So why exactly do people call Conquest Corrin an idiot?(Conquest spoilers)

[Azure Sen]

Actually when you put it this way I think you can draw a lot of parallels between Corrin and Micaiah - fighting on the wrong side, forced to commit or turn a blind eye to atrocities. And yet Begnion is not "the evil empire", they are ruled by assholes during Radiant Dawn but they were on the good side in Path of Radiance.

Then again a lot of people don't like the blood contracts as a plot device either!

Micaiah at the very least recognized that what she was doing was wrong, but buckled down and committed to doing horrible things if it meant Daein's survival. Meanwhile the narrative of Fates goes out of its way to excuse Corrin for all of their negative actions during Conquest, and Corrin doesn't commit to their choice until Slime Garon is revealed to them.

Edited March 4, 2016 by AzureSen

[Thane]

I've said this before, but a lot of the hate the story of Conquest gets is because it makes the player feel like shit about what they're doing. You're not on the right side. You suffer multiple heavy setbacks and it feels like the villains are always one step ahead of you past the rebellion in Cheve. The plot has a lot of stupid elements but these usually take a backseat when criticism is leveled at the writing because everyone's too busy whining about how Corrin, their player avatar, doesn't make them feel empowered and capable.

Way to go, ignoring all of those many threads and countless posts discussing every little detail of Conquest's story. The reason why people are discussing Corrin here is simply because it's a thread dedicated to that exact topic. Rest assured that everything from the lackluster villains, Azura's fantastic strategic mind, the siblings' incompetence and lack of spine, plot contrivances, plot conveniences, awful writing and horrible pacing have all been criticized thoroughly many times over the course of almost a year.

[maybe]

Then that argument should be done with.

If I see anyone else bring it up, I will start hitting people.

Glad we could be civil about things and end that quickly.

Just because most games in the series do something wrong, that doesn't make it okay to do.

it's perfectly possible to make a fire emblem game with a main character that doesn't suck

[Abysswalker25]

Micaiah at the very least recognized that what she was doing was wrong, but buckled down and committed to doing horrible things if it meant Daein's survival. Meanwhile the narrative of Fates goes out of its way to excuse Corrin for all of their negative actions during Conquest, and Corrin doesn't commit to their choice until Slime Garon is revealed to them.

I don't know. Have Corrin fight the retainers of the siblings when you fight them. They tend to lay into Corrin. Hana in particular is really out for your blood.

Plus, again siding with Hoshido has Corrin killing people to get to Garon while the Nohr version is trying to end things more peacefully and hates killing anyone. A good example of this is when you fight either Xander or Ryoma. When you fight Xander Corrin is pretty much like "I don't wanna fight you, but alright if you're gonna be in the way.." while when you fight Ryoma they're incredibly hesitant and do not want to fight them at all and are trying to explain to him about Hinoka.

I'm surprised people don't mention this more and dislike the more idealistic version of Corrin while ignoring the actions of the more cynical one because he has more spine in Birthright, but isn't going out of his way to spare Nohrians aside from the siblings if possible.

And then, Corrin actually KILLS Xander in Birthright (he wanted to die anyways right after Elise was killed) while Ryoma has to kill himself because Corrin can't go through with it and Garon, Iago and Hans were all there to kill him if he didn't do it.

[NekoKnight]

Corrin is an idiot because of bad writers.

The thing about Corrin in Conquest is the fact that joining Nohr is actually very smart from Corrin.

I'm going to suggest that going back to the man who tried to have you killed TWICE disqualifies you from the "smart" category.

I've said this before, but a lot of the hate the story of Conquest gets is because it makes the player feel like shit about what they're doing. You're not on the right side. You suffer multiple heavy setbacks and it feels like the villains are always one step ahead of you past the rebellion in Cheve. The plot has a lot of stupid elements but these usually take a backseat when criticism is leveled at the writing because everyone's too busy whining about how Corrin, their player avatar, doesn't make them feel empowered and capable.

1. Way to ignore the millions of threads dedicated to discussing every aspect of the game. Nice strawman.

2. How is it not a relevant criticism that the protagonist is spineless, hypocritical and ineffectual? That's a shit protagonist, whether it's a player self-insert or otherwise.

Then that argument should be done with.

If I see anyone else bring it up, I will start hitting people.

Glad we could be civil about things and end that quickly.

Come at me bro.

Kamui has many qualifiers of a mary sue.

1. The plot focuses too much on you. Two of the primarily antagonist make it their life mission to make you sad. Why? Several character's personalty revolves around worshiping you.

2. You've got a super genetic powers, you're the prince of TWO nations who both want you back, you're literally the chosen one with a unique sword. How many special snowflake points have we accumulated?

3. No matter what happens, the protagonist is never considered wrong. People who call the protagonist wrong are demonized and then forced to apologize.

The only thing that makes Kamui NOT a Mary Sue in Conquest is his constant stream of failures, but considering point 3, ultimately the game considers you a hero in spite of your failures.

Citing a vague description of a Mary Sue (vague because Mary Sues come in many forms) as a defense of Kamui is poor argumentation.

[Fallaner]

Come at me bro.

Kamui has many qualifiers of a mary sue.

1. The plot focuses too much on you. Two of the primarily antagonist make it their life mission to make you sad. Why? Several character's personalty revolves around worshiping you.

2. You've got a super genetic powers, you're the prince of TWO nations who both want you back, you're literally the chosen one with a unique sword. How many special snowflake points have we accumulated?

3. No matter what happens, the protagonist is never considered wrong. People who call the protagonist wrong are demonized and then forced to apologize.

The only thing that makes Kamui NOT a Mary Sue in Conquest is his constant stream of failures, but considering point 3, ultimately the game considers you a hero in spite of your failures.

Citing a vague description of a Mary Sue (vague because Mary Sues come in many forms) as a defense of Kamui is poor argumentation.

Was I saying the Avatar wasn't one?

No. I was saying that the description of a Mary Sue applies to virtually every main hero of a FE game. It also applies to most "good" characters in the games. THAT was my point. That was what I was saying, as the person I was responding to conceded.

I would commit a logical fallacy here by saying "Like a feminist and like a creationist, you are either acting like you don't get the point of what i'm saying in order to further your agenda, or don't actually get it and don't care to ask."

But I won't actually do that.

Nice strawman though.

Nice job kicking that STRAWMAN's ass.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Fallaner

[Azure Sen]

I don't know. Have Corrin fight the retainers of the siblings when you fight them. They tend to lay into Corrin. Hana in particular is really out for your blood.

Plus, again siding with Hoshido has Corrin killing people to get to Garon while the Nohr version is trying to end things more peacefully and hates killing anyone. A good example of this is when you fight either Xander or Ryoma. When you fight Xander Corrin is pretty much like "I don't wanna fight you, but alright if you're gonna be in the way.." while when you fight Ryoma they're incredibly hesitant and do not want to fight them at all and are trying to explain to him about Hinoka.

I'm surprised people don't mention this more and dislike the more idealistic version of Corrin while ignoring the actions of the more cynical one because he has more spine in Birthright, but isn't going out of his way to spare Nohrians aside from the siblings if possible.

And then, Corrin actually KILLS Xander in Birthright (he wanted to die anyways right after Elise was killed) while Ryoma has to kill himself because Corrin can't go through with it and Garon, Iago and Hans were all there to kill him if he didn't do it.

Having optional conversations that can be completely missed call Corrin out is not the same as the characters within the narrative, and even Micaiah herself, pointing out how horrible Micaiah's actions were. And those optional conversations are completely invalidated by the narrative's insistence that no one in Hoshido would understand what Corrin is doing and "the important people" forgiving Corrin (and Corrin forgiving themselves) in Conquest's ending anyway. (Not to mention that Micaiah literally had no choice because of the Blood Pact and was being manipulated by Lekain while Corrin was acting largely of their own free will, but Blood Pacts are a whole 'nother can of bad writing worms.)

I'm pretty sure Nohrrin deciding to sacrifice Hoshido for the sake of his Nohrian siblings trumps Hoshido Corrin not going out of their way to spare any Nohrians on the "unnecessary casualties" count.

Edited March 4, 2016 by AzureSen

[semolinaro]

I wish Corrin would either

A) Realize that if he joins Nohr he must follow their ideals and therefore become a cold-blooded killer like his father if it was for the sake of his country. I wouldn't even mind becoming the villain if it was justified (which unfortunately it isn't when it could have easily been).

or

B) After learning about Garon's intentions with the Ganglari, stage a revolution with his siblings siding with him and working to gain the trust of the Hoshidans who aid in said revolution by allowing them access to the throne.

The secrets and 'mysteriousness' in the plot need to go. It serves no purpose other than causing frustration for players and making every character look like naive, stubborn airheads.

[warchiefwilliams]

B) After learning about Garon's intentions with the Ganglari, stage a revolution with his siblings siding with him and working to gain the trust of the Hoshidans who aid in said revolution by allowing them access to the throne.

We were all expecting a revolution somewhere in Conquest. Could of, would of, should of, but it never happened.

Out of curiosity, in your scenario, how would corrin find out about the Ganglari's purpose?

Edited March 4, 2016 by warchiefwilliams

[Fallaner]

I wish Corrin would either

A) Realize that if he joins Nohr he must follow their ideals and therefore become a cold-blooded killer like his father if it was for the sake of his country. I wouldn't even mind becoming the villain if it was justified (which unfortunately it isn't when it could have easily been).

or

B) After learning about Garon's intentions with the Ganglari, stage a revolution with his siblings siding with him and working to gain the trust of the Hoshidans who aid in said revolution by allowing them access to the throne.

The secrets and 'mysteriousness' in the plot need to go. It serves no purpose other than causing frustration for players and making every character look like naive, stubborn airheads.

This is honestly what I was expecting to happen. I think it is what a lot of us were expecting. Well, minus the throne part. The throne is still a bad plot macguffin. But staging a revolution? I was just waiting for that to happen, but it never did.

While I generally like Conquest's story (and like it more than Birthright's), I will honestly agree with you guys there. I WAS expecting well, a revolution. I kept asking myself "How long until I can kill Hans and Iago?", because they are just... terrible and deserving of death.

I also wondered why I couldn't just go back and get another orb, if you HAD to show Corrin one herself first, why not just... go get another? The Avatar and Azura enough should be able to sneak around and steal one. If that wasn't possible, why not wait and show the entire family? Is it only viewable by one person? If so, why not show it to say, Leo? Who's word backing you up would probably carry substantial sway.

The Orb is completely forgotten in Revelation too!

[NekoKnight]

Was I saying the Avatar wasn't one?

A Mary Sue does not have to "do no wrong". A Mary Sue can in fact do things wrong. A Mary Sue is a fictional, idealized (Conquest!Corrin does not sound Idealized to me!), young or low-ranking character who saves the day through unrealistic abilities.

Right here. You just stated reasons why Kamui doesn't sound like a Mary Sue.

I would commit a logical fallacy here by saying "Like a feminist and like a creationist, you are either acting like you don't get the point of what i'm saying in order to further your agenda, or don't actually get it and don't care to ask."

But I won't actually do that.

"I will be an asshole but say "I'm not actually an asshole" ;))))"

Next time...don't?

Edited March 5, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Fallaner]

Right here. You just stated reasons why Kamui doesn't sound like a Mary Sue.

"I will be an asshole but say "I'm not actually an asshole" ;))))"

Next time...don't?

I stated elements of a Mary Sue. I did not state the reasons why the Avatar didn't sound like one. If I was, I would of ignored "unrealistic abilities" and "young". The Avatar COMPLETELY fulfills those. I was refuting a previous point that a Mary Sue can do no wrong. Nobody will say that Conquest!Avatar doesn't do things TOTALLY wrong. Not even I say that and I LIKED Conquest's Story!

You know, bend things to my advantage? Like you?

Nice strawman though. Again.

Nice job kicking that strawman's ass! But again, that wasn't what I was doing!

Oh I was considering deleting it. But then I decided to be a smartass because of how you were acting.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Fallaner

[semolinaro]

We were all expecting a revolution somewhere in Conquest. Could of, would of, should of, but it never happened.

Out of curiosity, in your scenario, how would corrin find out about the Ganglari's purpose?

The same way as in the game: after it explodes and kills Mikoto, you should know that Garon only has ill intentions for you and Hoshido. It bothered me how Corrin returned to Garon and questioned it like 'is that why you gave me the sword?' why ELSE would he give you a sword that randomly explodes and tries to kill you?

[NekoKnight]

I stated elements of a Mary Sue. I did not state the reasons why the Avatar didn't sound like one. If I was, I would of ignored "unrealistic abilities" and "young". The Avatar COMPLETELY fulfills those. I was refuting a previous point that a Mary Sue can do no wrong. Nobody will say that Conquest!Avatar doesn't do things TOTALLY wrong. Not even I say that and I LIKED Conquest's Story!

Okay. If you think I misrepresented your comment, you can explain why without being an ass. I wasn't maliciously trying to misrepresent you. Earlier you thanked a poster for being "civil" but you're far from it.

[Fallaner]

Okay. If you think I misrepresented your comment, you can explain why without being an ass. I wasn't maliciously trying to misrepresent you. Earlier you thanked a poster for being "civil" but you're far from it.

Oh yeah. I can be a total ass when you start misrepresenting what I say when It was quite obvious, especially as someone else got it RIGHT UNDER that post.

I'm saying that every FE protagonist fulfills the conditions of being a Mary Sue. Plain and simple. Using "Mary Sue" as an argument against one means you should start criticizing all of them for being Mary Sues/Gary Stus.

[semolinaro]

Oh yeah. I can be a total ass when you start misrepresenting what I say when It was quite obvious, especially as someone else got it RIGHT UNDER that post.

I'm saying that every FE protagonist fulfills the conditions of being a Mary Sue. Plain and simple. Using "Mary Sue" as an argument against one means you should start criticizing all of them for being Mary Sues/Gary Stus.

Valid point, Fallaner. Many FE protagonists fall into this category, and it works. However, in Conquest Corrin's case it doesn't work because unlike previous FE protagonists, Corrin is a naive, spineless person who sacrifices an entire country because he doesn't have the courage to stand up and do the right thing. At least previous FE protagonists, even those who were on the 'wrong' side, tried fighting for good. Corrin doesn't fight for good. He only thinks he does. Slaughtering an innocent country with little to no valid reason and then having the plot hail them as a 'lovable' hero who has kindness in their eyes and saves little dragon birds is hardly convincing. It takes away the empowerment of leading an army towards a cause, because the cause is ridiculous. While I enjoy Conquest's intense gameplay, as I mow down my 'enemies' and win the map I feel unsatisfied because I'm like... why am I DOING this? That's a sign of a poorly written protagonist, when you feel like the closer they are to reaching their goal the more you disconnect with them.

Edited March 5, 2016 by semolinaro

[NekoKnight]

I wish Corrin would either

A) Realize that if he joins Nohr he must follow their ideals and therefore become a cold-blooded killer like his father if it was for the sake of his country. I wouldn't even mind becoming the villain if it was justified (which unfortunately it isn't when it could have easily been).

or

B) After learning about Garon's intentions with the Ganglari, stage a revolution with his siblings siding with him and working to gain the trust of the Hoshidans who aid in said revolution by allowing them access to the throne.

The secrets and 'mysteriousness' in the plot need to go. It serves no purpose other than causing frustration for players and making every character look like naive, stubborn airheads.

This is basically it. They tried to have a middle ground where Kamui was unquestionably good (not option A) but serving people who are unquestionably evil (not option B). If Kamui had only one country to choose from, you could handwave their shitty situation as "They didn't have a choice". But they did have a choice. Two other choices in fact. What angers me about Kamui is that no matter what happens in Conquest, he never reconsiders what he's fighting for. He doesn't see his constant failures as a reason to change his plan of action. The massacre at Chevalier should have been the point where he realized his mistake.

Edited March 5, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Thane]

Oh yeah. I can be a total ass when you start misrepresenting what I say when It was quite obvious, especially as someone else got it RIGHT UNDER that post.

I'm saying that every FE protagonist fulfills the conditions of being a Mary Sue. Plain and simple. Using "Mary Sue" as an argument against one means you should start criticizing all of them for being Mary Sues/Gary Stus.

To me it seems like you're being far too rude for no reason at all; NekoKnight has said absolutely nothing to warrant such hostility, and he's right in that your reasoning is incredibly vague.

Mary Sue is not a term to be thrown around lightly, since everyone seems to have various interpretations of what one actually is; some people don't even think non fanfic characters should count, for instance. However, I'd say Corrin is undoubtedly the one with the most TRAITS, what with the aforementioned player worship and twisting of the narrative.

[Water Mage]

I was playing Conquest's story again and I realized something.

Is it just me, or do the nohrian sibilings, with the exception of Leo, treat Corrin like a fragile doll? They are also rather condescending towards him/her.

Every time Corrin talks about the morality of their actions and Garon's own actions, Camilla and Elise are all like "I love you Corrin, but I don't have the answer. You're so cute when try to be nice!" and Xander is like "There's no such thing as justice in this world so just grin and bear it."

Leo is the only one who actually tries to explain things to Corrin and actually have a discussion about morality. Leo is the only one who treats Corrin like a sibiling instead of a doll.

Maybe that's why Corrin keeps doing mistakes in Conquest, because everyone coddling him/her.

[semolinaro]

This is basically it. They tried to have a middle ground where Kamui was unquestionably good (not option A) but serving people who are unquestionably evil (not option B). If Kamui had only one country to choose from, you could handwave their shitty situation as "They didn't have a choice". But they did have a choice. Two other choices in fact. What angers me about Kamui is that no matter what happens in Conquest, he never reconsiders what he's fighting for. He doesn't see his constant failures as a reason to change his plan of action. The massacre at Chevalier should have been the point where he realized his mistake.

EXACTLY! There's nothing worse than a character that doesn't change. As a creative writing major and an author of a few books, this is a major no-no when writing characters. Corrin is the equivalent of a stubborn cardboard box. Not even the brutal slaughter of Charlotte is enough to change his ways. Just what will it TAKE?

[Azure Sen]

I was playing Conquest's story again and I realized something.

Is it just me, or do the nohrian sibilings, with the exception of Leo, treat Corrin like a fragile doll? They are also rather condescending towards him/her.

Every time Corrin talks about the morality of their actions and Garon's own actions, Camilla and Elise are all like "I love you Corrin, but I don't have the answer. You're so cute when try to be nice!" and Xander is like "There's no such thing as justice in this world so just grin and bear it."

Leo is the only one who actually tries to explain things to Corrin and actually have a discussion about morality. Leo is the only one who treats Corrin like a sibiling instead of a doll.

Maybe that's why Corrin keeps doing mistakes in Conquest, because everyone coddling him/her.

You're not the only one, I got the same feeling just from their interactions with Corrin in the pre-route split chapters. Camilla is the worst of the three (Xander, Camilla and Elise), but all three definitely have vibes of condescending to Corrin and talking down to them. It's part of what put me off of the Nohr siblings in the first place, honestly.

Edited March 5, 2016 by AzureSen

[NekoKnight]

To me it seems like you're being far too rude for no reason at all; NekoKnight has said absolutely nothing to warrant such hostility, and he's right in that your reasoning is incredibly vague.

Mary Sue is not a term to be thrown around lightly, since everyone seems to have various interpretations of what one actually is; some people don't even think non fanfic characters should count, for instance. However, I'd say Corrin is undoubtedly the one with the most TRAITS, what with the aforementioned player worship and twisting of the narrative.

Thanks.

I'd disagree that all or even most FE protagonists are Mary Sues. There are qualities that are associated with being a protagonist (charisma, competence, strong morals) but there reaches a point when the narrative warps to accommodate the character, especially for characters that players are meant to treat as themselves.

EXACTLY! There's nothing worse than a character that doesn't change. As a creative writing major and an author of a few books, this is a major no-no when writing characters. Corrin is the equivalent of a stubborn cardboard box. Not even the brutal slaughter of Charlotte is enough to change his ways. Just what will it TAKE?

Scarlet*

If you brutally killed Charlotte, that one is on you. ;)

Edited March 5, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Loki Laufeyson]

Judging by what Thane and others said , most of the problems in Conquest could have beeen solved if Corrin was more confident in their goals, everyone not being scared shitless of Garon, and Azura not giving very little information. Correct?

More like, the problems with Conquest is how everyone ever reacts.

[spoiler=honestly...]

WHY is Iago so hellbent on making Corrin suffer? Why is everyone letting that happen? Why arent the sibs reacting? Why wont Azura share the information with the siblings? (she does this with Leo in Birthright. She literally gives him a thingdeal that basically shows that Garon is a something other than his father.) Why is Corrin letting Hanz get away with the slaughter in Cheve? Its basically all pussy footing to avoid putting the player on the spot, by literally tying the main character's hands. Its just so...badly handled.

This plot could work if the writers had the nads to make it work.

[Fallaner]

Valid point, Fallaner. Many FE protagonists fall into this category, and it works. However, in Conquest Corrin's case it doesn't work because unlike previous FE protagonists, Corrin is a naive, spineless person who sacrifices an entire country because he doesn't have the courage to stand up and do the right thing. At least previous FE protagonists, even those who were on the 'wrong' side, tried fighting for good. Corrin doesn't fight for good. He only thinks he does. Slaughtering an innocent country with little to no valid reason and then having the plot hail them as a 'lovable' hero who has kindness in their eyes and saves little dragon birds is hardly convincing. It takes away the empowerment of leading an army towards a cause, because the cause is ridiculous. While I enjoy Conquest's intense gameplay, as I mow down my 'enemies' and win the map I feel unsatisfied because I'm like... why am I DOING this? That's a sign of a poorly written protagonist, when you feel like the closer they are to reaching their goal the more you disconnect with them.

I'm not saying don't criticize them, I AM however saying you shouldn't use Mary Sue as a reason to criticize the Avatar unless you are willing to hit everyone else with it.

The writing itself is not a reason to say "Mary Sue is more valid regarding this character".

To me it seems like you're being far too rude for no reason at all; NekoKnight has said absolutely nothing to warrant such hostility, and he's right in that your reasoning is incredibly vague.

Mary Sue is not a term to be thrown around lightly, since everyone seems to have various interpretations of what one actually is; some people don't even think non fanfic characters should count, for instance. However, I'd say Corrin is undoubtedly the one with the most TRAITS, what with the aforementioned player worship and twisting of the narrative.

Sure, maybe I'm being too rude. But... meh.

Just because The Avatar has a lot of traits of a Mary Sue compared to others, doesn't mean it invalidates the argument that everyone else is, so don't use that as a stick to beat the Avatar with if you aren't going to beat everyone else with it. Pick one, either leave the stick alone, or hit everyone with it.

EXACTLY! There's nothing worse than a character that doesn't change. As a creative writing major and an author of a few books, this is a major no-no when writing characters. Corrin is the equivalent of a stubborn cardboard box. Not even the brutal slaughter of Charlotte is enough to change his ways. Just what will it TAKE?

As a Hobbyist writer (when I was younger I wanted to be a writer. I was decent at it, but I ended up dropping that in favor of doing programming stuff and writing my own personal me-only stuff as a hobby), I get somewhat irked when characters never change (Seriously, I expected the Avatar to snap at some point). Even when I have a billion characters (at least it feels that way) I still try and change each of them over my very hobbyist works.

[semolinaro]

Thanks.

I'd disagree that all or even most FE protagonists are Mary Sues. There are qualities that are associated with being a protagonist (charisma, competence, strong morals) but there reaches a point when the narrative warps to accommodate the character, especially for characters that players are meant to treat as themselves.

Scarlet*

If you brutally killed Charlotte, that one is on you. ;)

I don't even know what was going on in my head when I wrote that!! I meant Scarlet, lol.