Is it true that this game isn't selling so hot?

[The DanMan]

Also if it's on the Wii U it makes more sense to tap the FE fanbase.

Actual SMT games have as much of a home on Nintendo (read: 3DS) and as much of a connection to the Wii U as FE.

Warriors Orochi was panned, Project X zone is the definition of "average" not exceedingly great nor exceedingly bad. Just ok.

Warriors Orochi 3U has a 73 on metacritic. I wouldn't call that "panned" (and considering how predictably low Warriors games generally score, I'd peg it under "minor miracle").

[Radiant head]

Not nearly to the extent FE does. Name an SMT character in Smash Bros. The Persona fanbase, while very different from mainstream SMT's fanbase, seems to be a big part of what this game was targeting, and they're over at Playstation.

[Avk]

Clearly the game could have sold 10 copies and the same people would be rushing to say it doesn't mean anything. So...

The sales numbers aren't really the problem here, your arguments are just flawed. The point you're trying to get at "the game is not really appealing to FE and SMT fans" isn't especially wrong, but the way you're getting to it is.

[ckc22]

The sales numbers aren't really the problem here, your arguments are just flawed. The point you're trying to get at "the game is not really appealing to FE and SMT fans" isn't especially wrong, but the way you're getting to it is.

Sales are a symptom of exactly what I'm pointing out.

Edited January 6, 2016 by ckc22

[The Geek]

There is no correlation between sales and the quality of a game or how well it is received.

There are really well received games that sell poorly (ie: Xenoblade Chronicles, Okami, Psychonauts, etc.)

There are poorly received games that sell really well (ie: most AAA titles, cheap licensed games, etc.)

[Phoenix_Kensai]

Has it been confirmed that the game is being localized? I thought I remembered Nintendo of America showing it off, but refusing to comment on whether or not they were planning to bring it over.

I'm hoping I'm wrong, though, since I've been worried that the Japanese sales will prevent it from seeing release over here. A digital-only release would be unfortunate, but much better than none at all (and I'll probably have to get the digital version anyway).

[twice]

Well I remember seeing them play it at E3 (Treehouse). But it was still in Japanese... But I don't see why they wouldn't localize it.

[Aiddon]

Has it been confirmed that the game is being localized?

The fact that it made its debut on an American Direct is your answer.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Aiddon

[Captain Karnage]

the only thing that worries me about the locialization that we might not get physical copies

[ckc22]

There is no correlation between sales and the quality of a game or how well it is received.

There are really well received games that sell poorly (ie: Xenoblade Chronicles, Okami, Psychonauts, etc.)

There are poorly received games that sell really well (ie: most AAA titles, cheap licensed games, etc.)

I haven't attempted to make a link between the quality of the game and its sales at all.

I have pointed out several times a link between sales of hte game and its popularity.

[angienessyo]

the only thing that worries me about the locialization that we might not get physical copies

I'm not terribly worried. It is Atlus so it's possible we could get a small fancy Limited Edition release. They do it for everything.

[Senario]

I haven't attempted to make a link between the quality of the game and its sales at all.

I have pointed out several times a link between sales of hte game and its popularity.

With no supporting evidence to back that claim.

Using the sales of two mainstream games, that aren't even on the same system as this game, doesn't come remotely close to proving anything.

Bayonetta 2 also didn't sell well at all and it was universally accepted as a great game.

[ckc22]

With no supporting evidence to back that claim.

Using the sales of two mainstream games, that aren't even on the same system as this game, doesn't come remotely close to proving anything.

Bayonetta 2 also didn't sell well at all and it was universally accepted as a great game.

No "supporting evidence" would satisfy you so it would be foolish to even try.

If you honestly believe this game did everything right and is what SMT and FE fans wanted good for you - there are thousands of forum posts and comments that indicate otherwise, and the sales certainly seem to back that up.

[Senario]

No "supporting evidence" would satisfy you so it would be foolish to even try.

If you honestly believe this game did everything right and is what SMT and FE fans wanted good for you - there are thousands of forum posts and comments that indicate otherwise, and the sales certainly seem to back that up.

Actually no, it wouldn't be foolish because you are making assumptions on what would/wouldn't convince me. You make claims and do not support them with appropriate evidence showing causation rather than correlation. It is literally like talking to somebody who is uneducated and doesn't understand basic logic. How about this, you link me the "thousands" Plural, of UNIQUE forum posts or you find me a poll showing not only the hate but also those that are neutral and like the game. Sample size is important so it needs to be in the thousands of unique replies, otherwise small deviations skew the data way too much. A significant majority need to be in the "hate" group because neutral doesn't count for one side or the other. Reminder: you have to show the intent to buy or not buy and if they have a Wii U or not. This is to show whether the Wii U is the contributing factor to people not getting the game as opposed to just being a fan of the games individually.

Here is an argument with evidence to back it up and an appropriate conclusion. Bayonetta 1 during its launch week sold about 200k while Bayonetta 2 in its launch week sold about 38k, while these numbers are depressing it is unreasonable and impossible to conclude a causation as to what are the reasons for the low sales of Bayonetta 2. Some possible explainations are that people did not want bayonetta 2 or they didn't have nor want to buy the system it was on (since it was on a different system). Reported by gamasutra for Bayo1 and Gamespot for bayonetta 2.

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=25963

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/despite-glowing-bayonetta-2-reviews-sales-in-japan/1100-6422548/

Of course you're free to ignore all this, but I think most logical people would see you as somebody who clearly doesn't even know how to back up your claim in an intelligent and fair manner. Telling me to "look it up" means you actually don't have evidence to support your claim that you would be ok with sharing.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Senario

[The DanMan]

I'm not terribly worried. It is Atlus so it's possible we could get a small fancy Limited Edition release. They do it for everything.

Ah... the Treehouse said at E3 they were localizing it.

That was half a year ago... .

[ckc22]

Actually no, it wouldn't be foolish because you are making assumptions on what would/wouldn't convince me. You make claims and do not support them with appropriate evidence showing causation rather than correlation. It is literally like talking to somebody who is uneducated and doesn't understand basic logic. How about this, you link me the "thousands" Plural, of UNIQUE forum posts or you find me a poll showing not only the hate but also those that are neutral and like the game. Sample size is important so it needs to be in the thousands of unique replies, otherwise small deviations skew the data way too much. A significant majority need to be in the "hate" group because neutral doesn't count for one side or the other. Reminder: you have to show the intent to buy or not buy and if they have a Wii U or not. This is to show whether the Wii U is the contributing factor to people not getting the game as opposed to just being a fan of the games individually.

Here is an argument with evidence to back it up and an appropriate conclusion. Bayonetta 1 during its launch week sold about 200k while Bayonetta 2 in its launch week sold about 38k, while these numbers are depressing it is unreasonable and impossible to conclude a causation as to what are the reasons for the low sales of Bayonetta 2. Some possible explainations are that people did not want bayonetta 2 or they didn't have nor want to buy the system it was on (since it was on a different system). Reported by gamasutra for Bayo1 and Gamespot for bayonetta 2.

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=25963

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/despite-glowing-bayonetta-2-reviews-sales-in-japan/1100-6422548/

Of course you're free to ignore all this, but I think most logical people would see you as somebody who clearly doesn't even know how to back up your claim in an intelligent and fair manner. Telling me to "look it up" means you actually don't have evidence to support your claim that you would be ok with sharing.

So besides the part where all your posts are rude and flame-filled and totally out of proportion to anything that I've stated.... I've also never claimed anything I say to be 100% undeniable Truth with a capital T. Everyone in this thread is theorizing, including you - my theories just happen not to agree with yours so instead of having a discussion you've instead decided to call me : illogical, stupid, uneducated, and unfair.

Basically the only evidence you want that would convince you is impossible to gather - so basically that's the exact same thing.

#keeptrolling

Edited January 6, 2016 by ckc22

[Soapbar]

So besides the part where all your posts are rude and flame-filled and totally out of proportion to anything that I've stated.... I've also never claimed anything I say to be 100% undeniable Truth with a capital T. Everyone in this thread is theorizing, including you - my theories just happen not to agree with yours so instead of having a discussion you've instead decided to call me : illogical, stupid, uneducated, and unfair.

Basically the only evidence you want that would convince you is impossible to gather - so basically that's the exact same thing.

#keeptrolling

err, what? Senario's been pretty much nothing but calm throughout this whole thread, also I haven't seen him call you anything at all really, stop projecting.

@Senario: Bayo 2 didn't sell well because the actual fanbase for Bayonetta was on Xbox and PS and even then it was pretty small-time for a multi-platform game. It's the same reason why Mass Effect 3 on Wii U sold only a quarter of a million units while the 360 version sold over 3 million alone. While yes, hard statistics don't really exist for these kinds of thing, it's hardly unreasonable to impose an educated guess about the causation for low sales numbers. This goes for Bayonetta 2 and GIR#FE

[Soapbar]

So besides the part where all your posts are rude and flame-filled and totally out of proportion to anything that I've stated.... I've also never claimed anything I say to be 100% undeniable Truth with a capital T. Everyone in this thread is theorizing, including you - my theories just happen not to agree with yours so instead of having a discussion you've instead decided to call me : illogical, stupid, uneducated, and unfair.

Basically the only evidence you want that would convince you is impossible to gather - so basically that's the exact same thing.

#keeptrolling

err, what? Senario's been pretty much nothing but calm throughout this whole thread, also I haven't seen him call you anything at all really, stop projecting.

@Senario: Bayo 2 didn't sell well because the actual fanbase for Bayonetta was on Xbox and PS and even then it was pretty small-time for a multi-platform game. It's the same reason why Mass Effect 3 on Wii U sold only a quarter of a million units while the 360 version sold over 3 million alone. While yes, hard statistics don't really exist for these kinds of thing, it's hardly unreasonable to impose an educated guess about the causation for low sales numbers. This goes for Bayonetta 2 and GIR#FE

[ckc22]

err, what? Senario's been pretty much nothing but calm throughout this whole thread, also I haven't seen him call you anything at all really, stop projecting.

@Senario: Bayo 2 didn't sell well because the actual fanbase for Bayonetta was on Xbox and PS and even then it was pretty small-time for a multi-platform game. It's the same reason why Mass Effect 3 on Wii U sold only a quarter of a million units while the 360 version sold over 3 million alone. While yes, hard statistics don't really exist for these kinds of thing, it's hardly unreasonable to impose an educated guess about the causation for low sales numbers. This goes for Bayonetta 2 and GIR#FE

Um... all of those instances (stupid, uneducated, illogical) are literally in that paragraph I quoted.... so maybe read first before you hop onto your knees?

Edited January 6, 2016 by ckc22

[Baldrick]

Um... all of those instances (stupid, uneducated, illogical) are literally in that paragraph I quoted.... so maybe read first before you hop onto your knees?

They're attacking your argument, not you.

But I think the burden of proof is on Senario. If his contention is "despite the game not selling well, it was still want the majority of SMT/FE fans wanted", then he should provide evidence that people would have bought it, but couldn't for whatever reason.

[eclipse]

But I think the burden of proof is on Senario. If his contention is "despite the game not selling well, it was still want the majority of SMT/FE fans wanted", then he should provide evidence that people would have bought it, but couldn't for whatever reason.

I'd say the burden of proof is on both of them, for different reasons:

If you honestly believe this game did everything right and is what SMT and FE fans wanted good for you - there are thousands of forum posts and comments that indicate otherwise, and the sales certainly seem to back that up.

He'd need to dig in the Japanese forums, because only the really diehard fans of the game would import it at this point.

And Senario for what you said above.

I think they're both untenable, because they both miss the point: We're not the target market yet.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

dropping in to comment on my own thread for a moment.

the target market is a very important thing to consider in anything.

for example, DmC Devil May Cry was not made with the original fans in mind, but with "people that never played the original 4 games."

to almost nobody's big surprise, the game flopped, of course it to had an awful release date like this game did (mid January).

i like to bring up this game as the prime example of not to not market your game for many reasons.

things this game and DmC had in common: not appealing towards me, radically different character designs for previously existing characters, poor release date.

Edited January 7, 2016 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[Senario]

They're attacking your argument, not you.

But I think the burden of proof is on Senario. If his contention is "despite the game not selling well, it was still want the majority of SMT/FE fans wanted", then he should provide evidence that people would have bought it, but couldn't for whatever reason.

However that is not my claim. I do not claim that the "Majority of SMT and FE fans want this game". What I am saying is that it is unreasonable to assume that most didn't want the game and that is the exact reason why it didn't sell without considering other factors that could be just as important.

I acknowledge that there are many factors which could have lead to this game not selling well, among them the install bases of the 3ds not equalling the Wii U and often splitting the fanbase. Which could also mean that most fans of either series do not have a Wii U, not a surprising thing as sales numbers for the 3ds far exceed those of the wii U with Japan's focus on handheld games. In addition to that, it could just not have traction among fans, though I find that claim hard to support as nobody who is satisfied with the game will be going online to talk about it. There is always going to be a vocal minority with almost anything related to media. Other possibilities being that its release date was less than ideal on the 26th, right after the holiday rush is pretty much over.

But to pin it down as "fans definitely like it universally" would be interpreting what I've said wrong. My claims don't try to prove that there is one answer to everything, I just claim that it is logically difficult to decide which factor is most prevalent as it may be a single factor or many factors which contribute to the end result. To showcase which one it is you would need a poll or more specific stats. This is basic logic imo. I don't hide that I personally like this game and want to get it, but I have an issue when people dislike the game and spew hate to see who agrees with them when they could just ignore the game. On DmC, I did not personally like the direction of the game but I looked at the previews/gameplay then decided just to simply not buy it. I instead spent that money on Bayonetta 2 and the original Bayonetta which is how it should be, you move on when it doesn't interest you to the point that you have very little good to say(neutral is fine). People who don't like this game should just go look at the mainstream games in both SMT and FE that are coming out fairly soon after last I heard and go buy those, not spend their time seeing how many people agree with their dislike of a game.

Um... all of those instances (stupid, uneducated, illogical) are literally in that paragraph I quoted.... so maybe read first before you hop onto your knees?

He is by far not "hopping onto my knees", we disagree at some parts but I can see after his latest post (last page) that he does have a reason for his comments. Which is fine and good.

@Havel: I would like to add, unrelated to this game, that around the time Mass Effect 3 came out on wii U the publishing company released the entire trilogy series on the other systems remastered for the same price as ME3 on Wii U making the fully priced and late ME3 for Wii U generally a bad investment. One extra thing to consider as possible reasons why it didn't sell well.

[Baldrick]

You could say this game is twice as bad as DmC because it's eschewing two existing fanbases rather than one.

Though is it a fair comparison? It doesn't appeal to me either, but it's for similar reasons that Persona and elements of modern FE don't appeal to me. I would think it's right up their alley.

[ckc22]

Actually no, it wouldn't be foolish because you are making assumptions on what would/wouldn't convince me. You make claims and do not support them with appropriate evidence showing causation rather than correlation. It is literally like talking to somebody who is uneducated and doesn't understand basic logic. How about this, you link me the "thousands" Plural, of UNIQUE forum posts or you find me a poll showing not only the hate but also those that are neutral and like the game. Sample size is important so it needs to be in the thousands of unique replies, otherwise small deviations skew the data way too much. A significant majority need to be in the "hate" group because neutral doesn't count for one side or the other. Reminder: you have to show the intent to buy or not buy and if they have a Wii U or not. This is to show whether the Wii U is the contributing factor to people not getting the game as opposed to just being a fan of the games individually.

Here is an argument with evidence to back it up and an appropriate conclusion. Bayonetta 1 during its launch week sold about 200k while Bayonetta 2 in its launch week sold about 38k, while these numbers are depressing it is unreasonable and impossible to conclude a causation as to what are the reasons for the low sales of Bayonetta 2. Some possible explainations are that people did not want bayonetta 2 or they didn't have nor want to buy the system it was on (since it was on a different system). Reported by gamasutra for Bayo1 and Gamespot for bayonetta 2.

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=25963

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/despite-glowing-bayonetta-2-reviews-sales-in-japan/1100-6422548/

Of course you're free to ignore all this, but I think most logical people would see you as somebody who clearly doesn't even know how to back up your claim in an intelligent and fair manner. Telling me to "look it up" means you actually don't have evidence to support your claim that you would be ok with sharing.

They're attacking your argument, not you.

But I think the burden of proof is on Senario. If his contention is "despite the game not selling well, it was still want the majority of SMT/FE fans wanted", then he should provide evidence that people would have bought it, but couldn't for whatever reason.

Want to try again? If he had attacked my argument I wouldn't have an issue with him. He's a flaming troll though.