyd]

lol no Sami

they made knuckles the echidna to completion but not Sami

I guess now I can stop caring.

there are videos of a "working" sami, she's just not in the build

e:

(working really only means model + some minor stuff at this point, ftr; mostly snake)

I have no idea who Sami is but the fact that they were decided not to continue after having all that data for Knuckles, Lyn, and Isaac likely means they were given a C&D order by Nintendo. Why else would they stop development so suddenly, especially having all that data done? Finishing the last version would have been the perfect way to wrap up the project. Also, why are they telling people to contact their lawyer if the reason was as simple as "we want to move on"?

So then the question is why did Nintendo suddenly take an interest in issuing a C&D order to the PM team, when they've been doing it for a very long time, even more than a year past Smash 4's intial release? Most likely, one of the additions the PM team was going to add to the latest version (Isaac, Knuckles, Lyn, or Sami whoever that is) is probably going to be one of the DLC characters for Smash 4. Nintendo does not want PM to "have dibs" or put these characters in their game first. This also explains why the PM team is being so tight lipped about this, they likely know this is the reason but can't say why. They don't care much about other fangames like Smash Flash adding chars, but PM is a totally different level of fangame.

If I'm wrong, I guess we'll find out this month. I really think Isaac will be the character being added though.

shit this is a really good point; now I actually have my hopes halfway up for isaac

fuck

Edited December 2, 2015 by Euklyd

[Elieson]

Sami is from Advance Wars

[Alex95]

Personally, I've never been much of a fan of hacks or mods, but this one... I'm gonna miss hearing about it. I was looking forward to seeing what other alternate costumes they were going to add and the like. Oh, well.

[solrocknroll]

there are videos of a "working" sami, she's just not in the builde: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qDfahFXGx4(working really only means model + some minor stuff at this point, ftr; mostly snake) shit this is a really good point; now I actually have my hopes halfway up for isaacfuck

while you golden sun fans begin the futile wait I shall begin preparing for the Sami mothership to arrive

[The DanMan]

I have no idea who Sami is but the fact that they were decided not to continue after having all that data for Knuckles, Lyn, and Isaac likely means they were given a C&D order by Nintendo. Why else would they stop development so suddenly, especially having all that data done? Finishing the last version would have been the perfect way to wrap up the project. Also, why are they telling people to contact their lawyer if the reason was as simple as "we want to move on"?

So then the question is why did Nintendo suddenly take an interest in issuing a C&D order to the PM team, when they've been doing it for a very long time, even more than a year past Smash 4's intial release? Most likely, one of the additions the PM team was going to add to the latest version (Isaac, Knuckles, Lyn, or Sami whoever that is) is probably going to be one of the DLC characters for Smash 4. Nintendo does not want PM to "have dibs" or put these characters in their game first. This also explains why the PM team is being so tight lipped about this, they likely know this is the reason but can't say why. They don't care much about other fangames like Smash Flash adding chars, but PM is a totally different level of fangame.

If I'm wrong, I guess we'll find out this month. I really think Isaac will be the character being added though.

I put $4.23 on Knuckles.

[euklyd]

while you golden sun fans begin the futile wait I shall begin preparing for the Sami mothership to arrive

do you really feel the need to start shit literally any time someone mentions golden sun (or other franchises)? it's childish and tbh at this point it's literally the only thing about you that I remember. you might want to find another gimmick that's less pointlessly antagonistic.

like this thread isn't even about SSB4 DLC (or SSB4 at all)

Edited December 3, 2015 by Euklyd

[Junkhead]

If I'm not mistaken, you can't download the game on their site anymore. So uh...yeah, a lot of people won't still be able to play the game anymore (at least until some unscrupulous individuals get to uploading it elsewhere and assuming that doesn't get taken down).

Oh....well then, it's a good thing I still have it on my computer, lol.

The game will never be purged off of the internet or thousands of SD cards. PM having updates might be gone (rip the Lyn dream) but the community is the heart of the game. PM can still prove itself, even if the PMDT had to jump ship and it will return to grassroots until Nintendo stops caring again, but you know what? Melee hasn't had active patches for 13 years, alongside having ups and downs throughout the years community-wise, and look at it now. Hell, the whole professional eSports side of general competitive smash is still relatively new.

I'm not saying PM will stand up to Melee ever again, but you know what? The future is uncertain, and the game is at least in a playable and balanced state. If anything, the meta will grow even further now that constant updates are gone and characters will remain as-is for presumably forever. That is, if people still want to develop the meta. Like I said, and I'll reiterate this as much as I can: nobody knows what's in store for PM.

(,:

Probably for the best. Not gonna deny the developers were kinda good at stuff. Now they can focus on something that isn't just a worse Melee. I liked the texture and music hacks they did in Brawl. Kinda have a love/hate relationship with it since it helped kill Brawl earlier, but I guess it did give people something to play while MK was raping every other character in Brawl.

How is it anywhere close to a "worse Melee"? It's an improvement and everyone knows it. Even fanboys, but they're not willing to admit it. It's way more balanced, it doesn't revolve around the same 2 characters, has a ton more choice of characters (as if balancing wasn't enough) and the overall aesthetics are way better (although, that's definitely more of a personal thing). ZeRo himself was telling people last year/2013 in Chile to jump over to P:M, as the scene was growing and it's a great game that many can get good at (because lower difficulty curve does not mean "worse", if anything, it's actually an improvement).

And lol, MK. The biggest overstatement in Brawl. The meta never truly developed as to see your common folk, walking around, pummeling people for 0-Deaths (we call them "Ice Grabbers").

Edited December 3, 2015 by Soul o:

[Czar_Yoshi]

I can't help but notice that a few hours after this happened, brawlcustommusic became smashcustommusic. With PM dead, methinks the smash hacking community is going to start shifting to SSB4 much faster than it's been doing.

[euklyd]

it doesn't revolve around the same 2 characters

this automatically makes people take you less seriously jsyk

I can't help but notice that a few hours after this happened, brawlcustommusic became smashcustommusic. With PM dead, methinks the smash hacking community is going to start shifting to SSB4 much faster than it's been doing.

tbh I don't see SSB4 modding getting anywhere near as big as PM did. nobody's going to start such a massive project now that this happened to PM.

also I don't think people will be shifting until there's a better understanding of how to hack SSB4, and that's really only something pushed by the most skillful and knowledgeable hackers afaik (and dantarion isn't doing anything more with hacking iirc)

[Czar_Yoshi]

tbh I don't see SSB4 modding getting anywhere near as big as PM did. nobody's going to start such a massive project now that this happened to PM.

also I don't think people will be shifting until there's a better understanding of how to hack SSB4, and that's really only something pushed by the most skillful and knowledgeable hackers afaik (and dantarion isn't doing anything more with hacking iirc)

I don't think it'll grow that big either, but do keep in mind that prior to this SSB4 was ignored in part because it was less likely to attract Nintendo's attention, and that's less of a reason now.

[Jedi]

How is it anywhere close to a "worse Melee"? It's an improvement and everyone knows it. Even fanboys, but they're not willing to admit it. It's way more balanced, it doesn't revolve around the same 2 characters, has a ton more choice of characters (as if balancing wasn't enough) and the overall aesthetics are way better (although, that's definitely more of a personal thing). ZeRo himself was telling people last year/2013 in Chile to jump over to P:M, as the scene was growing and it's a great game that many can get good at (because lower difficulty curve does not mean "worse", if anything, it's actually an improvement).

PM's biggest issue is that if anyone developed any character, they instantly nerfed them, Melee has deeper mechanics than PM was ever able to have partly due to this. Also you tend to see 10 characters, not 2, maybe you haven't heard that there is a very high profile Yoshi in Melee nowadays, along with a few Samus's etc.

Actually do your research in the future.

[Comet]

soul you do know that there is a song called "meta knight da bess" for a reason, right? ICs did not beat him. he was a heavier jigglypuff with marth's sword and happened to have amazing frame data and transcendant hitboxes on almost every move he had. ICs were actually worse since watching them play is like shoving icicles in your eyes.

[euklyd]

PM's biggest issue is that if anyone developed any character, they instantly nerfed them, Melee has deeper mechanics than PM was ever able to have partly due to this.

game mechanics ≠ character qualities

melee is actually more deep than PM. not even a matter of opinion, brawl's engine messes up stuff from melee and doesn't have as much to it. think what you will though, but what i said is all that matters to me.

could it not be argued that PM's strength of depth is found in matchups and character-specific qualities, e.g., squirtle's Hydro-agua-aqua-ninjaspin-circleswirl-hitboxing-super-OMGWTF-squirtlesquad danktanking-cancelling?

[Roflolxp54]

Considering that people made other mods like Brawl Minus, I wouldn't be surprised that at some point in the future, somebody or some group of programmers would try to pick up from where PMDT left off.

But all the same, it's sad that PM's development got shut down though for the forseeable future, 3.6 is now the definitive version of PM.

[Comet]

maybe. i don't think more matchups = more depth, just "more" content.

[Deviddo]

My condolences to all of the Project M fans. I didn't partake in it myself but I know just how loved it was by the Smash community.

[Knife]

Oh....well then, it's a good thing I still have it on my computer, lol.

(,:

How is it anywhere close to a "worse Melee"? It's an improvement and everyone knows it. Even fanboys, but they're not willing to admit it. It's way more balanced, it doesn't revolve around the same 2 characters, has a ton more choice of characters (as if balancing wasn't enough) and the overall aesthetics are way better (although, that's definitely more of a personal thing). ZeRo himself was telling people last year/2013 in Chile to jump over to P:M, as the scene was growing and it's a great game that many can get good at (because lower difficulty curve does not mean "worse", if anything, it's actually an improvement).

And lol, MK. The biggest overstatement in Brawl. The meta never truly developed as to see your common folk, walking around, pummeling people for 0-Deaths (we call them "Ice Grabbers").

The worse Melee thing is just my opinion. I doubt my mind would change on this.

Umm... MK was definitely not an overstatement. Ice Climbers were worse, at least MK had 10 different ways to kill you. The competitive meta would have been 100x better if both these characters were banned early on. Ice Climber meta wasn't developed for a while so that got overlooked, but by 2010 when everyone wanted to ban MK (and rightfully so) it was too late. 80% of top players either mained him or pocketed him and strongly opposed his ban by boycotting MK banned events. TOs eventually had to cave in because top players stopped going to events.

Had Diddy not been nerfed, he would have headed in the same direction. The balance in Smash 4 is just fine right now and while Sheik is running amok, her strength and popularity levels are nowhere near Brawl MK. So MK definitely was not an exaggeration, he was simply broken compared to the rest of the cast. But I guess this has nothing to do with Project M.

I'll let it go though, since you're a Sothe fan ;)

Relevant:

Edited December 3, 2015 by Knife

[blyegg]

https://www.reddit.com/r/NewPMDT/comments/3v95nf/in_response_to_strong_bad_and_the_old_pmdt_as/

"Project M is the spiritual successor to Melee, and Evolution will be the spiritual successor to PM"

So I guess we have one final patch of PM, and then the new project 'Evolution' will begin. Kinda sad to see them leave the PM name but it's cool that it will be continued. ;~; I enjoyed playing it as a filthy casual with friends and family so I'm really happy to know it isn't going to die now. Lyn hype

[euklyd]

https://www.reddit.com/r/NewPMDT/comments/3v95nf/in_response_to_strong_bad_and_the_old_pmdt_as/

"Project M is the spiritual successor to Melee, and Evolution will be the spiritual successor to PM"

So I guess we have one final patch of PM, and then the new project 'Evolution' will begin. Kinda sad to see them leave the PM name but it's cool that it will be continued.

the number of people talking in that thread as if things as as simple as laid out in the OP is astounding

I'm surprised there aren't any dissenters to be downvoted to hell

---

in other news, there's a post on Facebook that talks a lot more in detail about the "why" re: PM shutting down by a former PMDT member

[facebook post] (read the comments as well)

[/r/smashbros thread]

[/r/ssbpm thread]

The truth is that it has not been a responsive action, but a preventive one. Certain event (which, again, doesn't involve a company contacting the PMDT) made the members fear a legal problem if the project kept on.

(but read the entire post, pls)

on yet another note, Strong Bad made a post on SmashBoards about this stuff and how anything further cannot be treated as PM and needs to be its own thing. that's like, a no brainer, but a lot of people don't seem to get it.

in other words, it also presents a p solid case for why "Evolution" or whatever it is will not and should not take off as A Big Thing

EDIT: dondon why do you use caps and punctuation and shit on reddit but not here?

Edited December 3, 2015 by Euklyd

[dondon151]

well people wouldn't take my posts seriously if i didn't punctuate on reddit

and the only people here whom i care about taking me seriously don't care about my punctuation

anyway i'm not satisfied by mewtwo2000 and strongbad's posts because they raise more questions than they answer

Edited December 3, 2015 by dondon151

[euklyd]

ok that makes sense...I guess I do that as well actually
shit

imo at the very least the questions that mewtwo2000 answers are important (it's not about moving to a new project, or about getting an actual C&D, etc etc, it's about plain-old fear of potentialities)
what those were and how they came to be concerned about them are of course important, but at least we're not speculating about all that other stuff anymore
I don't think strongbad's post is about answering questions? it looked like it was just "hey don't fragment stuff"

idk I'm not sure what the point is of pressing them further, beyond satisfying our own curiosity

e: I take it back; finding out the implications it has on other mods and whatnot is also important (and probably other things as well but right now I just want to sleep)

MORE IMPORTANT EDIT: someone in the reddit thread pointed out a connection to a previously published article that explains everything, like holy shit. idk why none of us put 2 and 2 together...

Edited December 3, 2015 by Euklyd

[Czar_Yoshi]

game mechanics ≠ character qualities

I assume Jedi was talking about Melee having a more advanced metagame, not more advanced mechanics. Individual buffs and nerfs don't have anything to do with game mechanics, but they do influence (and mainly slow down) the development of refined playstyles.

Melee is a very old, very good game with well-established methods of play. I have absolutely no problem with preferences for the Old Ways and people who would rather keep playing the game the way it's always been played. Just don't get confused over why you like what you like. And if I'm wrong about that and there really is some massive gameplay gulf between the two (I like to think I'm good enough at both to have noticed it if there was), I'd appreciate someone explaining specifically what it is, and not just "Melee has more advanced mechanics".

Umm... MK was definitely not an overstatement. Ice Climbers were worse, at least MK had 10 different ways to kill you.

10? MK's one and only method of dispatching his opponents was to exist.

[euklyd]

dondon does this answer your questions

(other people should obviously read it as well)

it's not 100% confirmed but like, it looks pretty plausible

edit: mods took it down for a reason, so removing the link I guess? the tl;dr is that a PMDT member essentially confirmed that

- they were contacted by a Trustworthy Figure (only 2 PMDT members knew who)

- saying that Nintendo had active plans to sue them for bajillions of dollars if they released any more content,

- and how that would work (15k per line of code changed)

- they contacted a lawyer and he confirmed that they could be hit with that

- they purged wiiztek early because he leaks fucking everything

Edited December 3, 2015 by Euklyd

[Jedi]

I assume Jedi was talking about Melee having a more advanced metagame, not more advanced mechanics. Individual buffs and nerfs don't have anything to do with game mechanics, but they do influence (and mainly slow down) the development of refined playstyles.

Melee is a very old, very good game with well-established methods of play. I have absolutely no problem with preferences for the Old Ways and people who would rather keep playing the game the way it's always been played. Just don't get confused over why you like what you like. And if I'm wrong about that and there really is some massive gameplay gulf between the two (I like to think I'm good enough at both to have noticed it if there was), I'd appreciate someone explaining specifically what it is, and not just "Melee has more advanced mechanics"

I'm not even a big fan of Melee, by any stretch of the word, but part the reason Melee has a deeper meta game other than its older, is that PM (and Smash 4 as much as I love it), change on a patchly basis which utterly changes quite a few things, so people are too busy adjusting to changes and are unable to refine what they have actually learned.

Melee, has a huge learning curve even compared to PM, there are an incredible amount of Advanced Techniques, one of which was just discovered this year. Sakurai was in a different mindset when he made Melee, than when he made Brawl and beyond and even PM's team couldn't fully replicate Melee in PM like they had originally planned, and not to mention some of their bizarre mechanics changes on characters (Looking at you PM Ganondorf). PM can't replicate everything done in Melee because people are still discovering things in Melee. Not to mention they tried to make everyone like Melee Fox, to varying results.

I'm personally someone who prefers Smash 4 overall though. Which makes some people want me to burn in hell.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Jedi