Fates Character Opinions Survey Tier List; Revelations Survey Up

[Jedi]

Elise has no business being in the front at this point in the map. She's the best DVeiner you've got right there. Alternatively, Azura, if you want Elise to ferry someone up to the Apothecaries like Kaze or someone

She's sick for this map remember?

[Elieson]

Elise isn't even IN this map.

Oh yea

Azura then, hurp. I did it with Azura I remember, and I haven't even used Elise for a while anyway around that stage of the game. <Elie is a Space Cadet>.

Camilla/Silas/Peri/Beruka/SkyKnight!Selena were all I needed for the plethora of OHKOs, and Kaze supporting Corrin for +1 mov, got me to kill them all, plus get in range to aggro the lancers on I think turn 7

DreadFighter!Arthur shuffled Azura up to the team on the next turn

Edited February 29, 2016 by Elieson

[Shephen]

Nothing is stopping us from using both Camilla and Paladin!Jakob. If Jakob can do most of the same things as Camilla aside from flight then that is fantastic since Camilla is amazing. Paladin!Jakob can still do stuff in the late game since he still has 8 move, high Str and access to effective weaponry. If nothing else he can set up double refreshes. And given how amazing his early-mid game is, a lack-luster late game isn't much of a reason to not use him(aside from if you go Male Corrin).

[DoesntKnowHowToPlay]

Like, in chapter 10, with +3 str from levelups, a Str tonic and a +1 Iron Lance, she OHKOs every non-named enemy on the map except the onis (who you wouldn't put her against anyway).

Effie joins at level 6 with 13 Strength; three Strength levels gets her to 16.

Tonic brings her to 18 Str.

A +1 Iron Lance has 9 Mt I believe?

This puts her at 27 Attack, with a further +3 if Puissance activates.

Things visible from the start of Chapter 10 on Hard:

Spear Fighters with 25 HP and 10 Defense (that sometimes have Seal Defense...)

Ninjas with 23 HP and 6 Defense (and 1-2 range weapons, but do die to Puissance on player phase)

Oni Savages with 28 HP and 11 Defense (and axes)

Archers with 24 HP and 8 Defense (and range...and WTA)

Sky Knights with 23 HP and 7 Defense...which won't always attack your units and instead beeline the Defend point. In particular they will never attack Effie if she has gained even one point of Defense, as they only have 15 Attack and her base Defense is 12+2.

Maybe the chapter is easier on Normal? I just don't see her helping much here with your prep compared to Silas, who gets comparable bulk (free +3 Def from intrinsic Vow of Friendship if Corrin stays injured), comparable offense, and can actually move around; an important property on this Defense chapter with no good chokepoints, an understaffed army, and four villages to hit.

[FEF]

Maybe the chapter is easier on Normal? I just don't see her helping much here with your prep compared to Silas, who gets comparable bulk (free +3 Def from intrinsic Vow of Friendship if Corrin stays injured), comparable offense, and can actually move around; an important property on this Defense chapter with no good chokepoints, an understaffed army, and four villages to hit.

Silas gets another important bonus that Effie doesn't - access to Effie for pair-up.

[joshcja]

Josh

The difference between funneling your EXP into bottom tier shit like Mozu for days, and funneling into upper tier units like Effie is huge. You literally do not need to spend any time wasting to grind Effie up. I don't see why you aren't getting this.

Deploy Camilla/Beruka/Silas/Effie/Elise/GK!Jakob-or-Str!Felicia and the game basically plays itself after you fullmove everyone and pairup+drop one unit who kills way harder at base than Silas and Beruka after 4 levels. That's like 1/2 of your deployment slots, too.

It's seriously not grinding as much as it "efficient play rewards you with a powerful Effie". It's not like grinding Mozu or Amelia at all.

Like, in chapter 10, with +3 str from levelups, a Str tonic and a +1 Iron Lance, she OHKOs every non-named enemy on the map except the onis (who you wouldn't put her against anyway). She and Camilla are the only units in the game who get this. Effie doesn't stop growing and the game just lets it keep working because of AttackStance strikes allowing her to help those who aren't strong (in a game where enemies are rarely OHKO'd) to finish off and get some EXP themselves.

Silias does the same thing on ch10 at 7 move and also nails oni's, minibosses, and takasshat. Just let corin take damage and toss a unit on him. He can facedive the entire chapter on lunatic with no healing/minimal healing depending on your setup and growths. Its the fastest possible clear and lets you feed the units who have the exact same combat potential as effie but far far more utility and free even better units.

He then proceeds to make a unit that's better than effie will ever be giving you the best of both worlds.

Edit: Example of growing not effie on lunatic: my current ch23 efficiency strat is, odin picks up corin and walks left with a dance and rally magic, she orkoes the entire left side of the map for shits and giggles with nos sans the spdef spead guys who just pull her closer to the gate (while pulling the reinforcements away from the main group) and while the other mooks capture a free rallybot and odin uses his 70%+ critrate 1 hp and vengance along with the vanage he picked up for free on the ch22 mooks to solo most of the chestside room while oboro gets entrapped and murdered with the spearmagic guys. Ophelia solos the gate group on EP while odin rigged VVcritspams the top because im greedy (VV crit is almost 100% on him im just rigging hitrates). niles/nina take chests while odin ohkos takasshat with lightning and gets danced to seize and while other mooks take the scraps.

Its a 4 turn clear on that route, the LTC route just 3 turns because max move limitations QQ. (it would be a 2 turn but azura would die and I ran out of kidnapped shelterbot sac fodder and im hoarding rescue uses for endgame).

I somehow doubt effie can improve on that. (reminder I wasted no turns training odin/arthur, they've done nothing but shave turns tbh)

Edited March 16, 2016 by joshcja

[Shadow Mir]

WRT Silas, is Vow of Friendship really all that practical??? I'd assume no, since going around with your main character having one foot in the grave sounds like a big no-no, if you ask me,..

[Espinosa]

WRT Silas, is Vow of Friendship really all that practical??? I'd assume no, since going around with your main character having one foot in the grave sounds like a big no-no, if you ask me,..

If they have good bulk and are in no danger of dying then it could assist in some particular situations like LTC runs.

[Shephen]

Corrin doesn't even need to be adjacent or near Silas for Vow of Friendship to proc either which gives some more flexibility. Also stacks with Corrin's personal. So you could just have Corrin injure themselves and then have Silas Shelter them for the EP. Not anything ground breaking in terms of usefulness, but can have its moments.

[Elieson]

Effie joins at level 6 with 13 Strength; three Strength levels gets her to 16.

Tonic brings her to 18 Str.

A +1 Iron Lance has 9 Mt I believe?

This puts her at 27 Attack, with a further +3 if Puissance activates.

Things visible from the start of Chapter 10 on Hard:

Spear Fighters with 25 HP and 10 Defense (that sometimes have Seal Defense...)

Ninjas with 23 HP and 6 Defense (and 1-2 range weapons, but do die to Puissance on player phase)

Oni Savages with 28 HP and 11 Defense (and axes)

Archers with 24 HP and 8 Defense (and range...and WTA)

Sky Knights with 23 HP and 7 Defense...which won't always attack your units and instead beeline the Defend point. In particular they will never attack Effie if she has gained even one point of Defense, as they only have 15 Attack and her base Defense is 12+2.

Maybe the chapter is easier on Normal? I just don't see her helping much here with your prep compared to Silas, who gets comparable bulk (free +3 Def from intrinsic Vow of Friendship if Corrin stays injured), comparable offense, and can actually move around; an important property on this Defense chapter with no good chokepoints, an understaffed army, and four villages to hit.

I probably didn't log my shit all that well then. All I know is I got all 4 villages with relative ease, killed Takumi and had Effie exactly OHKO'ing the Iron/Steel yumi archers that spawned in with Silas support (maybe it was B at this point idr even). I didn't route the entire map I left one Ninja alive but other than that it was a clear among clears, getting the Dshield on turn 10 and everything else much sooner

Sending Effie to battle anythign with Seal Defense is suicide but there's no reason you should

Also I haven't booted the game up on any difficulty other than Hard so like I said I'm just remember things incorrectly

*Edit* I must have been thinking about the Silas pairup and just forgot to note it. In my situation, she OHKO'd with the iron lance only with the help but gained levels along the way allowing her to drop Silas and have him help towards the end. It's situational I guess ugh

---

*More edit

Silias does the same thing on ch10 at 7 move and also nails oni's, minibosses, and takasshat. Just let corin take damage and toss a unit on him. He can facedive the entire chapter on lunatic with no healing/minimal healing depending on your setup and growths. Its the fastest possible clear and lets you feed the units who have the exact same combat potential as effie but far far more utility and free even better units.

He then proceeds to make a unit that's better than effie will ever be giving you the best of both worlds.

Who's better than Effie, especially on Lunatic, at this point?

Nyx? Her durability will kill her all by itself without the most dedicated babying

Arthur? He's alright but a high risk unit that isn't doing anything spectacular other than whiffing with anything but Bronze weaponry probably

Mozu? Let's not joke around here.

Elise/Azura? They're utility and don't really count

Odin? Maybe, if you have him Nos-tank the Onis here but he needs training and by this point hasn't had it yet. Long-Term this could be a worthwhile investment but he has a rut to climb out of.

Niles/Selena maybe but they're far from facedive potential, and Beruka's too slow even with a speed tonic and speed supports to double anything until maybe building an S with a Ninja (Kaze) and getting pretty blessed in speed. Niles is never tanking.

You're left with Effie, Silas, Camilla and Jakob/Felicia (and yourself), to really ponder advantages with here. I'm not saying that these guys are bad and even the units mentioned above have their rightful place in the tier list, but if you're not utilizing Effie because you think she's an EXP well that never gives back what she takes because she takes too much time to get going like Mozu, it's just not the case.

Also, if you're this concerned about Silas's prowess especially being above Effie, then why aren't you arguing that, instead of saying Effie should be trash tier for [your reasons]?

Edited February 29, 2016 by Elieson

[Jedi]

It's cute bringing up kids and all @The thread in general, but they are not the topic of discussion as of right now.

It's how the units you have without any kids in the mix work currently, maybe when we discuss gen 2 we can discuss absurdly min-maxed kid strats at absurdly short times notice due to support grinding.

[Ema Skye]

As someone who voted for Effie in S, here's my two cents.

Pre Camilla, she's the best offensive unit in a Male Corrin run (which is the only run I've played at this point and the only one I have any experience with and this is dependent on Corrin's class). In her join map, Ch7, her mov is absolutely irrelevant given the close quarters nature of the map. Silas, Arthur and Felicia can only take two hits max from anyone, but Effie chokes the point and performs ridiculous damage (with an attack stance, she's usually KOing). Chapter 8 isn't great considering she has to move fast and she obviously can't, but she's still your offensive juggernaut (since she's the best combat unit in Ch7, you want her near the front lines to beat the guys. Once she gets to the guy, their dead and this makes her a prime target for pair up chains. Chapter 9 is better considering the map is small and she doesn't have much to travel. Defense seal seems problematic but remember if she can kill them, it doesn't activate. So put her in an attack stance with someone like Arthur or Silas and the seal will never go off.

Camilla comes around in Ch10 but Effie is still the second best unit here. Javelin lets her OHKO the ninjas and lance fighters with an attack stance. The side by Hinata and the Dual Club house pretty much has her name on it considering that the enemies are just Samurai, Lance Fighters and Ninjas which she can easily beat with an attack stance (I haven't done the map in a while, but I wouldn't be surprised if an Arthur pair up alongside a tonic would land the OHKO on the Spear Fighters; a forge would certainly cement it too).

Basically, as someone who hasn't experienced the awesomeness of Paladin!Jakob, I don't want to imagine going through the early game without Effie. She's that essential.

[joshcja]

Odin eats no turns if you ignore mozu and will gain enough exp to face dive the openign group of seal def spears on ch9 and the ch10 oni/ninja swarm with mag/def pots, after that he's nothing but saved turns without ever actually ruining the early game exp pool the way some of the other early tanks can.

Another note on silias, if you let your absolutely overleveled corin take damage on turn 1 of every early map andjust shark kills/pairup exp till the curve catches up silias completely replicates/outclasses GK jakobs contributions with much earlier 1-2 range.

#thingseffiecannotdo

Edit: @ kids comment, discussing how good/bad individual kids are can wait but its safe to state that they will be better than their gen 1 competitors if you get them intelligently. That said producing them at all is absolutely a point in their parents favor especially if the paralouge in question gives a huge return on the resources used to start up the unit (read: odin and niles).

Edit: @ Levant, vow is absurdly easy to set up and is entirely practical, corin is either invincibur in dragonstone or is a frail sweeping unit at this point in the game. Either way its easy to trigger and does not negatively affect corins personal exp curve. Even if it did ch15 exists. Hell most maps have really obvious intentional vow trigger points starting at ch7, silias literally walks onto the map with vow active.

Edited February 29, 2016 by joshcja

[-Cynthia-]

While I think Gunter is a little underrated currently, I don't think he's anywhere close to Effie(well unless you count him being pretty necessary for Chapter 3, but usually only post route split stuff is counted?). He doesn't have enough Str to OHKO things and he's never doubling so that's pretty underwhelming. Good def, but low Spd gets him doubled a lot and his Res is bad. Combined with low growths I don't think he has much use as a frontline unit pretty much ever.

His personal skill is cool, but Felicia and Jakob can fill a similar role and sometimes the durability is better than more offense. Flying with Shelter is also cool I suppose, but that does take a Heart Seal. I'd probably put him in C tier or so.

[Shadow Mir]

Edit: @ Levant, vow is absurdly easy to set up and is entirely practical, corin is either invincibur in dragonstone or is a frail sweeping unit at this point in the game. Either way its easy to trigger and does not negatively affect corins personal exp curve. Even if it did ch15 exists. Hell most maps have really obvious intentional vow trigger points starting at ch7, silias literally walks onto the map with vow active.

That's easy for you to say... Not that I'm convinced.

[General Banzai]

Hoshido gives tons of frontline units. There is Corrin, first joining Jakob, Subaki, Silas, Saizo, Hinoka, Oboro, Hinata, Kaden, Scarlett and Ryoma. All of these units don't have to deal with staff lock and E-ranks and are immediate combat units. And if hp is your concern you can just give them tonics since they are basically nothing in Birthright. Also Rinka gives a good chunck of def with Guard Stance in addition to her Str bonuses.

It's not like being a dedicated healer early on is a bad thing. Many of the frontline units you mentioned have major statistical flaws in one category or another. Azama with bronze will outstrip the offense of at least half of them with much better weapons, and he's a much better tank than most of them too.

[Djing]

You can't expect the Avatar to never be below half health can you Levant?. The opportunity will come when it comes.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Spaceman Craig

[FatesLunatic]

Odin eats no turns if you ignore mozu and will gain enough exp to face dive the openign group of seal def spears on ch9 and the ch10 oni/ninja swarm with mag/def pots, after that he's nothing but saved turns without ever actually ruining the early game exp pool the way some of the other early tanks can.

Another note on silias, if you let your absolutely overleveled corin take damage on turn 1 of every early map andjust shark kills/pairup exp till the curve catches up silias completely replicates/outclasses GK jakobs contributions with much earlier 1-2 range.

#thingseffiecannotdo

Edit: @ kids comment, discussing how good/bad individual kids are can wait but its safe to state that they will be better than their gen 1 competitors if you get them intelligently. That said producing them at all is absolutely a point in their parents favor especially if the paralouge in question gives a huge return on the resources used to start up the unit (read: odin and niles).

Edit: @ Levant, vow is absurdly easy to set up and is entirely practical, corin is either invincibur in dragonstone or is a frail sweeping unit at this point in the game. Either way its easy to trigger and does not negatively affect corins personal exp curve. Even if it did ch15 exists. Hell most maps have really obvious intentional vow trigger points starting at ch7, silias literally walks onto the map with vow active.

I'm finding nos tanking odin saving turns a really hard concept to grasp, especially when you claim it can be done in lunatic, he saves turns, and he doesn't ruin the exp pool. I don't think I can be convinced with words, given odin's poor growths and nos not really stealing that much hp back with odin's piss growths. I'm interpreting facetanking to literally mean the same shit as was in lunatic mode of awakening where a dark mage/sorc would facetank the entire game.

Vids/Screens/pics of this happening would also be appreciated.

Edited March 1, 2016 by FatesLunatic

[Aggro Incarnate]

I'm not sure about Conquest Hard but in Conquest Lunatic I found Mozu to be quite useful when immediately reclassed into an archer. Of course she needs some EXP feeding at first, but Paralogue 1, Invasion 1 and Chapter 9 can be utilised to feed Mozu exp and get her up to Lv. 10 prior to Chapter 10 without sacrificing too much exp for other units. since chances are Mozu would be behind levels compared to the rest of the team. Lv. 10 is when she learns Quick Draw as an archer, which gives +4 damage in the player phase when she initiates combat. Being able to use all 3 ballistas makes Chapter 10 a lot smoother and less RNG dependent; she helps out so much with those damned paired pegasi/wyvern that gets thrown in for Chapters 10, 13 and 14, and having 2-archers make Percy's Paralogue quite reliable in destroying Wyverns even in Conquest Lunatic. By midgame she'll likely become similar to Niles but with higher STR and SKL, similar SPD but with lower RES and MOV. She's also a very good spouse option for Niles since she gives Niles access to Sniper/Kinshi Knight; the archer class set is just quite nice with Quick Draw, the Sniper skills (Certain Blow and Bowfaire) makes bow-users extremely useful in terms of damage and accuracy, and Kinshi Knight as a flying bow unit can be very useful for certain maps (Chapters 19 23 24, Siegbert's Paralogue, Ignatius' Paralogue), not to mention that extra bit of healing that Amaterasu provides. Conversely she gets the Outlaw base class from Niles; Movement +1 and Shurikenbreaker (bowknight), though situational, can be very useful. She can also pass down aptitude to Nina, though how useful of a decision that is can be arguable given its nerf from Awakening.

I do agree though that the utility of Mozu is going to depend on playing style, foreknowledge and conscious decisions; for one she's more useful for me because I tend to rely heavily on the player phase. But she does make one of best use of the various buffs archers got in this Fates, given the lack of ally unit Takumi in Conquest; wielders of high-accuracy, high-might ranged physical weapons that can reliably double, supplemented by skills that highlight their assets (well, the Hoshidan archer class at least) especially useful for eliminating enemies in the player phase. (Her flaw in this regard is not being able to effectively make use of the Shining Bow) In this light Mozu functions decently as an Est if you have a good plan for her; she's not quite the tank and the damage dealing unit that some of the other cast in Conquest are, and evidently she doesn't enjoy the killager status that Donnel had, but she leads to certain strats that are quite stable with respect to RNG, and hence she is more useful on higher difficulties (somehow opposite to Donnel). Hence I'd rank her as a C for consideration in Conquest, since methinks she deserves better than Odin; while arguably Odin can be a good Nosfertank early game, methinks the funds can better go to somewhere else, and there are better units reclassed into sorcerer afterwards.

Also as someone said above buying a bronze axe can be one of the best decisions for early game. Arthur can capitalise upon the relative high accuracy given that the iron axe / hand axe only gives around 70~80% accuracy. Giving that bronze axe to Camilla immediately in Chapter 10 can be extremely handy since steel axe and thunder might lead to misses at critical moments, and you don't want Camilla to miss ANYTHING in Chapter 10, especially in Lunatic mode; Effie with a Javelin is already enough RNG given the number of Oni Savages in that chapter (obviuosly weapon triangle doesn't prefer this, but this strat reliably destroys so many enemies on the right in the enemy phase in Lunatic), and Camilla needs to destroy as many units as possible by Turn 9, including both Hinata (with help of the Dual Club) and Oboro (1RKO with the bronze or iron axe when paired up with Beruka, so that she doesn't get Strength/Defense-sealed), preferably prior to the Takumi Dragon Vein activation in Turn 7, and also handle some very tricky enemies like that paired ninja and the onis to the left from Turns 9-11, and this is when you really don't want RNG to screw over.

Finally I second Effie being really good, especially in early game when using a Female avatar. Elise's Lily's Poise and Jakob's Gentilhomme, supplemented with a good pair-up makes her extremeley tanky. With all of these buffs, on top of that perhaps giving her the Bronze Naginata from Azura or Mozu, she can take so many hits and tank enemies even while defense sealed (Yes, even with the -6 DEF she can tank!). If one's having problems manipulating the AI because she takes no damage, then one can remove these buff one by one; the Bronze Naginata, Jakob, Elise, or the pair-up that gives +DEF. If RNG doesn't screw her over she'll have high STR as well, and her changing between different weaponry (Bronze Naginata, Bronze Lance, Iron Lance, Javelin, and if her weapon rank allows the Steel Lance as well) allows one to control precisely how much damage one can deal, which is extremely helpful in giving kills to other ally units. Movement, of course, can be compensated later by class-changing her into Great Knight, although she's better off getting Wary Fighter before heart-sealing to Great Knight. RNG will decide how helpful she will be later in the game though, especially with her HP, STR and DEF gains. I'd rank her A since she's got great availability, functions high-DEF and STR unit that can use ranged attacks (Flannel is the better HP tank/damage dealer but can only do 1-range attacks), and doesn't get doubled due to Wary Fighter and will be vital at certain pivotal moments of Conquest at higher difficulties, especially early on in the game, though she's not as stably guaranteed to be good in terms of utility as Camilla or a well-developed Avatar later in the game.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Aggro Incarnate

[Shadow Mir]

You can't expect the Avatar to never be below half health can you Levant?. The opportunity will come when it comes.

It's the part where I have to leave my main character at or below half health AND deliberately leave them unhealed that makes me consider it anywhere ranging from questionable at best to idiotic at worst.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[joshcja]

I'm finding nos tanking odin saving turns a really hard concept to grasp, especially when you claim it can be done in lunatic, he saves turns, and he doesn't ruin the exp pool. I don't think I can be convinced with words, given odin's poor growths and nos not really stealing that much hp back with odin's piss growths. I'm interpreting facetanking to literally mean the same shit as was in lunatic mode of awakening where a dark mage/sorc would facetank the entire game.

Vids/Screens/pics of this happening would also be appreciated.

50%ish hp/def/mad/speed/skill with a usable res growth is honestly very good by this games standards, odin will generally have higher magic than leo at the same level and overlevels his boss considerably on leo's join chapter.

Exp spread is left unchanged because unlike camilia/silias odin tends to not kill everything in his immediate vicinity when tanking (he does manage it a few times lategame with lolfreevantagecritspam though, the big contribution there being ch23) Its actually extremely useful, but the setups to properly abuse it can be pretty elaborate.

Earliest Possible example of odin being useful, because I am not buying a capture card to argue that "nos is good in fire emblem"

Odin will on average gain one of every actually important stat every 2 levels and will go into ch9 around level 9 without sacrificing turns giving him something resembling 12-13 magic 28-29 hp and 15-16 def after pairup and pots.

Lance users after seal def and have WTA but will just barely fail to kill if you trick one of them into hitting corin+single rn crit arthur in the face as dual gaurd will proc on the lethal hit, this triggers vow and puts silias on pace to hit azura's dragon vein window and clear the map as quickly as the less efficient ponyjakob would and allows niles to hit the north chest on time as the AI fails to realize nos healing exists and will just pile on odin with proper positioning. He's also pretty good at soloing the bossbox archers for consistency and level 11+ malific aura by ch10 which sets him up to masstank oni's without pots on efficiency (he can just barely orko them with a nyx pairup and a single mag orb shot from camilia)/pull the mooks and miniboss out of silias's way and actualy survive if you just want to get outa there.

Its a neutral turncount but its just way better setup for the mid/lategame.

Probably the first place nostanking actually starts hard saving turns rather than granting more efficiency is in scarlets chapter, odin can just eat the entire righthand side of the map and all but one of the paired draco's in about 3 turns total which is about how long it takes for the rest of the army to pile the left side around VoF cavalier silias who gets to tank a pair of beastkillers and a calamity gate to the face (both beastkillers are on the same turn) as he sprits to te boss area, promotes at 20, and orkoes the boss and her mooks. Its a pretty decent all village clear for lunatic mode.

Edit: Nvm ch12 is first use, if you can half hp corin imediately and plow throught the ninja swarm with forged javalin ohkos off a VoF silias to burn the gold bar apothacry and get entrapped with a key, odin can get carried up to nostank orko the half hp archer swarm off his WTA in ch12 with an 80% dual gaurd gauge and just off initial orko hp as long as corin triggers the point and hits her def growth to take no damage with dragon stone. he's then in walking distance of rigged crit ohkoing ryoma. That setup can save uuuh, one turn or get both chests.

He really only shaves a handful of turns directly (on lunatic) but the efficiency gained from using him adds up over time and just snowballs on ch13/14 when an early 20/20 parent ophelia enters the picture (if you want a unit that can awakening style nos she's the one) and the hilarious paralouge loot easily pays for odins startup while providing uniques like... giveing leo the luxury of actual hitting his speed growths so speedwings can go to xander to et up a few nice immediate turnshaves, and granting brave access well before the game ever intended it to happen allows for real fun in the runup to ch21 where packing trip mages with trip lightning is an absolute godsend and turns the chapter into free feeding frenzy time.

TL:DR shit gets complicated fast and there is rng rigging involved but it works.

That said I do tend to internalize the indirect gains/ophelias gains as odins. Mostly because none of it happens at all without him. Keep in mind I'm not saying he's Srank material (B rank on his own merits, mid A on his indirect contributions), but he has no place at the bottom of the bin.

Edit: Holy crap effie actually, on average, misses the benchmark for orkoing stonies on lunatic ch21 without stacked boosts and her full 14 possible thwomp levelups or every single str tonic on an early promo. No investment and hand holding my ass. I'll stick with bottom tier odin thanks.

Edited March 1, 2016 by joshcja

[Djing]

It's the part where I have to leave my main character at or below half health AND deliberately leave them unhealed that makes me consider it anywhere ranging from questionable at best to idiotic at worst.

Or you can change the order of operations and attack with Silas before you heal the Avatar.

Or you you can put the Avatar behind guard stance while Silas puts in work.

There's benefits to thinking outside the box once in a while.

[FatesLunatic]

50%ish hp/def/mad/speed/skill with a usable res growth is honestly very good by this games standards, odin will generally have higher magic than leo at the same level and overlevels his boss considerably on leo's join chapter.

Exp spread is left unchanged because unlike camilia/silias odin tends to not kill everything in his immediate vicinity when tanking (he does manage it a few times lategame with lolfreevantagecritspam though, the big contribution there being ch23) Its actually extremely useful, but the setups to properly abuse it can be pretty elaborate.

Earliest Possible example of odin being useful, because I am not buying a capture card to argue that "nos is good in fire emblem"

Odin will on average gain one of every actually important stat every 2 levels and will go into ch9 around level 9 without sacrificing turns giving him something resembling 12-13 magic 28-29 hp and 15-16 def after pairup and pots.

Lance users after seal def and WTA will just barely fail to kill if you trick one of them into hitting corin+single rn crit arthur in the face as dual gaurd will proc on the lethal hit, this triggers vow and puts silias on the same pace to clear the map as the less efficient ponyjakob would be as the AI fails to realize nos healing exists and will just pile on odin with proper positioning.

Its a neutral turncount but its just way better setup for the mid/lategame.

Probably the first place nostanking actually starts hard saving turns rather than granting more efficiency is in scarlets chapter, odin can just eat the entire righthand side of the map and all but one of the paired draco's in about 3 turns total which is about how long it takes for the rest of the army to pile the left side around VoF cavalier silias who gets to tank a pair of beastkillers and a calamity gate to the face (both beastkillers are on the same turn) as he sprits to te boss area, promotes at 20, and orkoes the boss and her mooks. Its a pretty decent all village clear for lunatic mode.

Edit: Nvm ch12 is first use, if you can half hp corin imediately and plow throught the ninja swarm with forged javalin ohkos off a VoF silias to burn the gold bar apothacry and get entrapped with a key, odin can get carried up to nostank orko the half hp archer swarm off his WTA in ch12 with an 80% dual gaurd gauge and just off initial orko hp as long as corin triggers the point and hits her def growth to take no damage with dragon stone. he's then in walking distance of rigged crit ohkoing ryoma. That setup can save uuuh, one turn or get both chests.

He really only shaves a handful of turns directly (on lunatic) but the efficiency gained from using him adds up over time and just snowballs on ch13/14 when an early 20/20 parent ophelia enters the picture (if you want a unit that can awakening style nos she's the one) and the hilarious paralouge loot gives leo the luxury of actual hitting his speed growths so speedwings can go to xander setting up a few nice immediate turnshaves, and granting brave access well before the game ever intended it to happen allows for real fun in the runup to ch21 where packing trip mages with trip lightning is an absolute godsend (fun fact 30 str forged blessed lance fails to ohko stonies there)

TL:DR shit gets complicated fast and there is rng rigging involved but it works.

That said I do tend to internalize the indirect gains/ophelias gains as odins. Mostly because none of it happens at all without him. Keep in mind I'm not saying he's Srank material (B rank on his own merits, mid A on his indirect contributions), but he has no place at the bottom of the bin.

Here's what I got. From Serenes

Base: Lvl 5

21 hp

8 mag

10 skill

7 speed

9 luck

6 def

7 res

Lvl 9

22.6hp-->23 hp --> Tonics:28 hp

9.2mag -->10mag --> 12 mag

8.4def --> 9 def --> 11 def

No pairups

Growths:

55% hp

30% mag

55% skill

35% speed

60% luck

40% def

20% res

Unpromoted lvl 20:

29.25 hp -->30 hp

12.5 mag--> 13 mag

18.25 skill--> 19 skill

12.25 spd--> 13 speed

18 luck --> 18 luck

12 def --> 12 def

7 res--> 10 res

+1 hp

+3 mag

+3 skill

+3 speed

+2 def

+3 res

+1 mov

upon promotion

Level 1 Promoted:

31 hp

16 mag

22 skill

16 speed

18 luck

14 def

13 res

6 mov

Level 5 Promoted:(rounding up)

32 hp

17 mag

24 skill

17 speed

21 luck

16 def

14 res

6 mov

Leo level 2 sorcerer:

HP:32

Mag:23(20 as dark knight)

Skill:12

Speed:16

Luck:13

Def:13

Res:22

6mov

I think you got slightly rng blessed on some aspects. Def is higher than average, and magic is way higher than average. However, I am seeing the possibilities of nos odin. I'll try it out tomorrow.

[joshcja]

Yeah I was showing level 9 with tonics and an effie pairup. (he has a 50% mag growth, 55% as sorc I swear)

He generally is the sole contender for spirit dusts for the entire early/mid game with only mild competition from niles/maids later on, and the game is absurdly saturated with dusts (ophelia/leo/elsie cap naturally nobody else cares) so that looks about right minus inflation from boosters. The def blessing is real though.

I'm also a wacko who kidnaps rally magic or builds diviner!corin into it rather than using a sensible draco/cav build (Early kana is a better dragon anyways and It makes corin easier to kill early game + lets her and her kids scale to 20 very early via rigging the broken af level 10 skill...and I can wait 3 chapters to hit the games literally perfect real draco's/have silias)

Edit: Mozu is flat out one of the best mothers/combat units in the game if you're playing casually Birdbow class OP and she really is the best candidate for the dread scroll if you want to be a scumlord. FEF is on point there. That said I would not in the slightest consider her a rival to MR broken personal skill+UTILITY. (He really has nobody to compete for his niche, the turns he can save via the ch23 lunatic master of arms kidnap alone rivals silias's early game via deployment slot conservation in endgame not to mention the other 19 chapters he's in). It doesn't help that ch21 onwards forged shining bow Adventurer!Niles makes mozu cry her ophan ass to sleep.

Edited March 1, 2016 by joshcja

[FEF]

For whatever it's worth, Archer Mozu will outclass Niles in most stats before even reaching Niles' starting level of 8

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qwtT7gUqCwJNMAOMwCwrsOCigDwh8iX8HUdNrHa0TsM/edit?usp=sharing

And yes, she can actually reach level 8 on her own paralogue in Lunatic, if you want. Takes about 10 minutes longer than not leveling her at all, and Effie/Silas should be pushing the point where they get a measly 3 exp per kill by the end of chapter 8 anyway. Level 5-6 is probably a more reasonable goal, but the point is that she can legitimately and immediately rival Niles after just one chapter.