The Lunatic Club [Fates]

[DoesntKnowHowToPlay]

Killing Takumi doesn't end the chapter and is much harder than just doing things normally as you need to rout basically the entire left side. He's saying that it's not a proper Ch10 clear unless you do the hardest thing the map has to offer.

I happen to disagree with this opinion, but I will say that hard turtling is a dangerous plan and that having Odin man the fire orb is usually a waste of resources.

Edited February 7, 2017 by DoesntKnowHowToPlay

[ruruo]

I'll concede the point, since I've never bothered with him. (Elixir isn't that much on an incentive)

Can is really be considered harder though? The only reason I can imagine, for wanting to defeat Takumi, is to stop the DV on turn 7. Wouldn't that just make the last four turns easier? I might actually have to try it for myself and see what it's like.

As for Odin, he's there mainly because of bias. In his defence, when I used him as a Swordmaster in my CQ and Valla hard playthroughs he's been very reliable at capping Str, Skill, Spd & Luck. Occasionally also getting enough Magic to use the Levin Sword well. Granted that Lunatic probably isn't the best mode to mess about too much, I was curious to see how he'd fare as a mage (so far, not good lol)

 

[joshcja]

7 hours ago, komasa said:

I'll concede the point, since I've never bothered with him. (Elixir isn't that much on an incentive)

Can is really be considered harder though? The only reason I can imagine, for wanting to defeat Takumi, is to stop the DV on turn 7. Wouldn't that just make the last four turns easier? I might actually have to try it for myself and see what it's like.

As for Odin, he's there mainly because of bias. In his defence, when I used him as a Swordmaster in my CQ and Valla hard playthroughs he's been very reliable at capping Str, Skill, Spd & Luck. Occasionally also getting enough Magic to use the Levin Sword well. Granted that Lunatic probably isn't the best mode to mess about too much, I was curious to see how he'd fare as a mage (so far, not good lol)

You pretty much just kill takumi for the xp and the free elixer convenience is very nice you're going staveless early (the early game is also much easier if you're not locking top tier combat units to healer roles, and you get free top tier stavebots for days later on so building rank is pointless). Stopping the DV just makes it harder to rout the map for the most possible exp, support, and weapon rank. It's trickier to pull off the first time but it's just oh so satisfying. Ch10, Ch17, and Ch22 are the litmus test of how easy or hard the remaining segment of the game will be and the early chapters all have a "hidden" lesson. Ch10's just so happens to be my favorite, it's the most tongue in cheek "think outside the box" joke I've ever seen.

Even if not going for the all in rout, the hint was pretty much what Doesn't said. Turtling on ch10 actively makes the map more difficult and grants less resources which in turn makes the rest of the game more difficult. It's also good to get used to the sort of aggressive play that leaving the box encourages.

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The breakdown:

If you do actually chose to go aggro route tonics (hp, speed, atk stat all the things, def as needed, Hp+speed azura), and a speed meal turn every unit into an unstoppable juggernaut as enemies on that map are much weaker than the games stock standard curve, feels like a GBA map really. You get 10k free and will have made the only non-tonic purchases you actually want between ch10 and ch13 in prep for ch9 and 10. Yes CQ gives more money than you will ever actually need. This is just another thing the game actively lies about.

A really common mistake is giving a damn about the northeast side of the map or grabbing the master seal turn one. You can actually ignore the archers and lancers by the northeast balistae entirely before turn 3, Selena,Beruka, and Camilia can deal with that segment of the map 100% of the time. (Selena gets on cam, rides to balistae, swaps and sits with a sword out, beruka takes the seal village, lunge an archer with cam, dual strike the other with beruka, EP the lances, heal selena with her vuln, rinse repeat). This lets you put more units into combat in the vital early turns to kill all the dudes and prevent the map from ever snowballing out of your control.

Other underused techs include: Breaking the wall on the SW side of the box on turn 1 /and/or sending a flyer over it. Dancing a strong combo to kill oboro's cluster of hate turn 1, ignoring the fire orb entirely and just running  nos user down the 10k path to bait mr mele counter and the Oni swarm on their home turf. Leaving Corin under half health to trigger VoF lets Silias run rampant over absolutely everything. The hand axe is so much value by the conveniently placed dual club. Last but not remotely least, a fluid shift between attack and defense stance is invaluable and is a good foundation for play in the later chapters of the game.

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To anyone who's seen me explain how the Odin do before. Ignore this.

Odin's inherent skill set is straight up broken to the point where the game actively reminds you to use him on 2 separate occasions by sticking a vantage sorc on a throne in a chapter with mixed damage groups, then openly taunts you in ch26 by placing a sorc on the throne behind a giant mass of units specifically designed to hellmurder any other type of tank. His 50% magic growth is something of a running joke since that's the least useful growth an early DM could possible have in CQ (high magic is actively bad pre ch14 on a nos user and the game has a truly staggering number of spirit dusts). Even if Odin gains 0 stats from level 5-10 you're still going to field him for every single chapter just to build vantage Ophelia post ch13 and just strap his ass to Leo from ch14 onwards to get your double vantagesorc on.

The trick is to superglue the nos tome to the hands of the weakest unit in your army, forcefeed the wimp steroids, and throw him into the largest possible clumps of murderbydeath every single turn. By the time you want high damage on the mage side Odin and his posse will all have access to the LoD+Vantage combo which is second only to dracozerk+brave axe abuse in terms of damage output in fates, and works on the enemy phase. (Ophelia "can" break this rule but the brave axe is much cheaper).

Edited February 8, 2017 by joshcja

[ruruo]

Completed that chapter last night.

It's really interesting to read your breakdown @joshcja, afterwards. It's always quite nice to see how different people deal with this chapter as it's so flexible. I definitely played a lot more aggressively than usual for this chapter. Couldn't have done it without meal and tonics. 

Broke the south west wall on turn 1 as well, Effie was ditched with a Javelin on the north eastern ballista. When Selena came I had her backing Effie, and they just took care of that side. Haikata and Silas took care of the axe users and Orobro. Corrin(+Mag/-Luk)  paired with pally Jacob charged down the west side to Takumi. Got there by turn 5, but didn't manage to kill him before turn 7 as planned (missed a hit x'D). Had a 'oh sh!t' moment when the water went down lol, but it ended up alright. I was fortunate enough with stats, as she could one shot the generic enemies with the Dragonstone, and had a solid defence.  Archer Mozu and Niles shot whoever needed to be shot, and manned the central ballista when necessary. It was challenging, but definitely not as hellish as I imagined it to be on Lunatic (expected a lot more fliers gunning for the tiles).

Agreed, it does feel like Lunatic favour a aggressive approach more. I think there's more enemies compared to hard, sometimes it becomes a case of efficiently killing them before getting killed. And, yes! It really does lie about funds, which was why it's the first on the list of questions. I had a good +35k gold left by the end of the hard run and wasn't spending conservatively at all. 

In terms of kids, no plans yet to use them. If the first generation can manage like in Hard, I'll most likely not bother. I will be doing their prologues for the exp and goodies. The total number of units I'm planning to train up is about 14 (not including pass!falco, and Rallyman.) The definite units so far are: Corrin, Niles, Mozu, Camilla, Xander, Elise, Effie, Silas, Odin and  Haitaka (10)

For the last 4 spaces I've been thinking about using Leo as an alternative sorcerer (he could still get Vantage with an A+ support from Odin). Odin's strength growth on this run has been too good to ignore, he's going Swordmaster again. But ideally I'd still like to run a nostank this time round, because they sound useful for later chapters. Leo's the candidate.

I've also been contemplating on Laslow as a Ninja (Sol+Lethality sounds interesting, and heard his growths as ninja is similar to Saizo's. Had a good time running two ninjas on my Val playthrough, so thinking about doing something similar.). Naturally Kaze and Keaton are up for consideration. Or maybe Selena as an extra bow knight/a second  shurikenbreaker. (I know of the benefits of the Charlotte/Xander support, but don't like Fighter line. Never used a Berserker, never will. Willing to be pigheaded about this).

So far so good for a first run. Looking forward to Ch17 (my fave ninja hell), not looking forward to Mr. Fuga's Wild Ride x'D

 

 

[guedesbrawl]

The first gen can handle lunatic even without doing paralogues.

Though having childs give you more flexibility to tackle C23's wall and C21 in general (which under certain circumstances, like the heavy limitations i play with, might be impossible or consume staves you might want to save for Endgame)

[joshcja]

1st gen only is perfectly viable.

Lafast is significantly worse at Mn than Silias, his is the main draw is that he makes Soliel and a +str statue and free's up Silias to take someone else's job. Selena makes an acceptable backup kinshi if you're not planning to free Effie from thompdom via mozu. Kaze is pretty lame but Mn pairup adds are strong and uuuuh. His supports with Silias are top tier romance and cav tree makes his damage less awful if you actually use him. Leo is a serviceable replacement for exceptionally stat screwed Odins. Keaton is flat out bad. He exists to pairup bot and give people zerker.

Lethality may just be the least useful skill in the game.

Free Elise 2017.

17 is fine, smash the center on turn 2 EP and attack stance the rest of the map. Just lock mario in the north room.

20 is fun when you also posses a large quantity of birds.

Including Freezana, Trouble and Hot Stuff you're pretty close to that unit limit already.

Zerker hate is always alien to me. Explain.

Edited February 9, 2017 by joshcja

[ruruo]

The only hard limit I have on this run is no DLC and no illegitimate skills. There's things that I'd prefer doing, such as not using kids, or overly abusing tonics. Visitor rewards, and route bonuses are OK (Why buy certain weapons when they can be had for free). So there's two shots of Dread Fighter okay to go - though I might not actually use them in the end. 

Is Keaton really that bad on Lunatic? He has very good bulk, and gives Camilla nice bonuses. The main issues I can see is his one range lock, and beast weakness which may become an issue late game, depending on what kind of weapons enemies get (hence he's on the 'maybe' list).   

Kaze's got his niche. Outside of mage killing and pair ups - his speed let's him use steel shurikens well, and is great with the Hunter's Knife. 

x'D I don't use that much fliers so ch 20 is tedious, especially getting all the chests and routing the map. 

My dislike for berserkers is very irrational. It probably started with not liking a lot of the axe users in the GBA games (disliked low def paired with axes' low hit. Don't trust things that can't hit). Now it's more like a weird personal tradition of not having warriors/zerkers. I'm aware it's possible to get excellent results and good team set ups from them, it's just not how I want to play.  My loss, but don't let it spoil anyone from enjoying them ;)

Edited February 9, 2017 by komasa

[joshcja]

Yes the grounded 5 move 1 range unit is that bad.

Good description of MN there. Sadly Kaze's niche in LCQ is "the only MN that cannot one round mages" and the main draw of Mn is killing other MN's on EP and kaze lacks the tools for that.

Edited February 10, 2017 by joshcja

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

The best MN in the game is actually Silas anyway

 

[joshcja]

 

5 hours ago, JSND said:

The best MN in the game is actually Silas anyway

 

+1

(In all fairness the only reason that Silias is not the best at every phys class is because Arthur exists and has zerker on lockdown.)

[guedesbrawl]

Keaton is still really really good.

High damage (good str/spd) and high survival-ability (very high HP+good def). His skill is kinda eh-ish, but Keaton thrives on attack stance

His lower mobility and lack of 2 range is circumvented by the fact that he does an amazing job at pair-up boosting Wyverns. They can ferry him to where he wants to be, if you are willing to risk slightly lower hit.

Keaton is a deleter in the same way Effie is. Stuff that actually outspeeds him dies to attack stance before they can attack him. The difference is that effie can do that job at 2-range and in enemy phase, while Beaststone+ lets Keaton outspeed some targets and destroy them without even needing a backup. (And Effie has the niche of denying double attacks from ninjas in Chapter 25/Endgame)

Keaton's skills are also quite good. His personal is very unreliable but getting a burst of ores in his first few maps can be really effective. Beastbane lets him murder fliers and quite a few people in C17/C18/Invasion3/Endgame and without committing to lower damage on everything else. His healing skill (whose name escapes me) requires some planning around, but can be extremely useful to allow him to take risks in a battle to ensure a safe Enemy Phase without eating your healer's turn (which is great: Elise and even Felicia can ORKO some low res/high bulk people because of their good MAG/SPD).

Grisly Wound comes in late, but it makes up for Keaton's lack of two range at time. Because Keaton is quite good offensively, this skill isn't that great, actually. Most of the time it won't truly translate that extra damage into a kill you wouldn't be able to pull off, but lowering the enemy's HP if he IS still alive means whoever is in clean-up duty can make-do with weaker and more accurate weapons.

Keaton might be worse off if you care about "efficiency", where high move and 1-2 range are more important. But in a game that has no ranked, no BEXP, and with almost no map that truly pressures you into making an offense-heavy play, this is truthfully an useless concern towards general viability.

And extra thing for KEaton is that, if you are willing to waste a lot of turns, he can use Grisly Wound to cheese the Stoneborn protecting the Spy Shuriken in C26. If you also go through the trouble of bringing Flora, she can finish off the wounded stoneborn with her personal skill... or so I've heard. This nets you extra money to dump on things for tackling endgame legit (unless you really wanna use Spy Shuriken), and extra EXP->levels->stats to deal with Invasion 3, too.

 

 

[guedesbrawl]

13 hours ago, JSND said:

The best MN in the game is actually Silas anyway

 

Silas doesn't have Siegfried.

[joshcja]

5 hours ago, guedesbrawl said:

Keaton is a deleter in the same way Effie is.

Right. They're both useless PoS you have to carry around to do less damage than Silias.

The difference is Effie is outclassed by other units but comes early enough to see use. Keaton is outclassed by the beastkiller, and joins after the beastkiller.

Edited February 11, 2017 by joshcja

[eclipse]

5 hours ago, guedesbrawl said:

Silas doesn't have Siegfried.

Use the Edit button if you want to add stuff to your post.  You can copy-paste quotes (it's awkward, but it works).

[guedesbrawl]

First of all, josh, calm down. It's just a game.

Second, Silas is definitely not outdamaging Effie and especially not Keaton without some serious investment or counting on Luna procs. You can see it for yourself down below:

http://zekareisoujin.github.io/FEFatesStatCalc/

Basing ourselves on averages, Effie has Silas beat in STR by a small margin (which will be a bit bigger once in a blue moon, since Elbow Room is pretty hard to deactivate but will happen more than Effie's personal), and also has him beat in SPD if you chose to make both of them be Great Knights. General Effie is even stronger, and the ability to one shot before the enemy can counterattack in PP is more valuable than doubling with SPD investment (which, mind you, between pair-ups and speedwings... are better used on Xander and Leo). Silas will beat Effie now and them when Luna procs, but that is not a reliable thing, and effie can get that skill too.

Defensively speaking they are about the same as Great Knights (Effie has a one point lead in DEF because she starts with DEF+2, Silas has a similar lead in HP), but Wary Fighter access gives Effie a niche Silas usually wouldn't have, especially against ninjas later on (particularly those with Inevitable End).

Against Keaton, Silas does match him in STR with Elbow Room and can use stronger weapons without possibly sacrificing bulk... but Keaton still outdamages him. Beaststone+ has 10MT and gives an extra 5 STR. Unless you really work up that Axe rank as GK (which also comes with a debuff from silver/steel and huge ore investment for Iron), he won't match that MT and thus damage unless he procs Luna. That's not even considering that Keaton with BS+ has about 10 SPD over Silas. This higher SPD means Keaton needs considerably less investment to double high SPD targets (or just deny their double attacks) and can naturally always double stuff like Onis, Faceless (important for now-cheesed C21) and MoAs.

Defensively, Keaton and Silas have the exact same defense average (down to the decimal, surprisingly), and while BS+ has a -5DEF built in, Keaton does compensate with a lot more HP. And, of course, he can enter tank mode with BeastRune, and he will still be barely faster than Silas with that Sometimes you might wanna take that lower DEF with BS+ to avoid a double attack, though... not an option Silas has, though. But late in the game Silas makes it up somewhat with Armored Blow, so there is that. 

Keaton is also not "outclassed" by Beast Killer. Hunter's Knife, yes. But not Beast Killer. The impact both have should be the same in every map but Kitsune Hell (where Keaton's low skill wrecks him), and having one more unit capable of ORKO'ing when waves of fliers start coming after you is always great. Especially when KEaton's weapons come for a huge gold cost of... nothing. 

Silas does have more utility potential due to higher move early on and being a shelter bot for earlygame and later to keep Xander doing something else than setting up Azura. Is Silas better than Keaton/Effie or is he the worse unit? Honestly... they are all about even. Silas has availability and 2-range over Keaton despite worse pair-up bonuses and combat performance (he is still good), and unlike Effie, he doesn't struggle a lot to make an impact in Chapter 7 and 8 (which are by far Effie's worst maps in the campaign. Chapter 7 is also not great for Silas but he manages, and is good on 8).

Who is better depends on your playstyle, really. The old tank-and-kill is better for Effie and Keaton, but Silas excels with a team built for mobility and initiating on groups of enemies.

 

Edited February 11, 2017 by guedesbrawl

[joshcja]

Terrible and biased arguments built on shoddy logic irritate me. Comparing Effie in her best inherent ending class to Silias in his worst inherent ending class to... Keaton is all of these things. By the time you get the BST+, you have braves (hell you have lightning before keaton joins).

Had this conversation like, 20 pages back. No no no no no no, No. If you like the dog, you can use the dog. He's bad in every possible way, but you can use him. Effie does not remotely compete with Silias, His dick makes a stronger unit. In all fairness to Effie there is just enough support in the game to get her on a horse before ch10 with the seed of trust and this makes for a nice damage stacked kinshi/sniper shelter user. She does have enough other options to compete with the laundry list of mid tier combat units long term in other setups. Worst case she's a decent "breed'er and dump'er". Heavy use early on tends to ruin builds though, so I rag on Effie a lot.

Great knight is utter trash, compare Silias/Effie in Kinshi/MN/Draco/Sniper/bow knight. They both cap Str and hit speed benchmarks but Silias has better overall skill access and will gain more in the other benchmark stats as well, comes with a huge lead in the form of 7 move, and has much freer reclass options along with an actually useful inherent class pool. All of these options either deal significantly higher damage or have significantly better EP potential than the family dog, on both units.

Stop using the cav tree in the ch14-ch25 gap, just stop (xander can get on a horse again in ch23/26).

Keaton is a 1-1 5 move unit that joins at level 15 with 5 move when you're promoting and converting to post 2nd shop strats (Birds, bows, axes, and 1-2) contributes in no meaningful way for the rest of the game and is a worse pairup bot than the nerds you got early on. Sure he "can" Ohko things but when you're competing with the likes of damage stacked (Overpowered) Vantage Sorc, the (Holy Grail) Brave Axe/Bolt axe, Sol Dagger damage stack, 8-11 move damage stacked bows, and Xander, you are in the doghouse. Note that none of these require turtling, which is a desperation tactic that requires serious Stockholm syndrome to actually enjoy or refer to as a playstyle.

I really wish we would move past "Silias god. Effie middling, Keaton crap" and discuss the actually interesting things in LCQ. It's been a friggin year.

Edited February 11, 2017 by joshcja

[guedesbrawl]

I really enjoyed how you open your post with "Terrible and Biased argument" and end it with "  Note that none of these require turtling, which is a desperation tactic that requires serious Stockholm syndrome to actually enjoy or refer to as a playstyle."

Was that supposed to be hypocritical, or are you just that oblivious? i mean, even if we ignore the obvious bias in the statements i quoted, you just argued against +7 STR/+4SPD/+2DEF

i like when people disconsider turtling as a legit strategy. You might think its boring or whatever. i think Nosferatanking with Robin in awakening is cancer-inducing, but it is undeniably the best strategy.

Turtling might not be the best strategy in the same way, but it's incredibly safe and easy to do when tackling all chapters besides the ones that give you a turn count limit or have infinite reinforcements trailing down your back. That's just 4 missions out of 32 (considering paralogue 1 and invasions). Chapter 12 should've taught you that.

What turtling does: it minimizes how many encounters you have on EP to give you absolute control on how to wipe out the enemy in PP. it minimizes risk, it minimizes difficulty, it minimizes resource consumption. (exception being Chapter 25 where investing on a good Corrin saves you a LOT of trouble)

Chapter 17 is an awesome example. You can literally plug a hole with Xander in turn 2 and tank out the entirety of the first massive wave of ninjas out without any risk, then carefully position your units to ambush reinforcements before someone triggers them. The chapter becomes a complete joke, and you don't even have to try anything. That's not to say other strategies are not effective, but they require more resources (hello 200g for seals and dealing with E rank hell AFTER grinding up supports to S/A+), more effort, and depend more on the enemy than you. With fates's finicky RNG, the lack of control of an EP playstyle can bring about ruin that could be salvaged in a PP playstyle

you can definitely beat the game faster if you don't turtle but that means... nothing. Again: only 4 out of 32 maps actively press you for time in the entire run, with other chapters having pockets of danger that almost always can be avoided (Yukimura's reinforcements, for example) or tanked out anyways (Everything in C24, especially with Mechanist Kaze's ridiculousness). For the rest of the maps, you aren't rewarded by the "GOTTA GO FAST" mentality that consumed the fanbase because of FE7's ranks. There's no such a thing in fates.

You seem to imply having promoted units by the time keaton joins. Seems like someone early promoted JUST to deal with chapters like 13. 14. and 16... who can be easily dealt with a team of unpromoted and unreclassed units if you know how to tank. Lategame maps all can be easily tanked out too, especially if you have Xander.

But feel free to think what you want. I will admit: i only play with very heavy restrictions which includes no reclassing and no prepromotes (bar chapter 21 which i'm sure i made impossible with everything i banned, forcing me to use Dragon Herbs and Camilla). But after quite a bit of hard work, i have practically completed Conquest Lunatic with 14 effective units and i can say that trying the good old tank-and-kill when you have access just to broken prepromotes like Earlygame!Reclassed!Jakob1, Camilla, xander and Haitaka makes the game have zero difficulty. The only real difficulty i've had came from things that wouldn't be difficult if i had access to those units. My example for chapter 17 required a super offensive strategy to get through the first waves with 14 units and only Corrin and Felicia as promoted.

[ruruo]

Gosh, that escalated overnight x'D. Read your posts yesterday, and I came here to thank you guys for convincing me to drop Keaton. Wow, should have brought the pop corn lol. 

In terms of turtling, what's so bad about it? Not saying to be over-cautious, imho I think defence and offence is fluid depending which map/position on said map. I agree with what guedesbrawl said about Ch24. When tanked well, the 12 mov enemy units will just fly to their death (glad to know this strategy is still usable on lunatic x'D). I also think that Ch19 is also easier when played defensively.  

Edited February 12, 2017 by komasa

[guedesbrawl]

19 is much easier when played defensively. Tanking it out with a beast killer general/Wyvern is just too good for those silly foxes. Effie, benny, Beruka and Camilla all should be able to pair up with corrin and tak on the map with just a few vulnearies.

but on a non-cheesy playthrough, I think the only thing that is important is that you can use a flier to split up the second-to-last batch of kitsunes, which makes dealing them them in a non-cheesy manner much more manageable. You send your army south, but have one flier trap some of the foxes between the river and the mountains. Their MOv will be very compromised (especially if you go further and bait some of the riverside foxes to loop around the map).

Chapter 24 can also be tanked hard. Especially if you do like me and havea properly set up replicate!Kaze with Hunter's knife (on top of at least two beast killers and shining bow!niles). Fliers and mages suicide into him, and it was so bad that i got my kaze from 14 to 18,5 without actively trying.

The very last reinforcement promotes offensive play if you can't defeat Hinoka and her oni fast enough to trigger her dragon vein over just seizing, but i might be saying BS here because i messed up (one of Effie/Niles/Keaton/Silas was set up to kill a couple of the advancing fliers in EP, but i ended up leaving them around enough auras that the enemies just got close and didn't attack.)

[joshcja]

4 hours ago, komasa said:

Gosh, that escalated overnight x'D. Read your posts yesterday, and I came here to thank you guys for convincing me to drop Keaton. Wow, should have brought the pop corn lol. 

In terms of turtling, what's so bad about it? Not saying to be over-cautious, imho I think defence and offence is fluid depending which map/position on said map. I agree with what guedesbrawl said about Ch24. When tanked well, the 12 mov enemy units will just fly to their death (glad to know this strategy is still usable on lunatic x'D). I also think that Ch19 is also easier when played defensively.  

It's the difference between killing takapineapple and....standing on the green tiles. (Ch10 is a good analogy thing).

You can turtle on 24, it works. It's just exceptionally tedious and painful compared to standard doctrine strats (break hatecluster, birds and bows kill all the things). Ch24 makes this very easy to pull off thanks to the insane amount of movement tech the game gives you. it's a 2-3 turn fast clear or a 5-6 turn rout with double passfalco capture. Or a 40 turn slog. All of these have the same difficulty.

For 19 it's uuuuh, free feeding for your nerds on the opening side and bridge at a set pace, but the easiest way to deal with the mixed group and keaton is "throw a BK/Nos user at em" and you can do that while your nerds are playing grabass. Throwing one unit at 15 is pretty aggressive.

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Short laundry list for Mr Impassioned defense of turtles:

No, it's a desperation tactic you use when the cognitive load of a game is higher than you're capable of managing so you just swing a big big hammer desperately at tiny tiny problems. It works in a "Trog Smash" way but nothing about it is actually enoyable outside of the obvious "holy crap 1st clear wooooo".

Yes Trog you can start a fire with flint steel and the blood of 30 maidens but really, the lighter is easier.

Ch17 is an awesome example: You can kill half the map on turn 1.

Edited February 12, 2017 by joshcja

[guedesbrawl]

I't's still a valid tactic.

Especially when the game gives no incentive for trying something other than turtling, given the maps it doesn't work on... welp. Chapter 10 gives you Camilla who can practically handle half of the map by herself. Chapter 21 can by flyskipped by Camilla or just a flier Corrin, not to mention you can go through it normally by Xander Smash tactics. Endgame is cheesable as most of us know it. Chapter 24 is tankable, and Chapter 12 (and i just remembered, 18) is designed in a way that pressing an offensive is easy so it doesn't matter.

I'm sure you can clear half of Chapter 17 in one turn. But the question is: why would i go through the effort of setting up my team to do that? Objectively. You can argue fun or whatever, but that's purely subjective.

I know that if I had the resources to tank that map out (without losing Saizo) I would've. The circumstances of my run forced me to take a super offensive strategy with a 14-man team of unpromoted units bar Corrin and Felicia (and a 15th member in Level 1 mozu who was just there to deny attack stance hits on Azura if needed, since she can survive one shuriken at least), but still. I can see a stronger team with early promotions and built with the right skill after some reclasses wiping out that map. But I see that the game gives me Xander one map before, and that I have enough units to plug holes and trap saizo in the first room and think: if I hadn't been doing a heavily restricted run, I could've done that.

There is no incentive, and no reward to go through that trouble when turtling is so easy and effortless.

The less effort and resources you need to execute a strategy when time is a meaningless resource, the better that strategy is. This is not me trying to make whatever strategies you come up with invalid, before you get even more offended and bothered. (relax).

 

[joshcja]

2 hours ago, guedesbrawl said:

I't's still a valid tactic.

Yes Trog, you good start fire. Fire cook meat. Meat good.

I have literally never denied this. Stop trying to convince me of the completely obvious thing I have previously openly acknowledged via circular logic and endless repetition. I know you get off on it but holy crap at least move to PM's.

(Spoilers: A debate is not Turtle Turtle, you progress by presenting new ideas not by slowly moving in circles in an ass clenching defensive huddle.)

Edited February 12, 2017 by joshcja

[eclipse]

51 minutes ago, joshcja said:

Yes Trog, you good start fire. Fire cook meat. Meat good.

I have literally never denied this. Stop trying to convince me of the completely obvious thing I have previously openly acknowledged via circular logic and endless repetition. I know you get off on it but holy crap at least move to PM's.

(Spoilers: A debate is not Turtle Turtle, you progress by presenting new ideas not by slowly moving in circles in an ass clenching defensive huddle.)

There's good and bad in this post.

Good: Suggestion to take this to PM
Bad: Everything else

In other words, cool it, and continue this via PM.

[ruruo]

Is there other staves to be precious about apart from Rescue? (Namely: Entrap, Enfeeble and Silence) 

[DoesntKnowHowToPlay]

2 hours ago, komasa said:

Is there other staves to be precious about apart from Rescue? (Namely: Entrap, Enfeeble and Silence) 

No staff is as important as Rescue, no.

Entrap is only available by purchasing it and is expensive, but it's extremely potent in a few late-game chapters. Notable uses include kidnapping people off of Takumi's wall, wrecking the formations in Ch25, and abducting Hans in Ch26 (this confuses his room's AI and lets you shoot a bunch of dudes through the door as they aggro before they're supposed to).

Enfeeble is probably very useful but I have never personally bothered to use it. Ch12 Ryoma is the one big target I can think of for it.

Silence is in a kinda weird spot since the question is less about not wasting it and more to do with bothering to get it at all (it's in Ch25 and "efficient" players would rather just murder Ryoma ASAP and not deal with the ninja squads). It is less useful for getting Iago to shut up (he's not that easy to hit consistently) and more useful for stopping the generic Entrap maid near the start.