So... Fates was just Rated by the ESRB

[The DanMan]

...And the ESRB site still hasn't updated. 72 hours later. What's taking them so long?

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

If we had a crazy abusive stalker and a crazy psycho who loves killing in Awakening, then I don't get why Eponine' stupid antics should be removed: it's harmless because it's done in such an exaggerated way you know it's not real, people in real life hardly act like this.

Maybe toned down a bit, I dunno, but removing it completely seems to be something done just to not offend people.

Also, it fits because this fandom always had fujoshi and some of them can be pretty vocal (my younger self included in regards to Ike x Boyd <3). It's not even done in a harmful, offensive way, it's simply very silly.

Yeah, we could say it's boring, repetitive and dumb (like many character gimmicks), but I wouldn't say it's as horrible and problematic as some people say.

I'd worry about what they will change to her father instead, he says some things that are pure BDSM rape fantasy, but everybody is too busy praising him because of his tragic past life and sexiness... with a tragic backstory and good looks, we can overlook everything, right?:/

Maybe you see too much of your younger selves in Eponine!

Honestly, this game has a lot of messed up crap (for the western market) but Epo is not one of them.

[Neofranky]

If they all had hemophilia there wouldn't be any royal families left today. Hemophilia only spread through European nobility because of Victoria and her massive amount of children who all wed into important royal families.

You are severly exaggerating the amount of incest in olden times. Sure, close cousin marriages happened from time to time, but they still needed the acceptance of the pope. There definitly was a stigma against incest in europe, it did not suddenly jump into existence the instant genetics were discovered. One of the most commonly used reasons for Annulment was 'consanguinity' or "I guess we are too closely related after all. haha my bad", which was mostly an excuse, but still seen as a valid argument. There was also a different understanding of incest than there is today. For instance, Henry VII. of England had a lot of trouble getting his son (the infamous Henry Number 8) and Catherine of Aragon married, because she had already been married to his first son. Marrying your brother-in-law was seen as incest.

I'll give you second cousins, but first cousins and aunt/nephew uncle/niece didn't happen as often as most people think (the Habsburg where an extreme example and shouldn't be seen as the norm). Incest between Brother and sister was seen as just as repulsive as it is today.

And Fates does it really, really badly anyway. It's never even used for dramatic purposes, it's just there to cater to some people's fetish.

Hemophillia isn't all that deadly.

Yeah, perhaps "Drama" wasn't the wisest word to use, because thinking about it twice there is actually very little incest beyond Kamui and Aqua being first cousins, and him/her being half siblings with Sakura and Takumi. And even then one would have to argue how valid it is all when Kamui is the offspring of a goddamn dragon god. I mean did Mikoto even need to have sex with the thing to conceive and all? Isn't Anankos/Hydra supposed to be invisible or something too? Besides this time around the 3rd route is gonna be available from the day 1, no need to wait and all for any revelations.

Still I think the incestuous undertones add flavor to the story, no need to neuter it any more than it already is. Fetish, pandering or not, it's not really a big deal.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Neofranky

[Nanima]

Hemophillia isn't all that deadly.

Yeah, perhaps "Drama" wasn't the wisest word to use, because thinking about it twice there is actually very little incest beyond Kamui and Aqua being first cousins, and him/her being half siblings with Sakura and Takumi. And even then one would have to argue how valid it is all when Kamui is the offspring of a goddamn dragon god. I mean did Mikoto even need to have sex with the thing to conceive and all? Isn't Anankos/Hydra supposed to be invisible or something too? Besides this time around the 3rd route is gonna be available from the day 1, no need to wait and all for any revelations.

Still I think the incestuous undertones add flavor to the story, no need to neuter it any more than it already is. Fetish, pandering or not, it's not really a big deal.

Depends on how much of it and what kind you inherit. With the one Alexei Romanov had you were certainly not going to get very old back in the days before modern medicine.

Also Sakura and Takumi aren't Kamui's half-siblings. That might be what some wish were true, in hopes that there wouldn't be any S-ranks involving them at all. They are children of Sumeragi and Ikona, just like Ryouma and Hinoka. The only actual incest is between Kamui and Aqua, Leon's (unrequited and hidden) incestuous feelings towards Camilla, and any potential S-ranks you can have between child characters that are also cousins (Grey and Midoriko always being cousins).

[NekoKnight]

If we had a crazy abusive stalker and a crazy psycho who loves killing in Awakening, then I don't get why Eponine' stupid antics should be removed: it's harmless because it's done in such an exaggerated way you know it's not real, people in real life hardly act like this.

Maybe toned down a bit, I dunno, but removing it completely seems to be something done just to not offend people.

A lot of people disliked Tharja for being an abusive stalker.

I think the problem with this attitude is that it can apply to anything. Incest? It's not real guys, chill! Pedophilia? They're just cute anime girls, not real people! Those sound extreme but people often use such excuses to rationalize unfortunate implications. Everything is "just a joke". "It's there to make you laugh!"

People are too afraid to take story elements seriously. Fire Emblem doesn't have a lot of self respect when childish psychopaths and sexually deviant sadists are just another "joke".

Edited December 7, 2015 by NekoKnight

[twice]

I can take it serious at times. And I also take it as a 'joke'.

[Time the Crestfallen]

A lot of people disliked Tharja for being an abusive stalker.

I think the problem with this attitude is that it can apply to anything. Incest? It's not real guys, chill! Pedophilia? They're just cute anime girls, not real people! Those sound extreme but people often use such excuses to rationalize unfortunate implications. Everything is "just a joke". "It's there to make you laugh!"

People are too afraid to take story elements seriously. Fire Emblem doesn't have a lot of self respect when childish psychopaths and sexually deviant sadists are just another "joke".

Exactly. To me, it seems like whether or not people are meant to take something seriously or not is dependent on how badly others react to it.

[Neofranky]

Depends on how much of it and what kind you inherit. With the one Alexei Romanov had you were certainly not going to get very old back in the days before modern medicine.

Also Sakura and Takumi aren't Kamui's half-siblings. That might be what some wish were true, in hopes that there wouldn't be any S-ranks involving them at all. They are children of Sumeragi and Ikona, just like Ryouma and Hinoka. The only actual incest is between Kamui and Aqua, Leon's (unrequited and hidden) incestuous feelings towards Camilla, and any potential S-ranks you can have between child characters that are also cousins (Grey and Midoriko always being cousins).

Now you made me want to see the Grey and Midoriko supports to see if they allude to this. Still, now, why do people complain about incest if we don't even get half-siblings? I mean you could Marry Morgan to her aunt or uncle just fine in Awakening, I just hope they don't pull a "Companions" on Kamui and Aque (or should I say, "Corrin and Azura"). Marrying first cousins is, to this day, legal in several places.

A lot of people disliked Tharja for being an abusive stalker.

I think the problem with this attitude is that it can apply to anything. Incest? It's not real guys, chill! Pedophilia? They're just cute anime girls, not real people! Those sound extreme but people often use such excuses to rationalize unfortunate implications. Everything is "just a joke". "It's there to make you laugh!"

People are too afraid to take story elements seriously. Fire Emblem doesn't have a lot of self respect when childish psychopaths and sexually deviant sadists are just another "joke".

But this IS fiction, if it's not here then where else can things go wild? Let the fantasy world remain fantastic, though if you ask me things like incest, sadistic soldiers, war crimes, and underage marriages make this world more realistic, if a bit cynical.

What pedophillia? IRL there are 13 year olds or less who are married and have kids, and that may be morally wrong to some, but it's fine with others and who are we to judge when we don't even attempt to put ourselves in their situation.

Let Tharja be a goddamn abusive stalker, that makes her a much more colorful character than if she were not, it's not like she's hurting anyone real. If that doesn't agree with some or trigger mommy issues to others, then that's an entirely personal problem and thus irrelevant.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Neofranky

[Time the Crestfallen]

Now you made me want to see the Grey and Midoriko supports to see if they allude to this. Still, now, why do people complain about incest if we don't even get half-siblings? I mean you could Marry Morgan to her aunt or uncle just fine in Awakening, I just hope they don't pull a "Companions" on Kamui and Aque (or should I say, "Corrin and Azura"). Marrying first cousins is, to this day, legal in several places.

Grey and Midoriko will probably be listed as companions, but I doubt it'll happen for Corrin and Azura since they only learn that they're cousins in one or two lines of dialogue that have no impact on the story that can be easily changed.

[nordopolica]

No 'companions' because there are no relationship markers this time but the supports will probably be changed to indicate a less-than-explicit romantic interaction, like Lucina and Owain's. Kamui and Aqua's will likely stay the same given it's not that big of a plot point, you will only find out about it in 1/3 routes, and it's likely going to be a super popular pairing for male avatars.

[Neofranky]

Don't you know guys, starting a new family with your own family is the purest form of love.

[NekoKnight]

Exactly. To me, it seems like whether or not people are meant to take something seriously or not is dependent on how badly others react to it.

Hmm, not quite. People can take offense to practically anything so that's not the proper metric to whether something should be taken seriously or not. It really depends on the writing and context of how these elements show up. The one-sided romance between Priscilla and Raven is to characterize Priscilla as having a childish and naive wish. Incest in Fates is fetishized and trivialized.

Let's compare two characters. Henry and Pieri. Both are amoral and have child-like personalities. So why can I treat Henry as an amusing character and Pieri as a legitimate psychopath? While Henry often comments about murder and bloodshed, it's usually a theoretical and an over the top reaction. It's dark humor. There is nothing theoretical about Pieri murdering innocents for fun. She's a legitimately bad person and it reflects badly on Marx.

EDIT: If by "how others react to it" refers to other characters in the game, then I'll agree with your point.

What pedophillia? IRL there are 13 year olds or less who are married and have kids, and that may be morally wrong to some, but it's fine with others and who are we to judge when we don't even attempt to put ourselves in their situation.

Let Tharja be a goddamn abusive stalker, that makes her a much more colorful character than if she were not, it's not like she's hurting anyone real. If that doesn't agree with some or trigger mommy issues to others, then that's an entirely personal problem and thus irrelevant.

lol, I don't even know where to start with you.

Edited December 8, 2015 by NekoKnight

[Neofranky]

lol, I don't even know where to start with you.

You are from a first world country, aren't you?

[Time the Crestfallen]

Hmm, not quite. People can take offense to practically anything so that's not the proper metric to whether something should be taken seriously or not. It really depends on the writing and context of how these elements show up. The one-sided romance between Priscilla and Raven is to characterize Priscilla as having a childish and naive. Incest in Fates is fetishized and trivialized.

Let's compare two characters. Henry and Pieri. Both are amoral and have child-like personalities. So why can I treat Henry as an amusing character and Pieri as a legitimate psychopath? While Henry often comments about murder and bloodshed, it's usually a theoretical and an over the top reaction. It's dark humor. There is nothing theoretical about Pieri murdering innocents for fun. She's a legitimately bad person and it reflects badly on Marx.

EDIT: If by "how others react to it" refers to other characters in the game, then I'll agree with your point.

That is partially what I meant, but I also meant it in terms of real-life. Take Tharja for example. While she does have her humorous moments, she's clearly not a 'joke' character like Henry is. Maybe I missed the point, but Tharja's avatar-obsession seemed like an attempt to endear her to the player that fell flat on it's face as a number of people found the stalking creepy. Not to mention her rather parental/domestic abuse (see Noire's support with her father, in which Tharja still uses her daughter as a guinea pig for hexes and the father talking to her about it gets him hexed as well). If everyone found these actions legitimately endearing, than Tharja's fans would all be celebrating how much of a wonderful character she was unironically. However, because people have been pointing out that, occasional heartwarming moment aside, Tharja is by all means a terrible person, well...

Let Tharja be a goddamn abusive stalker, that makes her a much more colorful character than if she were not, it's not like she's hurting anyone real. If that doesn't agree with some or trigger mommy issues to others, then that's an entirely personal problem and thus irrelevant.

[nyainou]

I don't think there's really a problem with characters like Tharja existing. Yep, it adds diversity to the cast. The real problem is in how they're presented. Yep, Tharja was designed and presented in an "endearing" way, and it worked. Lots of people like her. Lots of people like Eponine, too, because of how she's presented. There's just. So many different ways to portray a stalking abuser and a yaoi fangirl, and how you show them off mostly determines how people will react to them. Its not wrong to have abusive characters, its just questionable to portray them as someone we should like. I think Walhart/Emmeryn are good examples of this. They're both noble people with good intentions; we were just shown that Emm is the goodone, while Walhart is bad. I feel like maybe you could easily switch the two. Walhart is a brave conqueror fighting for his country's sake and to prevent Grima's resurrection; Emm is negligent and stubborn for refusing to fight, when fighting back is what her country needs the most. Seee what I meaaan? If what I said managed to make any sense, anyway.

[eclipse]

Mainstream games are held to a different standard as the audience isn't as niche, it's much larger. Thanks to Awakening the FE Brand is at an all time high and far more will play it than those things you listed. The ages of the audiences will differ as well taste compared to a much smaller audience who're of similar mindset.

It's why, say, Tifa in FF7:Remake isn't gonna be sex crazed or randomly tearing her clothes off. Heck, I bet her redesign will cause a lot of talk as she may very well be somewhat more covered up. After all, there are those STILL QQing about Tifa's boobs being smaller in Advent Children when they're still huge.

Her boobs were only stupid huge in the FMV's because of the Technological limitations at the time. Her art in the game itself had her boobs appear much smaller than the FMV stuff by far.

Or because Tifa was never like that.

For something more mainstream, Cloud of Darkness from Dissidia (and in the FF 3 remake, IIRC) wears a lot less than most of Fates' cast. Lightning wasn't exactly Ms. Covered Up in Lightning Returns. Hell, even some of the Pokemon games had some screwed-up things going on in there (see: some of the Ghost Pokemon entries), and that's rated lower than Fates!

In other words, I still think the censorship paranoia is misplaced.

[Crushingon]

That is partially what I meant, but I also meant it in terms of real-life. Take Tharja for example. While she does have her humorous moments, she's clearly not a 'joke' character like Henry is. Maybe I missed the point, but Tharja's avatar-obsession seemed like an attempt to endear her to the player that fell flat on it's face as a number of people found the stalking creepy. Not to mention her rather parental/domestic abuse (see Noire's support with her father, in which Tharja still uses her daughter as a guinea pig for hexes and the father talking to her about it gets him hexed as well). If everyone found these actions legitimately endearing, than Tharja's fans would all be celebrating how much of a wonderful character she was unironically. However, because people have been pointing out that, occasional heartwarming moment aside, Tharja is by all means a terrible person, well...

I disagree greatly on the "Fell flat on it's face" part. Particularly me and the Max Factory figure sitting on my desk. I think it's just you and your kindred minded friends who dislike her. I don't think she's a terrible person entirely either, She's one of the few mothers who tell their future children that she outright loves them, she shows a lot of compassion in her supports with Nowi, Lon'qu and Libra too. I think it's very bold of you to judge whether she's good or bad, as if you were a sinless person.

I think what that guy was trying to reach is that it's pointless to "prove" that she's a bad person when in the end of the day that wouldn't change much about her.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

while i don't like Tharja or her personality, i don't really think she's a completely awful character and works with awakening's setting of "everything is really light hearted and comical because there are never any consequences for the actions of the main characters and everyone can survive"

compared to...lets say Marty for the Lisa series who is a Neglects his children, corrupts them, beats them, and rapes them when he does pay attention to them. He is never portrayed in a positive light except a "redemption attempt" which depending on the player's views, he's either irredeemable but he honestly wants to make amends, or he's faking it so his now bad ass son won't kill him.

Tharja has nothing on this other fictional character, so i think she, while bad, shouldn't be taken seriously because the game doesn't take her seriously, like Lisa takes Marty seriously.

EDIT: i should also mention that the Lisa series is extremely dark and typically has game play consequences for story actions, so the character of Marty fits his world.

Edited December 8, 2015 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[Time the Crestfallen]

I disagree greatly on the "Fell flat on it's face" part. Particularly me and the Max Factory figure sitting on my desk. I think it's just you and your kindred minded friends who dislike her. I don't think she's a terrible person entirely either, She's one of the few mothers who tell their future children that she outright loves them, she shows a lot of compassion in her supports with Nowi, Lon'qu and Libra too. I think it's very bold of you to judge whether she's good or bad, as if you were a sinless person.

I think what that guy was trying to reach is that it's pointless to "prove" that she's a bad person when in the end of the day that wouldn't change much about her.

First of all, you'll note that I said 'a number of people' instead of 'everyone'. I'm in no way that she's saying that she has no fans, but she's a divisive character. This isn't inherently a bad thing, but she's divisive for all the wrong reasons i.e. is her attitude towards the Avatar endearing or off-putting, her relationship with Noire and so on. I will admit that I may be a little bias in my opinions because she's a walking check-list of every trait I don't like in a character and there's enough evidence for her to be both a good or a bad person, but my view is of the latter and I apologise if I came across as bias/hostile.

Second of all, while she does have her touching moments, she also has her bad ones, like in her support with Frederick when she decides to curse him as punishment for making her participate in the mandatory training sessions. Or when she states in her support with Libra that "No curse is without danger. There's always a risk of harm- to body AND to soul" when earlier she said that her usual method of testing whether or not curses work is to cast it on someone and see if it sticks. Or when (bearing in mind the above quote) she uses Noire as a guinea pig for her curses and curses her husband as well when he asks her to stop (from Noire's support with her father).

Thirdly, maybe I missed that, but my interpretation of his argument was that more or less 'it's just a game, so stop complaining', which is an argument that I've seen used very frequently in the absence of any other argument, so maybe I had a bit of a knee-jerk reaction so again, I apologise for that. However, I'm sick of seeing that argument used to dismiss valid criticisms of a character. If I was entertained by Tharja, than I wouldn't have any problems with her (one of my favourite cinema characters is Hans Landa, a goddamn SS Colonel, but Waltz player the character so well that I didn't mind that much), but I personally didn't find her entertaining, so that just leaves me with a creepy, player-worshiping (potential) child/domestic abuser who acts a jerk for the majority of her on screen time.

[Crushingon]

Is it really right to call Tharja an "Abusive Mother" when she doesn't really hurt her children? She just practices minor hexes with them, she never scars them physically or anything. A big part of Noire's personality might also be because of the dark future she grew up with rather than solely her mother's influence.

[eclipse]

I could probably write a mini-essay about Tharja. But this is not the topic to do so. If you guys feel like it, continue this via PM/make a topic in the Awakening subforum.

[Crushingon]

First of all, you'll note that I said 'a number of people' instead of 'everyone'. I'm in no way that she's saying that she has no fans, but she's a divisive character. This isn't inherently a bad thing, but she's divisive for all the wrong reasons i.e. is her attitude towards the Avatar endearing or off-putting, her relationship with Noire and so on. I will admit that I may be a little bias in my opinions because she's a walking check-list of every trait I don't like in a character and there's enough evidence for her to be both a good or a bad person, but my view is of the latter and I apologise if I came across as bias/hostile.

Second of all, while she does have her touching moments, she also has her bad ones, like in her support with Frederick when she decides to curse him as punishment for making her participate in the mandatory training sessions. Or when she states in her support with Libra that "No curse is without danger. There's always a risk of harm- to body AND to soul" when earlier she said that her usual method of testing whether or not curses work is to cast it on someone and see if it sticks. Or when (bearing in mind the above quote) she uses Noire as a guinea pig for her curses and curses her husband as well when he asks her to stop (from Noire's support with her father).

Thirdly, maybe I missed that, but my interpretation of his argument was that more or less 'it's just a game, so stop complaining', which is an argument that I've seen used very frequently in the absence of any other argument, so maybe I had a bit of a knee-jerk reaction so again, I apologise for that. However, I'm sick of seeing that argument used to dismiss valid criticisms of a character. If I was entertained by Tharja, than I wouldn't have any problems with her (one of my favourite cinema characters is Hans Landa, a goddamn SS Colonel, but Waltz player the character so well that I didn't mind that much), but I personally didn't find her entertaining, so that just leaves me with a creepy, player-worshiping (potential) child/domestic abuser who acts a jerk for the majority of her on screen time.

Well duh, everything in life has risks. Mere painkillers such as ibuprofen can kill quickly you if you're allergic. You're taking jokes as if they were grim things, and how do you know all supports were written by the same person, or if whoever wrote the supports kept everything in mind. And keep in mind SHE JUST GAVE A GODDAMN COLDS TO FREDERICK, GODDAMN IT. THAT'S AS FAR AS SHE GOES IN EVERY GODDAMN SUPPORT YOU CITE, FUCKING RUNNY NOSES, NOT EVEN A GODDAMN FEVER (which she heals, by the way). This is all a gag reel at best. This is all your own personal problem with her and you're trying to make it sound as she was the worst person in the army. I think Walmart is much worse than her.

[eclipse]

I'll give you above me a pass and assume that you didn't click Preview Post before saying that.

Take the Tharja talk to a more appropriate place

To assure that the "but I didn't check to see whether or not someone else posted" excuse doesn't come into play, I'm going to lock this topic for about five minutes.

EDIT: AND DONE!

Edited December 8, 2015 by eclipse

[guacamole]

You are from a first world country, aren't you?

Having standards and finding incest and pedophilia repulsive is something exclusive to first-worlders? That seems more insulting to everyone who isn't from one.

[Pretty_Handsome]

Whatever the case, Incest ain't good as far as Western Countries are concerned nor is pedophillia.

Incest can be fixed with dialogue changes, nothing can change the visuals of Elise and the children without a lot of work which they won't do. Awakening got away with it as the kids are "born in the far future". Morgan was the only odd case as they gave you the option to wed kids which makes no sense at all as Morgan(s) is the same age as the kids in their own timeline thus this Morgan is an impossibility.

Here the kids are born, even when Elise is still like 14, and put in a time chamber to age up for WAAAAAAR. Whatever the case, marrying Elise, that one Wind Clan Kid and the Children and getting a child IS pedobear. There's no denying it. They really dropped the ball here as they cannot even handwave it like Awakening.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Pretty_Handsome