Has anyone pieced this together? *spoilers*

[Alastor15243]

So one of the most intriguing things about Fire Emblem Awakening, and one of the only interesting things about the world and story in my opinion (the characters are great for the most part), is the timeline wherein Robin kills Chrom and ushers in the zombie apocalypse future. But what really confuses me is... how exactly it happened, and what the chain of events was, and how it differed from the main timeline. Is there any way to piece together what happened from what the supports and story say?

Specifically:

Why was the premonition scene and Validar's overall plan delayed compared to the altered timeline by what's implied to be around eight whole years (long enough for the child characters to have had childhoods with their parents before the risen overtook the world)?

In what capacity did the Valm war happen?

How long did the parents survive before they died and left their children as orphans?

Stuff like that. It's a fascinating story, but it's also criminally underexplained.

[JasonsOrigin]

I feel like Valm was just sort of thrown into the story to say, "Hey Ylisse isn't the only continent affected by the impending doom."

I think the important answers you're looking for are in this page. http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Grima_(character)

Edited February 12, 2016 by JasonsOrigin

[Czar_Yoshi]

Well, I've done my best. I'm satisfied with the outcome, though it relies too much on tangential evidence to properly say it's canon. Here goes, though.

The first major break from what is seen in game occurs in Cht.6, where Emmeryn dies and Chrom is wounded (we know this from Lucina). Because of this, Cht.7-13 never happen, and as a result Emmeryn never causes the Plegians to abandon Gangrel. Because of that, Ylisse and Plegia are dragged into a very long and prolonged war, during which the children are born. Ferox is presumably still on Ylisse's side (as Lon'qu and Olivia would have to join the army somehow), and Cherche presumably still arrived from Valm at some point for the same reason.

Valm's invasion occurs some 8-10 years later, as opposed to the two years it takes in Awakening. This delay is because Yen'fay stood against Walhart and allowed Say'ri to die, instead of the outcome shown in Cht.18. Ylisse may have wrapped up their battle with Plegia by the time this happens, but it's more likely Valm's invasion interrupts their battle and forces them to work together. Either way, toward the end of the invasion they are in a situation similar to Cht.23, where Robin kills Chrom and becomes Grima (they really are all alone, as shown in the Premonition). For 10-odd years after this, the remainder of Chrom's army, along with (presumably) all of the world sans Plegia, fights a long losing battle against the Risen, during which all of the parents are eventually picked off in various scenarios sometimes described in the parent-child supports. By the end of this, Grima has fully regained his strength and attacks Ylisstol, and you know the rest.

Why did it take Grima so long to regain his strength in the future? One explanation is that he didn't have the sacrifice he had in the present. Future Plegia was trashed by war with Ylisse and then an invasion from Valm, present Plegia has had a largely blood-free revolution followed by no Valm war whatsoever, and then nearly 100% of their population was offered up.

The third timeline, Morgan's future, is a bigger bucket of worms and is a failure scenario similar to ALttP. It probably wasn't planned from the beginning and was entirely added on in DLC to address various plotholes surrounding Morgan.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Czar_Yoshi

[Alastor15243]

Well, I've done my best. I'm satisfied with the outcome, though it relies too much on tangential evidence to properly say it's canon. Here goes, though.

The first major break from what is seen in game occurs in Cht.6, where Emmeryn dies and Chrom is wounded (we know this from Lucina). Because of this, Cht.7-13 never happen, and as a result Emmeryn never causes the Plegians to abandon Gangrel. Because of that, Ylisse and Plegia are dragged into a very long and prolonged war, during which the children are born. Ferox is presumably still on Ylisse's side (as Lon'qu and Olivia would have to join the army somehow), and Cherche presumably still arrived from Valm at some point for the same reason.

Valm's invasion occurs some 8-10 years later, as opposed to the two years it takes in Awakening. This delay is because Yen'fay stood against Walhart and allowed Say'ri to die, instead of the outcome shown in Cht.18. Ylisse may have wrapped up their battle with Plegia by the time this happens, but it's more likely Valm's invasion interrupts their battle and forces them to work together. Either way, toward the end of the invasion they are in a situation similar to Cht.23, where Robin kills Chrom and becomes Grima (they really are all alone, as shown in the Premonition). For 10-odd years after this, the remainder of Chrom's army, along with (presumably) all of the world sans Plegia, fights a long losing battle against the Risen, during which all of the parents are eventually picked off in various scenarios sometimes described in the parent-child supports. By the end of this, Grima has fully regained his strength and attacks Ylisstol, and you know the rest.

Why did it take Grima so long to regain his strength in the future? One explanation is that he didn't have the sacrifice he had in the present. Future Plegia was trashed by war with Ylisse and then an invasion from Valm, present Plegia has had a largely blood-free revolution followed by no Valm war whatsoever, and then nearly 100% of their population was offered up.

The third timeline, Morgan's future, is a bigger bucket of worms and is a failure scenario similar to ALttP. It probably wasn't planned from the beginning and was entirely added on in DLC to address various plotholes surrounding Morgan.

That largely makes sense, except for one thing: Yen'Fay. Why did he act differently? I had assumed he had come from a wholly different timeline, because in this timeline, it's identical to the bad future in terms of everything except the fate-altering interventions of everyone who went back in time through the portals, including Grima and the Risen. This implies to me that Yen'fay must have had some encounter with Inigo, Brady, Gerome or Owain (or possibly Cynthia I suppose), or at least the risen that came out of their portals, that shook his worldview so thoroughly that he could no longer stand up to Excellus. Which is interesting, but... I don't see how that would work out.

[Czar_Yoshi]

He's a bit of an oddity, I'm not really sure what the devs were intending with him. Given how little is mentioned about him, I almost suspect his backstory was put there specifically to address how Ylisse and Plegia had time for a full war in the future, without concern for any other potential plot issues.

The only possible difference between present and future Valm that could have influenced his decision was Virion not returning in the future, but the two are never stated to know eachother, so meh.

But considering that nothing is explained by assuming he came from a wholly different timeline (the issue of why he chose differently is still in the air), it doesn't make any less sense to assume that he came from Lucina's than it does for anywhere else. And since him coming from Lucina's does explain other things about the story, I'm just inclined to roll with it.

Encountering Inigo, Brady, Gerome or Owain... That's possible too, but remember that they're all in the far north while Yen'fay is in the south, so it's not very likely. And it could work the other way, too- assuming there was contact, maybe the future child convinced him to side with Excellus and spare Say'ri.

[Alastor15243]

But considering that nothing is explained by assuming he came from a wholly different timeline (the issue of why he chose differently is still in the air), it doesn't make any less sense to assume that he came from Lucina's than it does for anywhere else. And since him coming from Lucina's does explain other things about the story, I'm just inclined to roll with it.

Well I figured it was one of those things like "The Future Past", that's just even worse than the bad future because fate went differently in that universe wholly without the intervention of time travel and it was just an alternate reality. These two timelines, however, are shown to be the same timeline up to the point of intervention.

And anyway, a few children, Inigo specifically, are stated to have been traveling around looking for their parents during the intervening two years, so it's possible that one of them could have met Yen'fay while traveling the continent.

[Czar_Yoshi]

FP had the intervention of time travel though. It's not an alternate scenario based on Lucina's future, it's an alternate scenario based on the player losing ingame. In FP's world, there was already a doomed future that had sent back a set of children.

[Alastor15243]

FP had the intervention of time travel though. It's not an alternate scenario based on Lucina's future, it's an alternate scenario based on the player losing ingame. In FP's world, there was already a doomed future that had sent back a set of children.

Where does it say that?

[falcoknights]

most likely, the added years onto the FP timeline is the cause of yen'fay's change of actions. he's very much older in one of them (around a decade), and due to the added fighting, the world was a different place. the yen'fay you can recruit spotpass is also shown to be different than the one you defeat in-game, as well.

so it's most likely that what caused his change in actions is a combination of the world's environment, and his world experience (brought on by a vastly different setting and being older). those culminated in a dead say'ri for that world.

the same reasons are why we see an alive say'ri- a shorter war and a younger yen'fay means he's going to be in a drastically different state of mind and life.

[Moblin Major General]

The remnants of Awakening's First Gen from FP also show up in Infinite Regalia. There is reason to believe that during such a long period of time that both sides would have acquired many holy weapons and other regalia. Some of the other children (if there were any that didn't go back) probably created 12 more Deadlords to prevent the Risen from gaining the Crusader weapons, the Sacred Twins, and the Regalia, among other stupidly powerful weapons. I would also say that Walhart may have had an heir by that point, and that his child helped the resistance once Grima was revived. Of the Spotpass Paralogues, Walhart seems most likely to have a child in this timeline, as Emmeryn and Gangrel are dead, Yen'fay seeks his death in the Outrealms, Aversa still serves Validar until Grima replaces her with FP's Morgan clones, And Priam is a wildcard, but he most likely joins Walhart, being that Valm was inevitably more powerful than Ylisse, unlike in canon.

[Czar_Yoshi]

most likely, the added years onto the FP timeline is the cause of yen'fay's change of actions. he's very much older in one of them (around a decade), and due to the added fighting, the world was a different place. the yen'fay you can recruit spotpass is also shown to be different than the one you defeat in-game, as well.

The length of the Ylisse/Plegia war has no bearing on when Walhart began his conquest, though. In fact, he had already started before the Ylisse/Plegia war (as shown by Virion's arrival, which is elaborated on in the official comic).

Where does it say that?

-In IR, the Deadlords are strongly implied to be your party. They also say, "IN OUR FINAL HOUR, THE HOUR THAT CHANGED OUR WORLD... WE FOUGHT, AND PAID THE ULTIMATE PRICE" which suggests they died all at once. This is at odds with what we know of Lucina's future- Chrom is the first to die, then the other parents have sporadic deaths during the war against the Risen- but fits perfectly with a player Game Over scenario.

-In FP2, Inigo (when talking to NPC Inigo) mentions that NPC looks stronger than he was. The NPC childrens' stats are calculated off your current stats, not your stats at the time when you recruited the originals, as well. This would be a fluke if the two futures had a common root, but if FP is based off your game, makes much more sense.

-Morgan exists in FP (and one of the FP Morgans is the one you recruit, at that). This occurs even if Morgan's alternate parent is a future child or one of the Spotpass Six, which cannot happen in Lucina's timeline. Meanwhile, Morgan's supports only suggest anyone knew her in Lucina's future if she had a sibling, which cannot happen with those pairs, so presumably she simply doesn't exist in Lucina's future under some conditions.

-Nintendo has a recent (as of Awakening's release) and well-publicized precedent for doing the exact same thing with the Zelda timeline, so the plot device is hardly out of the blue.

...For that matter, it's not impossible that some of the other DLC maps take place in the FP future as well. While there's little to suggest they do (and some certainly don't), the likes of Death's Embrace make a surprising amount of sense there. Risen were created by a Plegian scientist and then repatriated by Grima upon his resurrection? It's not like they aren't a complete mystery otherwise. Maybe even Golden Gaffe is a legitimate scenario- those bros were talking about making a fortune in their ingame Paralogues, if you never did them in they might have actually done it. In fact, much of the odd Risen behavior makes more sense if you just assume they're restless undead and not yet servants of evil.

[Cquel]

-Morgan exists in FP (and one of the FP Morgans is the one you recruit, at that). This occurs even if Morgan's alternate parent is a future child or one of the Spotpass Six, which cannot happen in Lucina's timeline. Meanwhile, Morgan's supports only suggest anyone knew her in Lucina's future if she had a sibling, which cannot happen with those pairs, so presumably she simply doesn't exist in Lucina's future under some conditions.

Do we know that the FP Morgan is the one that we recruit? I dont remember them saying or implying that but it has been a while since i played FP. I always got the impression that the Morgan we recruit came form our own timeline were we win.

[Czar_Yoshi]

In Morgan's FP convo (FP1 if male, FP2 if female), Robin gives Morgan a book on tactics before leaving, and Morgan comments that they already had one, given by that world's Grima. In another convo in Hot-Spring Scramble (Cynthia for F, Inigo for M), Morgan has two identical copies of the same book, with no memory of why.

[Cquel]

In Morgan's FP convo (FP1 if male, FP2 if female), Robin gives Morgan a book on tactics before leaving, and Morgan comments that they already had one, given by that world's Grima. In another convo in Hot-Spring Scramble (Cynthia for F, Inigo for M), Morgan has two identical copies of the same book, with no memory of why.

Well male Morgan says he has two copies because he is a klutz and that he tries to be prepared for every eventuality. Female Morgan is a bit more convincing but she could have two for the same reason as her counterpart. She does seem to play around with people a lot more than male Morgan. Im not saying that the FP book and the one in HS Scramble are not the same, just that it seems like a bit of a stretch to me. Then again iv made stretched theories in the past so who knows.

[Czar_Yoshi]

He really made an identical copy of personal annotations?

He also could have assumed that was why he had it, seeing as if it was from the future, he wouldn't know anyway and would just have to guess.

While in real life, it could very easily be just another unique book he happens to have two copies of, this is a story and is thus subject to the law of conservation of detail. Why bother having two sets of identical books that are described in exactly the same way and would make sense being assumed to be the same if they were, in fact, completely random? And they weren't even developed remotely separately- in NA, FP1 and HSS were released on the same day.

[Anomalocaris]

Why did it take Grima so long to regain his strength in the future? One explanation is that he didn't have the sacrifice he had in the present. Future Plegia was trashed by war with Ylisse and then an invasion from Valm, present Plegia has had a largely blood-free revolution followed by no Valm war whatsoever, and then nearly 100% of their population was offered up.

I can answer that: Grima himself is the reason, and it's not that it took Grima so long in the future, it's that it took him so short in the present.

Grima in the future had to simply rely on Giraffe Dad doing everything to revive him along the natural flow of time. Present Grima got revived quicker because Future Grima came back and meddled with the timeline to keep Lucina in check and expedite his own revival.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Well, it's less of an issue of how quickly he got revived and more of an issue of how long it took him to regain his power after being revived. Future Grima took a long time- around 10 years. Present Grima presumably took much less (though we don't know for sure, as he never does anything and gets wiped out pretty fast).

[Anomalocaris]

Wait, how do we know it took future Grima around 10 years to reach his full power?

I assumed the future was such a wasteland because it had a full-power Grima floating about doing as he pleased for 10 years.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Anomalocaris

[Czar_Yoshi]

Well, the future children are somewhere around 18-20 years old, with some of those years spent in a prolonged Valm war and some spent after that. I just divided it up around half and half, so that's why I say 10- it could have been 15 and 5, or something. There has to be at least some time for the childrens' parents to get picked off one by one, though. And the mental state they're (at least implied to be) in indicates that it didn't happen yesterday.

As to why he's probably not at full power, look at the cutscene of his attack on future Ylisstol. If he could do that right off the bat, why wouldn't he? He can fly, it's not like anyone could have done anything to stop him.

[Anomalocaris]

To be honest, it wouldn't surprise me if he took his time flying around the world from major population center to major population center "playing with his food", so to speak. The future kids seem pretty well-traveled so I assume they had been around the continents a few times fighting Risen/fleeing Grima before that scene in Ylisstol.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Perhaps he did. We don't actually know anything about what the population centers in Awakening's world look like, he might have had plenty of good hunting, or just small villages the whole continent across.

The future kids definitely are well-traveled, though- it's known that they've at least been to Plegia prior to coming back.

[Cquel]

He really made an identical copy of personal annotations?

He also could have assumed that was why he had it, seeing as if it was from the future, he wouldn't know anyway and would just have to guess.

While in real life, it could very easily be just another unique book he happens to have two copies of, this is a story and is thus subject to the law of conservation of detail. Why bother having two sets of identical books that are described in exactly the same way and would make sense being assumed to be the same if they were, in fact, completely random? And they weren't even developed remotely separately- in NA, FP1 and HSS were released on the same day.

Since that's what he said we have no reason not to believe him. As I said Morgan(M) doesn't seem to lie and when he does he is often caught doing so. On top of that Morgan is known to reread books and shown to care a lot about the books that Robin gives them so it would be hard or out of character for them to make a copy. Robin is also known to have multiple books with annotations in them, just look at Lissa's support, so its hard to say what book they gave Morgan in FP. Just because they are both books doesn't mean they're the same.

Also why does it matter that the two came out at the same time in NA? Are you saying that NA changed the story of the two to imply some kind of connection?

Honestly the main problem that I have with Morgan being from FP is with how the game ends. If you have Robin kill Grima then they disappears because they have Grima's blood in them. But if Morgan came from FP then wouldn't that mean that they also have Grima's blood and that they should have disappears to? The only way I can see it working is if the Morgan you recruit from FP originally came form a different timeline and ended up in FP first. However you said that FP was based on a failed version of our own which would mean the Morgan from a different timeline would be the one with the same gender as you, the one that you do not give the book to.

Again I am probably reading to much into it or missing something important so please point out anything that you find wrong.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Cquel

[Jotari]

Morgan has two versions of a book because he was given one in his own future and in the present. Just because we see another Morgan being given one in Future Past doesn't mean it's our Morgan. Robins just have a habit of handing out books to Morgans.

Also I feel like stressing that almost everything about the original timeline would be different since Robin's memory loss is caused by Future Grima trying to merge with him. Without that memory loss Robin would be an entirely different character, one raised to believe he is an evil dragon god. He might still have the same personality for the most part but his experiences and interactions would be very different. For a start he wouldn't have met Chrom lying down unconscious in the middle of a field.

Also do we have a time frame on how long Yen'Fey has been working for Walhart? His change of allegiance could be due to Ylisse entering the war and thus desiring a united continent to fight off what he sees as an invading force (even if Walhart started the conflict). I'd also buy the idea he met one of the kids and learned about the threat of the Grimleal and wanted a united continent to combat them. Apparently that's the reason Walhart started his whole conquering business in the first place anyway. The kids also have a potential five years to be wandering the world looking for their parents, we know Laurent arrived first five years ago but there's nothing to stop the likes of Germoe or Brady to have arrived a few years before Lucina too so I don't think their relative positions on the continent would affect much (though thinking of it logically why any of the kids are on Valm, especially the once that can fly is a bit weird since they should know their parents are from Ylisse).

Edited February 17, 2016 by Jotari

[Czar_Yoshi]

Since that's what he said we have no reason not to believe him. As I said Morgan(M) doesn't seem to lie and when he does he is often caught doing so. On top of that Morgan is known to reread books and shown to care a lot about the books that Robin gives them so it would be hard or out of character for them to make a copy. Robin is also known to have multiple books with annotations in them, just look at Lissa's support, so its hard to say what book they gave Morgan in FP. Just because they are both books doesn't mean they're the same.

Also why does it matter that the two came out at the same time in NA? Are you saying that NA changed the story of the two to imply some kind of connection?

Honestly the main problem that I have with Morgan being from FP is with how the game ends. If you have Robin kill Grima then they disappears because they have Grima's blood in them. But if Morgan came from FP then wouldn't that mean that they also have Grima's blood and that they should have disappears to? The only way I can see it working is if the Morgan you recruit from FP originally came form a different timeline and ended up in FP first. However you said that FP was based on a failed version of our own which would mean the Morgan from a different timeline would be the one with the same gender as you, the one that you do not give the book to.

Again I am probably reading to much into it or missing something important so please point out anything that you find wrong.

It's not an issue of him lying. If he had two copies on him when he came back, but no memory of how he got them, he'd probably just assume that's why he has them. It's totally in character and way simpler than "my time-travelling, world-hopping mom came and gave the other to me".

Lissa's support just mentions a new book- it doesn't say anything about there being multiple copies. In fact, if there were multiple copies, Robin probably wouldn't be so mad at her.

I cited the release date to show they were developed at the same time, and thus similarities are much less likely to be differences.

Robin disappearing in the ending: it's not Grima's blood, it's actually being Grima, they're the same person. Validar is pretty clear that even though he himself has a ton of Grima blood, he's not Grima, but Robin is. Morgan just isn't either.

FP Morgan's gender: there are two Morgans in FP, one male and one female. The one with a different gender than yours recognizes Robin as Grima and warps away, but Robin doesn't recognize them. The one with the same gender as your Morgan (aka the Morgan you recruit) Robin recognizes, stops them before they warp away, and talks with for a while.

An important point I'd like to reiterate is the law of conservation of detail: in real life, it would be quite easy to assume the two books are a coincidence. This is not so in a story, because those events had to be inserted deliberately and thus have a reason for being in the story. So it's not a question of whether it's easier to assume the two books are a coincidence, it's a question of whether it makes more sense to assume the writers put the books in completely by accident, or because they wanted to demonstrate Morgan's past. While this isn't technically proof that Morgan did come from the future, it's an implication, and it answers questions- it makes more sense and furthers the narrative if it's true than it does if it's a coincidence.

Morgan has two versions of a book because he was given one in his own future and in the present. Just because we see another Morgan being given one in Future Past doesn't mean it's our Morgan. Robins just have a habit of handing out books to Morgans.

Also I feel like stressing that almost everything about the original timeline would be different since Robin's memory loss is caused by Future Grima trying to merge with him. Without that memory loss Robin would be an entirely different character, one raised to believe he is an evil dragon god. He might still have the same personality for the most part but his experiences and interactions would be very different. For a start he wouldn't have met Chrom lying down unconscious in the middle of a field.

Also do we have a time frame on how long Yen'Fey has been working for Walhart? His change of allegiance could be due to Ylisse entering the war and thus desiring a united continent to fight off what he sees as an invading force (even if Walhart started the conflict). I'd also buy the idea he met one of the kids and learned about the threat of the Grimleal and wanted a united continent to combat them. Apparently that's the reason Walhart started his whole conquering business in the first place anyway. The kids also have a potential five years to be wandering the world looking for their parents, we know Laurent arrived first five years ago but there's nothing to stop the likes of Germoe or Brady to have arrived a few years before Lucina too so I don't think their relative positions on the continent would affect much (though thinking of it logically why any of the kids are on Valm, especially the once that can fly is a bit weird since they should know their parents are from Ylisse).

Yeah, but if you're assuming Morgan was given the book in the future, there's no reason why it wouldn't be the FP future- assuming it was a different one answers nothing, adds more complexity and isn't implied anywhere.

Lucina's future (the original timeline) is very different. Valm held off their invasion, the war with Plegia lasted much longer, etc. FP is identical to the player's timeline up until the point of the game over. So yes, that's true.

He never changed allegiance in any timeline. He started neutral, just the lord of Chon'sin. In the present, he sided with Walhart when Walhart came knocking, in Lucina's future he opposed him. This probably happened around when the game's Plegia arc occurs, since Virion escapes from Rosanne shortly before. Him meeting one of the children in the present and deciding to protect Say'ri as a result is possible, but there's also not much suggesting it other than that it makes sense.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Czar_Yoshi

[Cquel]

But isn't that just the assumption that you are making rather than one Morgan would make? I would differently believe you if it was just Morgan(f) but since Morgan(m) says something different its harder to believe. Plus doesn't Morgan remember everything about Robin? It would be kinda weird for them to forget that Robin gave them that book when they remember everything else about them. I remember Morgan saying that they weren't sure that the future was in ruins when you recruit them and im sure that is because of their memories of Robin.

The two DLC were released at different times in Japan though, almost a month apart. The NA dates doesn't show a story or development connection. The two being part of the same bundle does a bit though so its something to consider.

Wasn't Robin created through experimenting on Grima blood though? So if his blood still lives on in Morgan then someone could recreate Grima right? That kinda ruin the only real choice we have in the game.

Isn't the law of conservation of detail more of a TV and movie thing? I just finished watching a show called Gravity Falls early this week that used it to great affect. Im not saying that it can not be used in video game just that they have a set of problems to deal with that other media doesn't have. One of the main problems with using it games is the fact each player doesn't see the content in the same order and there by can come up with different conclusions biased on their experience. Im not saying that this isn't being used here but since you can also kill Morgan in FP it kinda makes it hard to say that they came from there.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Cquel