So why exactly do people call Conquest Corrin an idiot?(Conquest spoilers)

[BruceLee]

lol this thread just took an awkward turn.

Edited March 6, 2016 by BruceLee

[Abysswalker25]

I'm pretty sure that this is a generally accepted definition for a Gary Stu, one who is utterely revered by the narrative, even when he shouldn't be, unless the story was told through first person POV, which means the narrative might still be biased, but would work in favor of the story since it would give the audience an insight into the narrator's mindset.

But Fates isn't told that way, so I think we can agree for the most part Corrin is a stu, or dangerously close to one, and that hurts the story the most.

I disagree on this, but everyone seems to have a different definition of what a stu is anyways.

[Sunwoo]

I'm pretty sure that this is a generally accepted definition for a Gary Stu, one who is utterely revered by the narrative, even when he shouldn't be, unless the story was told through first person POV, which means the narrative might still be biased, but would work in favor of the story since it would give the audience an insight into the narrator's mindset.

But Fates isn't told that way, so I think we can agree for the most part Corrin is a stu, or dangerously close to one, and that hurts the story the most.

I am one of the people who 100% think that Kamui is a Gary Stu/Mary Sue. I think the only other time I've seen a character who I felt so strongly about being one of those is Bella from Twilight.

Nohr!Kamui isn't exactly the best character to project a power fantasy on. However, they are a perfect example of another Mary Sue -- the "woobie" Mary Sue. Everything bad happens to them. Nothing goes their way. They're pathetic. And yet, everyone who is "good" still loves them. Nothing is their fault because they can never do wrong, and if they did it's just a side effect of their awful life! People who make them miserable or just plain don't like them are the bad guys and will be "corrected" of their views -- by being dead. Nohr!Kamui feels like a pity party.

[Jave]

Hold on, there are categories of Mary Sues now?

[Hunter Nightblood]

Hold on, there are categories of Mary Sues now?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySueTropes

[Sunwoo]

Hold on, there are categories of Mary Sues now?

Yes. I have always seen different categories of Mary Sues since I was really into writing fanfiction, this isn't exactly news to me. Looking at the list that Hunter Nightblood posted, Nohr!Kamui may fall under "Sympathetic Sue" more than anything else.

[Seanp12]

I don't have time to read the entire topic, but I will say that it's silly to single out Corrin for not recognizing Azura when nobody else did either. I think that one can be chalked up to the animators not wanting to make a heavily edited character model for a single cutscene. It was probably out of the writers' hands.

[Jave]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySueTropes

Some of these are ridiculous. You can boil down almost every protagonist in history as a Mary Sue of some sort.

It basically supports what I've been saying for years. The term Mary Sue gets thrown around so much it has basically lost all meaning.

[NekoKnight]

I don't have time to read the entire topic, but I will say that it's silly to single out Corrin for not recognizing Azura when nobody else did either. I think that one can be chalked up to the animators not wanting to make a heavily edited character model for a single cutscene. It was probably out of the writers' hands.

It's somebody's fault. Pointing fingers at either the writers or the cutscene artists doesn't change the fact that no one recognizing Azura strains belief.

Some of these are ridiculous. You can boil down almost every protagonist in history as a Mary Sue of some sort.

It basically supports what I've been saying for years. The term Mary Sue gets thrown around so much it has basically lost all meaning.

The definitions are broad and reaching, but it's to cover a lot of nuances of the topic. The basics of Mary Sue is a character that is excessively special/sympathetic/powerful/important in a way that doesn't make sense in the rest of the narrative. Some will misuse the term but it has its place in discussion.

[maybe]

People who make them miserable or just plain don't like them are the bad guys and will be "corrected" of their views -- by being dead. Nohr!Kamui feels like a pity party.

Don't be silly, no one dies when Kamui is around! They just get non-lethally stabbed until they fall over and have axes non-lethally shoved through their heads!

[Thane]

Don't be silly, no one dies when Kamui is around! They just get non-lethally stabbed until they fall over and have axes non-lethally shoved through their heads!

I remember the first time I played through Conquest and got a crit with a Dragon Fang on an archer with two HP left. Then Rinkah told me everyone survived.

Wat.

(I know, I know, gameplay and story segregation but come on)

[Nintales]

Don't be silly, no one dies when Kamui is around! They just get non-lethally stabbed until they fall over and have axes non-lethally shoved through their heads!

Yeah, that is pretty much ridiculous. Especially if you're a Master Ninja and activate Lethality.

Uuuuh... Woops?

Corrin must have above-human powers to make them only knock out from those deadly blows. I don't even know how that works.

I can get how someone smashed by a Club can survive, and how you can make so your Scrolls, Arrows and Tomes aren't lethal.

But with Swords, Lances, and Axes?

Good luck with that. You're just cutting their hands I guess.

Edited March 6, 2016 by Nintales

[NekoKnight]

Yeah, that is pretty much ridiculous. Especially if you're a Master Ninja and activate Lethality.

Uuuuh... Woops?

Corrin must have above-human powers to make them only knock out from those deadly blows. I don't even know how that works.

I can get how someone smashed by a Club can survive, and how you can make so your Scrolls, Arrows and Tomes aren't lethal.

But with Swords, Lances, and Axes?

Good luck with that. You're just cutting their hands I guess.

I can respect HP depletion just representing when a character can't fight anymore, whether that means them getting their head cut off or having their arm broken. Perhaps gameplay shows them getting impaled but in reality it was just their leg getting stabbed so they can't fight anymore. Not that I think it's believable, but there is divide between gameplay and story.

[maybe]

Yeah, that is pretty much ridiculous. Especially if you're a Master Ninja and activate Lethality.

Uuuuh... Woops?

Corrin must have above-human powers to make them only knock out from those deadly blows. I don't even know how that works.

I can get how someone smashed by a Club can survive, and how you can make so your Scrolls, Arrows and Tomes aren't lethal.

But with Swords, Lances, and Axes?

Good luck with that. You're just cutting their hands I guess.

well i mean

it's technically kinda possible to just knock them over with the sword, if they attack sort of lightly and not on the edge of the sword, if the enemy is just extremely weak and stupid

in fact, they actually do the "we killed them, except we didn't" a lot in fire emblem games, where you kill a boss and they're still alive

but i just find it really dumb that they can go through a whole battle with these guys and NO ONE dies

it just seems... impossible, considering the way they fight in this game

call it a nitpick but it just bothers me a lot

Edited March 6, 2016 by maybe

[Thane]

I can respect HP depletion just representing when a character can't fight anymore, whether that means them getting their head cut off or having their arm broken. Perhaps gameplay shows them getting impaled but in reality it was just their leg getting stabbed so they can't fight anymore. Not that I think it's believable, but there is divide between gameplay and story.

I don't think anyone's doubting that; otherwise we wouldn't have been able to fight any of the siblings until the endgame. The problem is Corrin winning entire fights without anyone dying at all; I can only imagine how difficult it would be to win ONE fight while holding back, let alone every single one in a full-fledged battle.

[Seanp12]

I'm a few chapters from the end of Conquest, and I already played Birthright, and I think I appreciate Conquest's story better than I would have if I had not played Birthright first. One side is morally right and preserves more innocent lives, but results in a number of deaths to those close to you, making the cost personally high. (Though a lot of those deaths are just downright unnecessary. At least

Xander and Elise's deaths illustrate the final collapse of the Nohrian family, however ham-fisted. Kaze (if he did die), Flora, Lilith, and Azura's death seem like they occurred just to spoil the happy ending as much as possible, so that Revelation could be the "best" route.

) Conquest, on the other hand, shows the avatar putting those close to him first at the cost of those he doesn't know. I probably wouldn't like it very much as a standalone story, but (ignoring the reason for Azura's plan) I can appreciate it as the more selfish of the two routes for Corrin and an exploration of how compromising morals corrupts a person. (I feel I should mention that I haven't finished Conquest yet--so I don't know if the ending considers him corrupted or not. People have been saying it doesn't, but they also say that Takumi is portrayed as being morally wrong in Conquest, while I see a figure that reminds me of Ephraim!Lyon in Sacred Stones--trying to do good things the wrong way. So I'm waiting to find out for myself.) It's not what I expected or wanted, but I don't hate it either, probably because Serenes lowered my expectations so low that I could more easily appreciate the parts that I like and overlook the parts I don't.

[Nintales]

I don't think anyone's doubting that; otherwise we wouldn't have been able to fight any of the siblings until the endgame. The problem is Corrin winning entire fights without anyone dying at all; I can only imagine how difficult it would be to win ONE fight while holding back, let alone every single one in a full-fledged battle.

That's just funny. How can you win a fight with noone dying? Especially with people like Charlotte and Belka around?

[Water Mage]

That's just funny. How can you win a fight with noone dying? Especially with people like Charlotte and Belka around?

It is stated in the game that in Conquest, Corrin and the others fight without killing anyone.

Yes, even Peri doesn't kill anyone.

[Seanp12]

Arthur stops them heroically.

[BruceLee]

I'm a few chapters from the end of Conquest, and I already played Birthright, and I think I appreciate Conquest's story better than I would have if I had not played Birthright first. One side is morally right and preserves more innocent lives, but results in a number of deaths to those close to you, making the cost personally high. (Though a lot of those deaths are just downright unnecessary. At least

Xander and Elise's deaths illustrate the final collapse of the Nohrian family, however ham-fisted. Kaze (if he did die), Flora, Lilith, and Azura's death seem like they occurred just to spoil the happy ending as much as possible, so that Revelation could be the "best" route.

) Conquest, on the other hand, shows the avatar putting those close to him first at the cost of those he doesn't know. I probably wouldn't like it very much as a standalone story, but (ignoring the reason for Azura's plan) I can appreciate it as the more selfish of the two routes for Corrin and an exploration of how compromising morals corrupts a person. (I feel I should mention that I haven't finished Conquest yet--so I don't know if the ending considers him corrupted or not. People have been saying it doesn't, but they also say that Takumi is portrayed as being morally wrong in Conquest, while I see a figure that reminds me of Ephraim!Lyon in Sacred Stones--trying to do good things the wrong way. So I'm waiting to find out for myself.) It's not what I expected or wanted, but I don't hate it either, probably because Serenes lowered my expectations so low that I could more easily appreciate the parts that I like and overlook the parts I don't.

That's an interesting take on it. What chapter are you at?

[NekoKnight]

I don't think anyone's doubting that; otherwise we wouldn't have been able to fight any of the siblings until the endgame. The problem is Corrin winning entire fights without anyone dying at all; I can only imagine how difficult it would be to win ONE fight while holding back, let alone every single one in a full-fledged battle.

Right. The enemies are certainly not holding back so Kamui's soldiers would be putting themselves at a great risk to fight anything below their true strength.

[spoiler=Conquest 19]

What happened to Kamui's "no kill" policy with the foxes? Did his miraculous ability to win fights without killing anyone disappear just to add some drama? I will accept that Kamui secretly wanted them all dead after dealing with their invulnerability gimmick.

[Thane]

Right. The enemies are certainly not holding back so Kamui's soldiers would be putting themselves at a great risk to fight anything below their true strength.

[spoiler=Conquest 19]

What happened to Kamui's "no kill" policy with the foxes? Did his miraculous ability to win fights without killing anyone disappear just to add some drama? I will accept that Kamui secretly wanted them all dead after dealing with their invulnerability gimmick.

[spoiler=True Conquest plot twist]Corrin was a poacher all along. Nishiki was right.

[Nintales]

Right. The enemies are certainly not holding back so Kamui's soldiers would be putting themselves at a great risk to fight anything below their true strength.

[spoiler=Conquest 19]

What happened to Kamui's "no kill" policy with the foxes? Did his miraculous ability to win fights without killing anyone disappear just to add some drama? I will accept that Kamui secretly wanted them all dead after dealing with their invulnerability gimmick.

I just watched again the chapter.

Apparently, according to Azura, we can hold back against Hoshidian troops because their will to kill isn't as high as the Kitsune.

I think more that Kamui's troops are just racist and all.

[BrightBow]

It is stated in the game that in Conquest, Corrin and the others fight without killing anyone.

Yes, even Peri doesn't kill anyone.

So wait, when people say Corrin wins battles without killing anyone, they actually do mean it literally? As in he doesn't just avoid killing named characters but literally any soldier at all?

Edited March 6, 2016 by BrightBow

[BruceLee]

So are we still supposed to appreciate Kamui for not getting anyone killed in his battles during the invasion of Hoshido, even though Garon/Hans/Iago's armies are slaughtering anyone they come across? Those deaths are ok because Kamui isn't directly involved right?