Soleil Support Changed in NA/Europe Localization + Shara/Syalla Name Change

[Dualazi]

It absolutely is yaoi and yuri bait. I was excited when I saw IS/Nintendo being all "we're getting with the times and being more inclusive" and patting themselves on the back over including gay marriage. But then I saw the actual characters they chose for it are directed at straight people and was like "nope". I don't think I know any gay people that are excited about the options. I personally was the most annoyed that they couldn't have even made a new character for lesbians. Like uh, thanks for the half assed attempt?

So, what really needs to happen then, do we need a gay committee to determine if the homosexual options in a given medium are meeting certain metrics of attractiveness or authenticity? Do they get to rule on how good of a person these hypothetical gay love interest have to be? The idea that gay people can't have negative aspects to their personality is frankly ridiculous, and while it does admittedly suck to get thrown one of the rehashes, I figure that might be a bone to people who figured Tharja should have been a lesbian option in awakening. Either way, getting more than a little tired of people complain about how the inclusion they got isn't their perfect brand of inclusion spanning across cultures, and therefor isn't something to be excited about.

[Dualazi]

Of course not ecchi like you are probably thinking, but like Fates took Awakening further, FE15 might take Fates even further. I doubt sex scenes will happen, but who's to say (clothed) body touching is not too far off? Or how we might get even worse written love relationships? What if they ditch gameplay entirely cuz that's not what sells?(so we have Empty Square maps: Powerleveling! the game) Oh lol I'm so fearful right now. I know I'm exaggerating and I still have faith in IS, but dang sometimes it's hard to not be a doombringer out of fear of disappointment.

C'mon now, I have my share of reservations about future products as well, but they have, what, 75+ maps/scenarios across all 3 games without including paralogues/DLCs? They've obviously given a lot of thought to the weapon triangle and weapon skill ranks as well, and I feel like the gameplay is still the core feature and attraction. People will make a big deal of my room/support options because they're either new entirely or have a greater effect on the game, but I'd honestly be surprised if either of those things were enough to lure in people who had no other interest in the gameplay itself.

[maybe]

Of course not ecchi like you are probably thinking, but like Fates took Awakening further, FE15 might take Fates even further. I doubt sex scenes will happen, but who's to say (clothed) body touching is not too far off?

well I mean that was considered for fates until nintendo decided they were creeps right

so it's perfectly possible! but also probably not because nintendo didn't want it

[nyainou]

So, what really needs to happen then, do we need a gay committee to determine if the homosexual options in a given medium are meeting certain metrics of attractiveness or authenticity? Do they get to rule on how good of a person these hypothetical gay love interest have to be? The idea that gay people can't have negative aspects to their personality is frankly ridiculous, and while it does admittedly suck to get thrown one of the rehashes, I figure that might be a bone to people who figured Tharja should have been a lesbian option in awakening. Either way, getting more than a little tired of people complain about how the inclusion they got isn't their perfect brand of inclusion spanning across cultures, and therefor isn't something to be excited about.

The issue is that they're both pieces of shit. Having both the gay options be objectively creepy people makes you think.. What does IS think of gay people? That we're obsessive creeps? Every character should have negative traits, including the gay ones. But when their gimmick is "I make everyone, and I mean everyone, around me uncomfortable by constantly being overly sexual and creepy" and "I stalk and obsess over whoever I fall in love with, thus also making them uncomfortable" then it just gets ya thinkin'. Its more about the message they're sending by having their gay options be these kinds of people.

[Dualazi]

The issue is that they're both pieces of shit. Having both the gay options be objectively creepy people makes you think.. What does IS think of gay people? That we're obsessive creeps? Every character should have negative traits, including the gay ones. But when their gimmick is "I make everyone, and I mean everyone, around me uncomfortable by constantly being overly sexual and creepy" and "I stalk and obsess over whoever I fall in love with, thus also making them uncomfortable" then it just gets ya thinkin'. Its more about the message they're sending by having their gay options be these kinds of people.

Niles/Zero sucks, yeah, no question. However, I'd chalk NotTharja up to the yandere stalker archetype being a popular one with some crowds, so it's more a victim of differing cultural perceptions than anything. I would, also, strongly suggest against assuming malice when ignorance might be the cause. Of late I've seen a lot of people try and read authorial intent or support from the creative work they've produced, and nothing good really ever comes of it, because it's mostly un-provable either way, and typically used as a cudgel to try and alter behavior of creators.

[Immahnoob]

The issue is that they're both pieces of shit. Having both the gay options be objectively creepy people makes you think.. What does IS think of gay people? That we're obsessive creeps? Every character should have negative traits, including the gay ones. But when their gimmick is "I make everyone, and I mean everyone, around me uncomfortable by constantly being overly sexual and creepy" and "I stalk and obsess over whoever I fall in love with, thus also making them uncomfortable" then it just gets ya thinkin'. Its more about the message they're sending by having their gay options be these kinds of people.

Or maybe, they're just two characters in a cast of ~70 and they're not the best people like none of the characters are. I didn't like Vaike's forged PhD more than I didn't like Robin's obsession with tactics. I'm sure that whoever he marries, they talk tactics in bed, but that's better than being a brick head.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Immahnoob

[nyainou]

Niles/Zero sucks, yeah, no question. However, I'd chalk NotTharja up to the yandere stalker archetype being a popular one with some crowds, so it's more a victim of differing cultural perceptions than anything. I would, also, strongly suggest against assuming malice when ignorance might be the cause. Of late I've seen a lot of people try and read authorial intent or support from the creative work they've produced, and nothing good really ever comes of it, because it's mostly un-provable either way, and typically used as a cudgel to try and alter behavior of creators.

I know, I know. But criticism is what helps bring about good change. Maybe I always just take it personally, being gay, but seeing queer characters only being terrible people is uncomfortable, so I can't help but get defensive. You're right that it was probably ignorance and I'm probably just injecting my feelings too hard into this whole thing.

[Topaz Light]

Niles/Zero sucks, yeah, no question. However, I'd chalk NotTharja up to the yandere stalker archetype being a popular one with some crowds, so it's more a victim of differing cultural perceptions than anything. I would, also, strongly suggest against assuming malice when ignorance might be the cause. Of late I've seen a lot of people try and read authorial intent or support from the creative work they've produced, and nothing good really ever comes of it, because it's mostly un-provable either way, and typically used as a cudgel to try and alter behavior of creators.

In all honesty, I think it's fair to take issue with IS conveniently deciding to line the two gay/bi options up with two of the most... morally questionable... recruitable characters in the game. I suppose it's theoretically possible that it's just a coincidence, but considering that they have a female character who is explicitly attracted to women (Soleil), but who for some inexplicable reason can romance neither F!Corrin (whose preferences presumably match the player's), nor Rhajat (who is bi), nor any other female characters for that matter, then one's gotta wonder.

For anyone who's gonna argue the "schoolgirl lesbians" trope for Soleil... it may well be true that that's what they were aiming for, but seeing as it's just another form of the "being [not straight] is just a phase" mentality, it hardly makes things better.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Topaz Light

[Time the Crestfallen]

In all honesty, I think it's fair to take issue with IS conveniently deciding to line the two gay/bi options up with two of the most... morally questionable... recruitable characters in the game. I suppose it's theoretically possible that it's just a coincidence, but considering that they have a female character who is explicitly attracted to women (Soleil), but who for some inexplicable reason can romance neither F!Corrin (whose preferences presumably match the player's), nor Rhajat (who is bi), nor any other female characters for that matter, then one's gotta wonder.

Um, I think you might be forgetting someone.

I mean yeah, they're not model citizens or anything, but they're not inhuman monsters either and they both have their redeeming features. Besides, it's not as if any of the straight characters don't have morally questionable moments or attitudes; Camilla acts like a yandere on Birthright, Flannel is either implied or outright stated to eat people in Birthright as well (although he might be bluffing. I don't recall well enough to say for sure), Yuugiri is always going on about killing enemies and Pieri is...well, Pieri.

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

Who knew I'll ever see the day someone will seriously claim that because of some fanservice, they'll take out (and subsequently censor) gameplay.

You've opened my eyes to new possibilities.

I was not 100% serious when I wrote that, but I still fear we will go towards Awakening's bland gameplay direction, to put it less stupidly. I guess a more proper player feedback would be needed for IS to know where to take the series in the gameplay department.

[Topaz Light]

Um, I think you might be forgetting someone.

I mean yeah, they're not model citizens or anything, but they're not inhuman monsters either and they both have their redeeming features. Besides, it's not as if any of the straight characters don't have morally questionable moments or attitudes; Camilla acts like a yandere on Birthright, Flannel is either implied or outright stated to eat people in Birthright as well (although he might be bluffing. I don't recall well enough to say for sure), Yuugiri is always going on about killing enemies and Pieri is...well, Pieri.

This is probably a really nitpicky distinction, but I did say "two of the most" and not "the two most"... at least, I've always interpreted those as meaning subtly different things.

I guess my point isn't that making gay/bisexual characters who are morally questionable is bad, it's that it seems awfully convenient to me (and to other people, it seems) that they chose two particularly ethically-dubious people and no one else to be the same sex marriage options, even when they had another (much less sketchy, to my knowledge) character who was set up perfectly for it (Soleil) and from the sound of it several other characters who would've been great options, as well.

Again, I'm not objecting to Niles or Rhajat being bi; it's a good start that they have same-gender romance options who aren't just there as jokes. It's just, the problem is really that the only same-gender romance options in the game are conveniently both with people who are very morally-questionable; that fact really makes it seem like IS is associating non-heterosexual orientations with moral deficiency or ambivalence, which is a harmful mentality. That, I believe, is what people are taking issue with.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Topaz Light

[nyainou]

This is probably a really nitpicky distinction, but I did say "two of the most" and not "the two most"... at least, I've always interpreted those as meaning subtly different things.

I guess my point isn't that making gay/bisexual characters who are morally questionable is bad, it's that it seems awfully convenient to me (and to other people, it seems) that they chose two particularly ethically-dubious people and no one else to be the same sex marriage options, even when they had another (much less sketchy, to my knowledge) character who was set up perfectly for it (Soleil) and from the sound of it several other characters who would've been great options, as well.

Again, I'm not objective to Niles or Rhajat being bi; it's a good start that they have same-gender romance options who aren't just there as jokes. It's just, the problem is really that the only same-gender romance options in the game are conveniently both with people who are very morally-questionable; that fact really makes it seem like IS is associating non-heterosexual orientations with moral deficiency or ambivalence, which is a harmful mentality. That, I believe, is what people are taking issue with.

You've managed to articulate exactly what I wanted to say this whole time. Thank you.

[Time the Crestfallen]

True, it's both strange and unfortunate that both of the same-sex options are of moral ambiguity. However, I blame that more on Rhajat than I do on Niles. I mean, on Nohr you have lots and lots of characters that have some messed up aspects of their personality and it's really just him going with the theme. Rhajat being the other same-sex option instead of someone like Soleil is much worse since not only does it take the option away from someone more appropriate (although Soleil isn't a very good representative of the Gay Community herself), but it also makes both the gay options morally ambiguous, which results in some very unfortunate implications. The choice to make Rhajat the female same-sex option was likely rooted in an attempt to capitalise on Tharja's popularity, but since I'm pretty sure she's way more popular in Japan than she is in the West it kind of fell flat.

[SalShich10N]

two of the most... morally questionable... recruitable characters in the game.

This is only in their description. They're actually very tame in-game, Zero only has some innuendo in his dialogue. Shara is also very vanilla, so was Tharja in japan. Belka and Yuugiri are much more morally questionable than them.

[angienessyo]

So, what really needs to happen then, do we need a gay committee to determine if the homosexual options in a given medium are meeting certain metrics of attractiveness or authenticity? Do they get to rule on how good of a person these hypothetical gay love interest have to be? The idea that gay people can't have negative aspects to their personality is frankly ridiculous, and while it does admittedly suck to get thrown one of the rehashes, I figure that might be a bone to people who figured Tharja should have been a lesbian option in awakening. Either way, getting more than a little tired of people complain about how the inclusion they got isn't their perfect brand of inclusion spanning across cultures, and therefor isn't something to be excited about.

As others have already said, gay characters with flaws are totally fine. Even gay villains are fine. But the problem is 100% of the gay options being bad people. They don't need to have gay people on the staff to know how to write a gay person because well, we're people. Dragon Age Inquisition has 4 gay/bi characters and they all are flawed in some way, 2 of them are even not the best of people (Sera, the lesbian, is all about bashing heads in and doing shady things). But no one criticizes Bioware for including flawed gay characters because they go about it the right way by actually having a variety. If just 1 of the 2 gay options had been more of a positive or even just a more neutral character I wouldn't bat an eye at Tharja 2.0 or Niles/Zero.

[Loki Laufeyson]

This is only in their description. They're actually very tame in-game, Zero only has some innuendo in his dialogue. Shara is also very vanilla, so was Tharja in japan. Belka and Yuugiri are much more morally questionable than them.

agreed. From what ive learned about Rhajat, shes actually a lot nicer than Tharja was, and isnt baselessly mad for the MU. Its actually really bothering me that people assume shes trash without really looking at her interactions with other characters. (and the implication the strange girl is a piece of shit is....well...really shitty. She doesnt even seem to be very morally questionable at all.)

[Water Mage]

This is only in their description. They're actually very tame in-game, Zero only has some innuendo in his dialogue. Shara is also very vanilla, so was Tharja in japan. Belka and Yuugiri are much more morally questionable than them.

Seconded, despite being called a sadist, Niles strikes me as a bitter person rather than a sadist. And judging by his supports with his daughter, he actually dislikes the kind of person he is.

And Rhajat is more of a person that is awkward, quiet and unsocial rather than a stalker.

She really isn't much like Tharja other than her cursing habit.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Water Mage

[Tryhard]

As others have already said, gay characters with flaws are totally fine. Even gay villains are fine. But the problem is 100% of the gay options being bad people. They don't need to have gay people on the staff to know how to write a gay person because well, we're people.

We don't even know how morally bankrupt (or not) they are, even what I think about Zero being sadistic is based on conjecture, and from the above it seems like they aren't as much as people think. Haven't really seen any analysis or played the game and know Japanese myself. They seem like people with flaws, looks fine to me. Edited January 24, 2016 by Tryhard

[Hunter Nightblood]

We don't even know how morally bankrupt (or not) they are, even what I think about Zero being sadistic is based on conjecture, and from the above it seems like they aren't as much as people think. Haven't really seen any analysis or played the game and know Japanese myself. They seem like people with flaws, looks fine to me.

I guess we won't know for sure until Feburary 19 then.

I don't hate the name Rhajat.

[gayserbeam]

It's not just that Niles and Rhajat are bad people, it's that their personalities are just excuses used to "justify" their bisexuality. Niles likes guys because he is a pervert, Rhajat likes Corrin because she is unaturally obsessed with her. It's not an orientation or a preference, it's the weird feelings of a weirdo.

There are other borderline crazies on the cast: Yuugiri and Pieri, or even assholes like Jakob and Asama. But their craziness or rudeness has no sexual element like Niles, and none of them have character bios saying they "throw suggestive comments at men and women alike". At least I know that Yuugiri's sadism can't be used as an excuse to cover up homosexuality.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

It's not just that Niles and Rhajat are bad people, it's that their personalities are just excuses used to "justify" their bisexuality. Niles likes guys because he is a pervert, Rhajat likes Corrin because she is unaturally obsessed with her. It's not an orientation or a preference, it's the weird feelings of a weirdo.

There are other borderline crazies on the cast: Yuugiri and Pieri, or even assholes like Jakob and Asama. But their craziness or rudeness has no sexual element like Niles, and none of them have character bios saying they "throw suggestive comments at men and women alike". At least I know that Yuugiri's sadism can't be used as an excuse to cover up homosexuality.

Yeah this is pretty much my beef, its like they are saying "we can't have perfectly normal people be gay, that'd be ridiculous because only wierdo's like the same sex"

[Solkia]

Yeah this is pretty much my beef, its like they are saying "we can't have perfectly normal people be gay, that'd be ridiculous because only wierdo's like the same sex"

Well japan is about as progressive as a witch hunt so I never expect much from their media in terms of representation.

I expect a lot better from Treehouse

[EJ107]

People complain about Zero/Shara being the S/S options, but I'd rather have them than a lot of the other characters.

The siblings all have incestuous undertones, Nyx is an old woman trapped in a childs body, Pieri is an insane murderer, Gunther is an old man, Belka is an emotionless assassin, Midoriko and Lutz are basically little kids. Odin, Luna and Lazward are pre-existing characters who were only available to the opposite gender last time...

Also here are my predictions on what the reaction would have been if these other characters had been the single S/S option:

Tsubaki: "Of course they'd go for the most effeminate looking guy"

Rinkah: "Of course they'd go for the most masculine looking girl"

Camilla: "Of course they'd go for the most promiscuous girl"

Foleo: "It's a trap!"

Kaze:

"You mean my only option died ten chapters ago?!"

Soleil: "They finally added a same gender option and her entire character revolves around her sexuality..."

Flannel/Nishiki/Velour/Kinu: "OMG my only option is a furry!"

Tsukuyomi: "eww"

I think ultimately you'll never make everyone happy, and Zero and Shara were two of the safer choices. Not because of their personalities, but because of their appearance and relation (or, well, lack thereof) to Corrin.

Edited January 24, 2016 by EJ107

[BrightBow]

I can't see how one could possibly expect a decent bi-sexual character from IS these days. While one could say that IS loves things that are not "normal" more then ever, they will treat anything out of the ordinary as either a joke or as fap material.

Edited January 24, 2016 by BrightBow

[NekoKnight]

People complain about Zero/Shara being the S/S options, but I'd rather have them than a lot of the other characters.

The siblings all have incestuous undertones, Nyx is an old woman trapped in a childs body, Pieri is an insane murderer, Gunther is an old man, Belka is an emotionless assassin, Midoriko and Lutz are basically little kids. Odin, Luna and Lazward are pre-existing characters who were only available to the opposite gender last time...

Also here are my predictions on what the reaction would have been if these other characters had been the single S/S option:

Tsubaki: "Of course they'd go for the most effeminate looking guy"

Rinkah: "Of course they'd go for the most masculine looking girl"

Camilla: "Of course they'd go for the most promiscuous girl"

Foleo: "It's a trap!"

Kaze:

"You mean my only option died ten chapters ago?!"

Soleil: "They finally added a same gender option and her entire character revolves around her sexuality..."

Flannel/Nishiki/Velour/Kinu: "OMG my only option is a furry!"

Tsukuyomi: "eww"

I think ultimately you'll never make everyone happy, and Zero and Shara were two of the safer choices. Not because of their personalities, but because of their appearance and relation (or, well, lack thereof) to Corrin.

Tsubaki and Kaze are some of the most popular "I wish they were a gay option" characters around here. In fact, all of the characters you listed are fairly well liked outside of Tsukuyomi and Soleil (and Rinka, if we're talking gameplay). Most of those would be better choices than what we got. Would Zero be safer than Joker or Silas? Shara safer than Azura or Felicia? Really?