In which blah the Prussian blind reacts to FE Fates: Conquest

[Dark Holy Elf]

I haven't had enough time of late to both read and respond to this thread, so now that it's basically done I'll say that even as someone who enjoyed the plot more than the average person in this thread, this was a fun read. So thanks~

If you didn't play all of Birthright, try playing it until the end or at least of videos of it's story. The ending feels much more fufiling. Also, Birthright's endgame also have an afterlife scene, but it's so much better used.
It felt like Corrin was finally growing up, leaving his past behind.
Actually, it felt like a coming of age event, from a child to an adult.
Maybe I shouldn't be asking this in this thread, but for those that played both routes, which "afterlife" scene was better?

Both afterlife scenes are really silly and I can't say I liked either (nor, generally, do I enjoy these eleventh hour "OMG THE FINAL BOSS IS SO IMPOSSSSSIBLE j/k we win" scenes that RPGs seem to love to cram in). Birthright's wins by default because your connection to Xander and Elise is much closer than your connection to Ryoma and especially Takumi, though.

[blah the Prussian]

I always got a more Celtic feel from the Conquest music to be honest, but interesting to know that. Wonder what made them go with that decision. It would be nice if we got some commentary or something from the composer of Fates music, and why they made the choices they did with it.

Have a question for something I didnt see you go over, how did you like the non-story important characters? The ones like Nyx, Keaton, Benny, Charlotte, etc. And how did you like the supports? While Conquest's story was definitely not great by any stretch of the imagination, I did enjoy quite a few of the characters and thought some of the supports were really well done.

and I am also curious about what characters you used.

There were certainly bagpipes, but the lyre, which was Greco-Roman, was also present. In any case, my team:

Corrin, Felicia, Xander, Peri, Elise, Silas, Camilla, Niles, Leo, Charlotte, Arthur, Effie, Selena, and Beruka. Arthur is my favorite minor character in any story ever, I find Charlotte hilarious because she sounds exactly like this one girl I knew in the US, in both voice and personality, Niles is a nice deconstruction of the Edgelord, Selena is much better than Severa, Beruka seemed kind of generic, and those are the only minor characters I really have an opinion about. I agree with most that Leo is an actual good character and would make a far better King than Xander, and I think Camilla could have been interesting if her issues were dealt with in the story, rather than the supports. Xander is a dumbass, and Elise, while she can be so sweet she gives me diabetes, is also occasionally fine. I also generally notice a pattern that I like characters who hardly ever interact with Corrin better, with Leo as the only exception.

[Book Bro]

Maybe I shouldn't be asking this in this thread, but for those that played both routes, which "afterlife" scene was better?

Birthright by far, though it was stupid too. I hope this "being called back from death by the power of friendship" doesn't happen again. There's better ways to make the villain threatening than by fake-killing the main character at the last minute.

[Truthblade]

There were certainly bagpipes, but the lyre, which was Greco-Roman, was also present. In any case, my team:

Corrin, Felicia, Xander, Peri, Elise, Silas, Camilla, Niles, Leo, Charlotte, Arthur, Effie, Selena, and Beruka. Arthur is my favorite minor character in any story ever, I find Charlotte hilarious because she sounds exactly like this one girl I knew in the US, in both voice and personality, Niles is a nice deconstruction of the Edgelord, Selena is much better than Severa, Beruka seemed kind of generic, and those are the only minor characters I really have an opinion about. I agree with most that Leo is an actual good character and would make a far better King than Xander, and I think Camilla could have been interesting if her issues were dealt with in the story, rather than the supports. Xander is a dumbass, and Elise, while she can be so sweet she gives me diabetes, is also occasionally fine. I also generally notice a pattern that I like characters who hardly ever interact with Corrin better, with Leo as the only exception.

Did you support her with the other awakening expies?

Cause she IS Severa. Literally.

[NekoKnight]

Did you support her with the other awakening expies?

Cause she IS Severa. Literally.

I think he's aware they're the same character. Selena seems a bit more mellowed out compared to her younger, bitchier self.

[Tolvir]

There were certainly bagpipes, but the lyre, which was Greco-Roman, was also present. In any case, my team:

Corrin, Felicia, Xander, Peri, Elise, Silas, Camilla, Niles, Leo, Charlotte, Arthur, Effie, Selena, and Beruka. Arthur is my favorite minor character in any story ever, I find Charlotte hilarious because she sounds exactly like this one girl I knew in the US, in both voice and personality, Niles is a nice deconstruction of the Edgelord, Selena is much better than Severa, Beruka seemed kind of generic, and those are the only minor characters I really have an opinion about. I agree with most that Leo is an actual good character and would make a far better King than Xander, and I think Camilla could have been interesting if her issues were dealt with in the story, rather than the supports. Xander is a dumbass, and Elise, while she can be so sweet she gives me diabetes, is also occasionally fine. I also generally notice a pattern that I like characters who hardly ever interact with Corrin better, with Leo as the only exception.

I ended up using Corrin (of course), Xander, Camilla, Kaze, Nyx, Benny, Laslow, Pieri, Silas, Elise, Keaton, Midori, Niles, and Gunter.

While I liked Leo as a character, I have a hard time using him as a unit. He doesnt do bad, he just always ends up falling behind. Character wise, Leo would definitely be a better king than Xander. It sucks because I really wanted to like Xander when I started, and still do in regards to his supports, but story wise, like you said, he is just a dumbass. I actually find Benny to be better than Effie in defense. The guy is just a moving brick wall when it comes to both magic and physical damage, since both of the defensive stats end up with great growths, at least for me. I can see why Effie is preferable for people, since she is more likely to kill than Benny is, but the way I play, killing is the mages/rogues/and other offensive classes jobs so the knight just needs to absorb the damage. I did end up with Gunter being a problem later on though, since he is a prepromote and you get him back later in the game, he ends up falling behind a bit, but he served his purpose well enough. Selena was so much better in this one than in Awakening. Its really what made me not mind the returning Awakening characters, since they felt like they have matured and grown up since the previous game, with the exception of Odin.

I actually hate the majority of Corrin's supports. I really didnt like his personality as I felt it changed too much, and they all felt really generic. I much prefered Robin's supports since it felt like he was an actual character with a personality interacting with the others in believable ways, rather than a fanfics self insert with generic reactions and lines.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Tolvir

[blah the Prussian]

Did you support her with the other awakening expies?

Cause she IS Severa. Literally.

Wait, that's a spoiler? I thought it was obvious.

[B.Leu]

First off, that's Yurius, not Julius.

The gameplay and soundtrack is always a blast. No denying. They really did a good job on these.

So yeah, I really enjoyed the topic, learned a few things, laughed a lot, So thanks.a lot too !

Wait, that's a spoiler? I thought it was obvious.

Let's put it that way: it's just so obvious, and if it was the case,it would be just pain retarded, so obviously, there's no way it could be true.
Turns out, it's just that. GG IS. Best writing ever. 20/20 jeuxvideo.com

Friendly advice, be sure to really enjoy Radiant Historia, because Revelation will probably make you go coo-coo.

Edited May 3, 2016 by B.Leu

[blah the Prussian]

First off, that's Yurius, not Julius.

The gameplay and soundtrack is always a blast. No denying. They really did a good job on these.

So yeah, I really enjoyed the topic, learned a few things, laughed a lot, So thanks.a lot too !

Let's put it that way: it's just so obvious, and if it was the case,it would be just pain retarded, so obviously, there's no way it could be true.

Turns out, it's just that. GG IS. Best writing ever. 20/20 jeuxvideo.com

Friendly advice, be sure to really enjoy Radiant Historia, because Revelation will probably make you go coo-coo.

Well the alternative is worse. "Oh yeah, even though she looks just like Severa she actually isn't Severa". That would be just blatant fanservice. Admittedly this is little better, but at least she was developed as a character. I actually want to know why she changed her name; no one would actually recognize Severa.

[Azure Sen]

Well the alternative is worse. "Oh yeah, even though she looks just like Severa she actually isn't Severa". That would be just blatant fanservice. Admittedly this is little better, but at least she was developed as a character. I actually want to know why she changed her name; no one would actually recognize Severa.

My theory is that Odin, Laslow and Selena were never actually meant to be Owain, Inigo and Severa, but that IntSys changed it at some point in development, probably due to the less than stellar reaction the trio got initially.

[B.Leu]

Well the alternative is worse. "Oh yeah, even though she looks just like Severa she actually isn't Severa". That would be just blatant fanservice. Admittedly this is little better, but at least she was developed as a character. I actually want to know why she changed her name; no one would actually recognize Severa.

Eh, I would have prefered simple and blabant fanservice to... that.

You will rip your eyeballs apart when you'll see those things.

My theory is that Odin, Laslow and Selena were never actually meant to be Owain, Inigo and Severa, but that IntSys changed it at some point in development, probably due to the less than stellar reaction the trio got initially.

It sounds legit too. Especially then you consider that it could be the case for a lot of things in the game: thing is this, only to be changed to that at the last moment without any other change..

Seriously, who thought it would be a good idea to do those things in IS ? Or rather, who thought it would be smart writing ? Sigh.

Edited May 3, 2016 by B.Leu

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Frankly if THAT thing doesn't exist, and all we had with Awakening trio is "they travel around" it would be better than the story we do get right now, which had so many unfunny issues about it

[saisymbolic]

Well the alternative is worse. "Oh yeah, even though she looks just like Severa she actually isn't Severa". That would be just blatant fanservice. Admittedly this is little better, but at least she was developed as a character. I actually want to know why she changed her name; no one would actually recognize Severa.

LOL. You scorn the alternative but, as a few have already pointed out, you'll soon wish it was reality.

Honestly, I thought the Awakening trio would have something similar to the Final Fantasy Cid treatment. The same characters but different role, personality and purpose. It would have been fanservice but I thought it would have been interesting to give these characters a different take then their previous personas.

[The DanMan]

My theory is that Odin, Laslow and Selena were never actually meant to be Owain, Inigo and Severa, but that IntSys changed it at some point in development, probably due to the less than stellar reaction the trio got initially.

That would make sense and explain... things.

Well the alternative is worse. "Oh yeah, even though she looks just like Severa she actually isn't Severa". That would be just blatant fanservice. Admittedly this is little better, but at least she was developed as a character. I actually want to know why she changed her name; no one would actually recognize Severa.

Future you sent me a PM and told me to tell you that you don't want to know.

[Pepperyena]

I finished the game not too shortly after you did, it seems. I had a similar problem with the endgame - if it makes you feel any better.

See, I didn't fully understand how the mechanics of Takumi's attack worked. I had Niles positioned in such a way that made it so only a single Malig Knight could reach him. Having his high resistance, he was fine.

Of course, Takumi's attack struck, and doing so resulted in the removal of one of the walls. Niles' HP was halved, and now a motherfucker with a Silver Lance was ready to come up and smack poor Niles. This also allowed the Malig Knight to get in a supported attack. Add in a 40% attack hitting, and there he goes. It's a shame I was dumb enough as to not foresee what his attack would do, right?

So I eventually decided to continue the chapter, despite wanting all of my units to survive. Why? I had a Bifröst in my convoy, and I had Dwyer with an A-rank in Staves. I came up with a challenge for myself - survive long enough to get Dwyer's staff level to S so I can revive Niles and then finish the chapter.

Due to the relentless nature of the reinforcements, and the limits amount of walls to hide behind - (I wasn't using any so that I had targets for Dwyer to heal) - I managed to lose another unit and start all the way back at chapter 27. At the VERY LEAST, that chapter isn't too long if you know what you're doing.

Your opinions on the plot are interesting. While it is the worst of any Fire Emblem game I've played so far and lacks so much soul in the characters and writing, it was passable enough for me. Alas, there were so many better directions to take with the characters. But hey, 'least the music is god-tier.

[blah the Prussian]

I finished the game not too shortly after you did, it seems. I had a similar problem with the endgame - if it makes you feel any better.

See, I didn't fully understand how the mechanics of Takumi's attack worked. I had Niles positioned in such a way that made it so only a single Malig Knight could reach him. Having his high resistance, he was fine.

Of course, Takumi's attack struck, and doing so resulted in the removal of one of the walls. Niles' HP was halved, and now a motherfucker with a Silver Lance was ready to come up and smack poor Niles. This also allowed the Malig Knight to get in a supported attack. Add in a 40% attack hitting, and there he goes. It's a shame I was dumb enough as to not foresee what his attack would do, right?

So I eventually decided to continue the chapter, despite wanting all of my units to survive. Why? I had a Bifröst in my convoy, and I had Dwyer with an A-rank in Staves. I came up with a challenge for myself - survive long enough to get Dwyer's staff level to S so I can revive Niles and then finish the chapter.

Due to the relentless nature of the reinforcements, and the limits amount of walls to hide behind - (I wasn't using any so that I had targets for Dwyer to heal) - I managed to lose another unit and start all the way back at chapter 27. At the VERY LEAST, that chapter isn't too long if you know what you're doing.

Your opinions on the plot are interesting. While it is the worst of any Fire Emblem game I've played so far and lacks so much soul in the characters and writing, it was passable enough for me. Alas, there were so many better directions to take with the characters. But hey, 'least the music is god-tier.

Yeah, I basically just went full on fuck the casualties for the endgame; its why I said I went full Stalin.

[Water Mage]

That reminds me, a lot of the criticism to Fates's story is fact that it they had a lot potential to be great story but the potential was wasted.

What about you blah? Since this is a thread about your opinions, I'm curious, did you think that Fates had the potential to be a great story? And that the potential was wasted?

[blah the Prussian]

That reminds me, a lot of the criticism to Fates's story is fact that it they had a lot potential to be great story but the potential was wasted.

What about you blah? Since this is a thread about your opinions, I'm curious, did you think that Fates had the potential to be a great story? And that the potential was wasted?

The premise was good and you could see good ideas buried under the surface; Takumi's character arc and pre goo Garon could have been interesting. Unfortunately, two things fundamentally went wrong: first was making Corrin the focus of the story rather than having him play more of a Robin role to Xander or Ryoma's Chrom, and second was the existence of a third route. While it means a third game, it also means that the central theme of the game is fucked into the ground because you now have a way where you can save everyone, and that is not how conflicts like these work. Fix those issues and you can work from there to fix the story. I may actually write up a brief summary of what I think Conquest's story should have been.

Basically one big problem with it is that, while Nohr has its fair share of internal politics, basically everyone in Hoshido loves the Royal Family and is committed to fighting Nohr. Lets contrast this with Radiant Historia, which is shaping up to be an amazing story. I'm five hours in to that game, and both sides are already extremely nuanced, and with just two nations. On the "evil" Empire side you have this Queen who does nothing, but then her two generals run the show behind the scenes and are shown to be generally competent people, and nothing has suggested that they're evil. In the "good" country, meanwhile, its pretty obvious that the church that rues the nation is now hugely corrupt, and the leader is just a puppet. There are good people and bad people in each country, and the conflict doesn't happen because one nation wants more land, it happens because they need to fight. It isn't that one country has its token Camus, either. I'm not saying the bad guy country shouldn't be blatantly pure evil; Path of Radiance pulled that off fine, by giving Daein motivations beyond "well the King is possessed". No one goes to war just to conquer, and thats basically why Nohr went to war here.

[The DanMan]

The premise was good and you could see good ideas buried under the surface; Takumi's character arc and pre goo Garon could have been interesting. Unfortunately, two things fundamentally went wrong: first was making Corrin the focus of the story rather than having him play more of a Robin role to Xander or Ryoma's Chrom, and second was the existence of a third route. While it means a third game, it also means that the central theme of the game is fucked into the ground because you now have a way where you can save everyone, and that is not how conflicts like these work. Fix those issues and you can work from there to fix the story. I may actually write up a brief summary of what I think Conquest's story should have been.

Basically one big problem with it is that, while Nohr has its fair share of internal politics, basically everyone in Hoshido loves the Royal Family and is committed to fighting Nohr. Lets contrast this with Radiant Historia, which is shaping up to be an amazing story. I'm five hours in to that game, and both sides are already extremely nuanced, and with just two nations. On the "evil" Empire side you have this Queen who does nothing, but then her two generals run the show behind the scenes and are shown to be generally competent people, and nothing has suggested that they're evil. In the "good" country, meanwhile, its pretty obvious that the church that rues the nation is now hugely corrupt, and the leader is just a puppet. There are good people and bad people in each country, and the conflict doesn't happen because one nation wants more land, it happens because they need to fight. It isn't that one country has its token Camus, either. I'm not saying the bad guy country shouldn't be blatantly pure evil; Path of Radiance pulled that off fine, by giving Daein motivations beyond "well the King is possessed". No one goes to war just to conquer, and thats basically why Nohr went to war here.

I agree whole-heartedly with your plot assessment. If you excised the 3rd route entirely and everything related to it, then most of Fates' story problems are solved. Then simply do less player worship and let Corrin develop as a character, and you've got a decent plot.

[Book Bro]

The premise was good and you could see good ideas buried under the surface; Takumi's character arc and pre goo Garon could have been interesting. Unfortunately, two things fundamentally went wrong: first was making Corrin the focus of the story rather than having him play more of a Robin role to Xander or Ryoma's Chrom, and second was the existence of a third route. While it means a third game, it also means that the central theme of the game is fucked into the ground because you now have a way where you can save everyone, and that is not how conflicts like these work. Fix those issues and you can work from there to fix the story. I may actually write up a brief summary of what I think Conquest's story should have been.

I love it. Now I understand why the first chapter of Revelation is called

Into the Ground

Basically one big problem with it is that, while Nohr has its fair share of internal politics, basically everyone in Hoshido loves the Royal Family and is committed to fighting Nohr. Lets contrast this with Radiant Historia, which is shaping up to be an amazing story. I'm five hours in to that game, and both sides are already extremely nuanced, and with just two nations. On the "evil" Empire side you have this Queen who does nothing, but then her two generals run the show behind the scenes and are shown to be generally competent people, and nothing has suggested that they're evil. In the "good" country, meanwhile, its pretty obvious that the church that rues the nation is now hugely corrupt, and the leader is just a puppet. There are good people and bad people in each country, and the conflict doesn't happen because one nation wants more land, it happens because they need to fight. It isn't that one country has its token Camus, either. I'm not saying the bad guy country shouldn't be blatantly pure evil; Path of Radiance pulled that off fine, by giving Daein motivations beyond "well the King is possessed". No one goes to war just to conquer, and thats basically why Nohr went to war here.

Yep, these games have basically zero politics in their stories. Even the simplest question, why are Nohr and Hoshido at war, doesn't have an answer. It's nuts, even Awakening gave backstory on the conflict between Plegia and Ylisse and gave Walhart a political reason for wanting to conquer the world. The worst part is that you have the seeds right there, with the crop issue, the political conflict within the Nohrian family,

the inner issues of having Mikoto and Aqua accepted by Hoshido,

all mentioned but never examined further.

The story also suffers from having nothing explained about Anankos or the religions of Dawn/Dusk/Silent Dragon worship, until literally the last two chapters of Revelation when you get a half-assed attempt at justifying Anankos and Valla's existence.

[Book Bro]

Double post

Edited May 5, 2016 by Book Bro

[saisymbolic]

The premise was good and you could see good ideas buried under the surface; Takumi's character arc and pre goo Garon could have been interesting. Unfortunately, two things fundamentally went wrong: first was making Corrin the focus of the story rather than having him play more of a Robin role to Xander or Ryoma's Chrom, and second was the existence of a third route. While it means a third game, it also means that the central theme of the game is fucked into the ground because you now have a way where you can save everyone, and that is not how conflicts like these work. Fix those issues and you can work from there to fix the story. I may actually write up a brief summary of what I think Conquest's story should have been.

Basically one big problem with it is that, while Nohr has its fair share of internal politics, basically everyone in Hoshido loves the Royal Family and is committed to fighting Nohr. Lets contrast this with Radiant Historia, which is shaping up to be an amazing story. I'm five hours in to that game, and both sides are already extremely nuanced, and with just two nations. On the "evil" Empire side you have this Queen who does nothing, but then her two generals run the show behind the scenes and are shown to be generally competent people, and nothing has suggested that they're evil. In the "good" country, meanwhile, its pretty obvious that the church that rues the nation is now hugely corrupt, and the leader is just a puppet. There are good people and bad people in each country, and the conflict doesn't happen because one nation wants more land, it happens because they need to fight. It isn't that one country has its token Camus, either. I'm not saying the bad guy country shouldn't be blatantly pure evil; Path of Radiance pulled that off fine, by giving Daein motivations beyond "well the King is possessed". No one goes to war just to conquer, and thats basically why Nohr went to war here.

Yup. Essentially how I feel.

I have said this a billion times and will gladly say it until I run out of air: the existence of Revelation further ruined the story and defeats the purpose of picking a side, staying committed to it and accepting the consequences of making that choice (unless you buy the other route). Instead of focusing on each individual route and refining the stories therein, they were too preoccupied pointing "hints" to Revelation, leaving behind shoddy writing and practically no character or world building.

I still like Fates but IS is going to have to step up their writing game for the next game.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

To be fair, the frustrating mysteriousness isn't entirely Revelation's fault. There's a lot of weird detail left out that would give much better context to some of the situations in Conquest that is only adequately explained in Birthright and vice versa. So even if Revelation were to suddenly not exist, I wager that other routes would just fill the free space by pointing to things in the other one.

[kcirrot]

I think even if Revelation didn't exist, Conquest would still suck. From chapter 7 on, it was completely unbelievable to me that any rational actor would behave as Corrin did. Even someone irrational and rather stupid would have figured out that they should probably get the heck out of Nohr given that their 'father' ordered your older brother to murder you for the lulz.

I think if Revelation were an expansion that built off of Birthright and Conquest that would have been better. But Conquest would still need to be substantially re-written. Probably with an open rebellion against Garon or go full evil and have Corrin just be totally cool with killing everyone in Hoshido.

[saisymbolic]

To be fair, the frustrating mysteriousness isn't entirely Revelation's fault. There's a lot of weird detail left out that would give much better context to some of the situations in Conquest that is only adequately explained in Birthright and vice versa. So even if Revelation were to suddenly not exist, I wager that other routes would just fill the free space by pointing to things in the other one.

I think even if Revelation didn't exist, Conquest would still suck. From chapter 7 on, it was completely unbelievable to me that any rational actor would behave as Corrin did. Even someone irrational and rather stupid would have figured out that they should probably get the heck out of Nohr given that their 'father' ordered your older brother to murder you for the lulz.

I think if Revelation were an expansion that built off of Birthright and Conquest that would have been better. But Conquest would still need to be substantially re-written. Probably with an open rebellion against Garon or go full evil and have Corrin just be totally cool with killing everyone in Hoshido.

Of course, Fates, as it is, would still be bad even without Revelation, however, the point I meant was that taking away Revelation would force the other routes to be rewritten. Elements such as the Golden Throne and the Crystal Ball would not exist or have no place in the story. Taking away the Crystal Ball would essentially take away the entire reason for invading Hoshido in the first place; it would force the story to take a different direction. As much as I love Conquest, it would need a rebuilding from the ground up as stated. That much is certain. Birthright could get away with some minor tweaking, honestly.

Both stories could have been done better but I still think the focus on setting up "the real big bad" in the other two paths (most Conquest) ultimately did not help Fates' story and hindered the other two routes in several areas.