In which blah the Prussian blind reacts to FE Fates: Conquest

[shadowofchaos]

Don't smack talk dat OG ninja Saizou the V. Kaze is irrelevent, though. Tru, fam.

Is there a code of Bushido in Hoshido? I mean, look at the names! Is Hoshido Bushido? Is it the living embodiment of the code of Bushido?

Real Japanese talk, it's "Byakuya" in the JP version. So in case you were serious, that's a no.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Water Mage already covered this in the most part, but seriously I'm getting really sick of this shit.

1. That was not a hospital.

2. Ryouma didn't hold a sick person hostage. He didn't even know Elise was sick until a certain idiotic lord opened their mouth. He came just to fight Kamui, that's it. He also didn't force Kamui to go with him. He gave Kamui a choice. Ryouma has no obligation to the sick princess of an enemy country. What a shocker, right?

3. So being realistic is Garon-level villainy now? Giving the medicine to Elise would, what, lose the respect of his soldiers because their king is "weak"? Ensure that Elise continues to be a nuisance on the battlefield, both as a healer and a future fighter? It's not like saving Elise's life is going to soften up Garon or Marx so he's all "well you saved my youngest daughter/sister, so we'll stop invading Hoshido or we'll be nice to you when we do conquer you". Nope. The only reason Ryouma has to help Elise is so that the fanbase doesn't grill him for it.

Here's a nice Conquest 12 meta written up by SF user Thor Odinson: http://luminescentblade.tumblr.com/post/137673508044/so-i-was-thinking-about-things-and-i-dont-wanna

And here's a question from me. Why is it that Ryouma gets so much hate over chapter 12, and a lot of people twisting facts to fit their interpretation, and no one cares that Silas and Nohr were attacking a literal hospital in Birthright 7? Nohr bias.

Dude, settle down. It's not like I'm saying this to provoke you or anything. These are what I got out of the game as presented to me. We just spent the last two pages going over most of this stuff too, so why the repeat?

He did essentially hold her hostage, because the choice was either "you or your sister's life", even Corrin's appeal was probably not the best idea. As I've admitted, he made the fully pragmatic choice, but that doesn't mean the characters can't call him out on it, even if he tells them off right back.

And perhaps the "Garon-level villainy" was a poor way of wording it here, but that's the way I'd see Hoshido seeing it if the situation were reversed. See the last two pages to address pretty much everything else you've said.

Nah, the Nohr soldiers were clearly being dicks for attacking the hospital (dunno if they actually knew it was, but I doubt Garon would've cared). I think it has less of an impact on some people because the game is busy writing "these guys are gigantic, evil dicks" in neon on the foreheads of Nohr as it is. I have to admit that I was a little bit more forgiving of Silas, although mostly because the game makes a point of addressing it by saying he was hesitant and holding back. Still lost a bit of respect for him there, though.

EDIT: Oh, and it's worth noting that it's the act, not that it's Elise, that made me raise an eyebrow. The game could have selected someone totally random from the team: Silas, Selena, Odin, whatever. Hell, it could've been a generic Lancer and I still would've been asking questions.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi

[saisymbolic]

Real Japanese talk, it's "Byakuya" in the JP version. So in case you were serious, that's a no.

I wasn't serious. I just thought it was funny because my Google Chrom spell check suggested 'Bushido' when I typed 'Hoshido'.

[maybe]

Is there a code of Bushido in Hoshido? I mean, look at the names! Is Hoshido Bushido? Is it the living embodiment of the code of Bushido?

Actually... yes, there is

Edited April 7, 2016 by maybe

[Sunwoo]

Dude, settle down. It's not like I'm saying this to provoke you or anything. These are what I got out of the game as presented to me. We just spent the last two pages going over most of this stuff too, so why the repeat?

Because I wasn't even around to see the last two pages and therefore didn't see it. Not to mention just because it was already discussed doesn't mean I can't. By that logic, none of us would be having this discussion because it's been months since we've known this.

Also, I am perfectly calm despite sounding "mad". Treating me like I'm mad and telling me to settle down is going to make me more pissed off.

He did essentially hold her hostage, because the choice was either "you or your sister's life", even Corrin's appeal was probably not the best idea. As I've admitted, he made the fully pragmatic choice, but that doesn't mean the characters can't call him out on it, even if he tells them off right back.

Ryouma has no obligation to give a shit about Elise. The way I see it, even giving Kamui a choice was more than he even had to do. Also, what exactly are they going to call him out on? "Boo hoo, Prince Ryouma doesn't give a fuck about Princess Elise?" Well, I don't see why he would. Since, from his POV, Nohr is the reason why his mother and several civilians in the capital are dead. And Kamui chose the nation that had essentially taken everything from him as well. Nope, as of now there is no reason for him to care about Nohr. Like I said, it's not like they'll return the favor.

And perhaps the "Garon-level villainy" was a poor way of wording it here, but that's the way I'd see Hoshido seeing it if the situation were reversed.

It's a poor way of wording, period.

Nah, the Nohr soldiers were clearly being dicks for attacking the hospital (dunno if they actually knew it was, but I doubt Garon would've cared). I think it has less of an impact on some people because the game is busy writing "these guys are gigantic, evil dicks" in neon on the foreheads of Nohr as it is. I have to admit that I was a little bit more forgiving of Silas, although mostly because the game makes a point of addressing it by saying he was hesitant and holding back. Still lost a bit of respect for him there, though.

Consistency is a thing. If people are going to call out on side on this one thing, they better make it clear that you do so for the other side otherwise they're going to look like a silly hypocrite. Even if Nohr is portrayed as the "evil side", making it clear that you're not condoning either side is better than just not acknowledging it at all.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Sunwoo

[saisymbolic]

Actually... yes, there is

Huh.

Or is that translated? Or is it from the NoA version only?

[Truthblade]

Huh.

Or is that translated? Or is it from the NoA version only?

Well..

[spoiler=large image]

\

Way of the Warrior is the literal translation of Bushido.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Blade_of_Light

[saisymbolic]

Actually... yes, there is

Well..

[spoiler=large image]

Okay, so... so... Um, so...

...Unless I am mistaken...

Ryoma follows Bushido?

[Truthblade]

Okay, so... so... Um, so...

...Unless I am mistaken...

Ryoma follows Bushido?

Correct

Including its instructions of seppuku.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Blade_of_Light

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Because I wasn't even around to see the last two pages and therefore didn't see it. Not to mention just because it was already discussed doesn't mean I can't. By that logic, none of us would be having this discussion because it's been months since we've known this.

Um, no? You grabbed my post specifically while ignoring everything in between. What am I supposed to think when you do that? Whereas, in your scenario, you're talking about posts long buried from before I even started playing the game.

Also, I am perfectly calm despite sounding "mad". Treating me like I'm mad and telling me to settle down is going to make me more pissed off.

Ryouma has no obligation to give a shit about Elise. The way I see it, even giving Kamui a choice was more than he even had to do. Also, what exactly are they going to call him out on? "Boo hoo, Prince Ryouma doesn't give a fuck about Princess Elise?" Well, I don't see why he would. Since, from his POV, Nohr is the reason why his mother and several civilians in the capital are dead. And Kamui chose the nation that had essentially taken everything from him as well. Nope, as of now there is no reason for him to care about Nohr. Like I said, it's not like they'll return the favor.

It's a poor way of wording, period.

Consistency is a thing. If people are going to call out on side on this one thing, they better make it clear that you do so for the other side otherwise they're going to look like a silly hypocrite. Even if Nohr is portrayed as the "evil side", making it clear that you're not condoning either side is better than just not acknowledging it at all.

Well, you came in here all confrontational, calling the discussion "this shit", so I guess forgive me if I thought I said something offensive?

Uh, what is this second part even addressing? In the quoted part, I said it's the pragmatic choice that he made, but that doesn't mean that the characters can't call him out on it. They have investments too that aren't necessarily align with what he's thinking either, especially Corrin, who thought appealing to him for mercy would make a difference. So they should at least say something, regardless. And no, that doesn't mean I think Ryoma should have done anything different.

If you say so. It's totally how Hoshido would have seen it, though.

Um, that's the thing. Birthright 7 does call it out. Sakura laments them attacking it because it's a hospital right there in the text. Silas was hesitant and holding back and the implications are obvious. Hell, it doesn't even take much for Corrin to convince him to turn on Garon. This is much more than what we got in Conquest 12, if you ask me.

[joshcja]

Okay, so... so... Um, so...

...Unless I am mistaken...

Ryoma follows Bushido?

It is literally the name of his personal skill

That said he breaks the shit out of it in every possible way by...

Openly hiring Ninja's

Being royalty and a samurai at the same fucking time????

Arming peasants

Marrying below his station

Not using a bow

Not using a horse

Using an axe

Using a naginata

Using the long sword to commit sepuku

Not beheading commoners who refer to him in personal terms

Absolutely every action in conquest and birthright sans "FIGHT ME"

Edit: I forgot my favorites, not beheading Hinoka, and not flying enough kites (this is a real thing)

So he just follows Lobshido, the way of the lobster.

Edited April 7, 2016 by joshcja

[Truthblade]

It is literally the name of his personal skill

Oh yeah, i forgot about that.

[saisymbolic]

It is literally the name of his personal skill

Oh yeah, i forgot about that.

Me too. LOL.

[Sunwoo]

Um, no? You grabbed my post specifically while ignoring everything in between. What am I supposed to think when you do that? Whereas, in your scenario, you're talking about posts long buried from before I even started playing the game.

That I literally logged on after working and got taken to the most recent page and didn't notice there were two pages of the same shit until after I posted?

Well, you came in here all confrontational, calling the discussion "this shit", so I guess forgive me if I thought I said something offensive?

Dude, ever heard the saying "not this shit again"? If anything, I'm exasperated. Not mad. Regardless, since when has telling someone to calm down EVER accomplished anything?

Uh, what is this second part even addressing? In the quoted part, I said it's the pragmatic choice that he made, but that doesn't mean that the characters can't call him out on it. They have investments too that aren't necessarily align with what he's thinking either, especially Corrin, who thought appealing to him for mercy would make a difference. So they should at least say something, regardless. And no, that doesn't mean I think Ryoma should have done anything different.

The thing is, I don't see HOW they can even call him on it. Because he is technically not in the wrong and the only thing that they can call him out in is, like, pure emotion. Which is rarely a good reason.

Um, that's the thing. Birthright 7 does call it out. Sakura laments them attacking it because it's a hospital right there in the text. Silas was hesitant and holding back and the implications are obvious. Hell, it doesn't even take much for Corrin to convince him to turn on Garon. This is much more than what we got in Conquest 12, if you ask me.

I am talking about the fanbase, not the game itself.

[saisymbolic]

It is literally the name of his personal skill

That said he breaks the shit out of it in every possible way by...

Openly hiring Ninja's

Being royalty and a samurai at the same fucking time????

Arming peasants

Marrying below his station

Not beheading commoners who refer to him in personal terms

Absolutely every action in conquest and birthright sans "FIGHT ME" and ch25 where he breaks out a set of crab crackers.

So he just follows Lobshido, the way of the lobster.

At least he follows filial piety...by dressing as Lord Lobsternaga Dad?

EDIT: LOL.

Edited April 7, 2016 by SaiSymbolic

[RedRob]

Correct

Including its instructions of seppuku.

which apparently in Hoshido involves stabbing one's self in the balls, not their stomach.

https://youtu.be/bmRoIEvAUQc?t=5s

Edited April 7, 2016 by RedRob

[saisymbolic]

which apparently in Hoshido involves stabbing one's self in the balls, not their stomach.

https://youtu.be/bmRoIEvAUQc?t=5s

"Would you like a plate of lightning-fried lobster testicles coated with bitter, salty tears for your main course, good sir?"

Edited April 7, 2016 by SaiSymbolic

[solrocknroll]

I also think it's hilarious how the fanbase blatantly favors Nohr. It's pretty much because Hoshido is "too pure" or "not complex enough" even though Hoshido does many honorable things in the story. The small stuff is all that's remembered. Even as an honorable person, what reason does Ryoma have to let Nohr walk all over him? The place is abandoned, and IIRC it isn't even a hospital but actually an apothecary.

[Thor Odinson]

I didn't want to get into any more story discussions but I think some of you have a very misguided ideas of what Bushido is--I can't claim I'm an expert, but it's not the same as western chivalry, that's for certain. Don't conflate the two.

I'm gonna assign myself some reading over the weekend for research on actual bushido.

[joshcja]

At least he follows filial piety...by dressing as Lord Lobsternaga Dad?

EDIT: LOL.

Xander on the other hand, is word perfect on chivalry outside of marrying commoners, in both routes.

It's a bit of an assholish code (Kinda like bushido), so yeah IS confirmed westaboo's, and BR confirmed weeb as fuck marketing.

Edit: yeah the 2 value systems vary greatly, they have like... one thing in common, they were made to justify killing a lot of people because the lord said so but feel really good about it.

Fun fact samurai were normally commoners or hedge lords good with a sword, bow, lance (note, not a naginata), and horse. The whole artsy part of bushido was added so they didn't open their mouths in court and vomit hick all over the gentry while the honor section is just "hey don't scandalize your lord into killing himself".

Chivalry on the other hand was based on a mix of noblesse oblige and practical peasent killing/rape with a dash of "shutup and do what I tell you", the reading and studying part was added because... the knights were normaly the sons of hedge lords (though it was less scandolous tosee high nobility than in japan where if your son became a samurai you literately killed yourself in shame if you held a high office) and again, commoners whowere really damn good at killing in the army. So knightly courtesy and thinking got tacked on to keep them from vomiting hick all over the lords and ladies.

They vary pretty massively in specifics (lol ryoma doesn't fly enough kites) but the overall function is pretty much the same.

Edited April 7, 2016 by joshcja

[Truthblade]

which apparently in Hoshido involves stabbing one's self in the balls, not their stomach.

https://youtu.be/bmRoIEvAUQc?t=5s

"Would like a plate of lightning-fried lobster testicles coated with bitter, salty tears for your main course, good sir?"

Thanks for that image guys. :p

Edited April 7, 2016 by Blade_of_Light

[RedRob]

I didn't want to get into any more story discussions but I think some of you have a very misguided ideas of what Bushido is--I can't claim I'm an expert, but it's not the same as western chivalry, that's for certain. Don't conflate the two.

I'm gonna assign myself some reading over the weekend for research on actual bushido.

I think some of us are just joking, and not claiming anything, except for joshcja. He seemed serious about it.

[saisymbolic]

Thanks for that image guys. :p

You're welcome.

I think some of us are just joking, and not claiming anything, except for joshcja. He seemed serious about it.

No, I wasn't serious.

But I would like someone to do an analysis regarding Bushido and traits within Ryoma's personality and his life that reflect that moral code.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

That I literally logged on after working and got taken to the most recent page and didn't notice there were two pages of the same shit until after I posted?

Okay, that's fair enough.

Dude, ever heard the saying "not this shit again"? If anything, I'm exasperated. Not mad. Regardless, since when has telling someone to calm down EVER accomplished anything?

Yes, and the only context I've only heard the saying in is a confrontation or dismissive context. Between this and the above, I was a bit on edge that things were about to escalate. Sorry about that. And as for telling people to calm down, I've seen "settle down"/"calm down" successfully used to diffuse an argument rather often where I've been. I seriously didn't mean it in any kind of provocative way.

The thing is, I don't see HOW they can even call him on it. Because he is technically not in the wrong and the only thing that they can call him out in is, like, pure emotion. Which is rarely a good reason.

Well, he could still look heartless from their point of view. Like, Corrin already tried to appeal to his sense of humanity and his response was pretty cold and opportunistic. It'd be a partially emotional response, yes, but I feel it'd have been appropriate.

I am talking about the fanbase, not the game itself.

Ah, never mind, then.

[joshcja]

I think some of us are just joking, and not claiming anything, except for joshcja. He seemed serious about it.

I like history ok x.x

Edit: It's entirely possible that I'm blurring bushido and the noble codes and laws. Honestly they're mutually inclusive. Figure I should explain the blur.

A short history of bushido: Lords got tired of samurai, men armed with a status symbol used to kill unarmed unarmored peasants on a daily basis that had 0 actual combat use (they fought mounted with spears, bows, and eventual guns in actual wars), going around killing peasants willy nilly, throwing women and children to wild dogs after a good olde castle sacking and making bets on who would scream the loudest, talking like hicks, impaling people in public, the fucking kite bets (Kites have a long and bloody history), the drunkenness, and the constant, fucking, rape. So they went to see some monks and gave them a copy of the noble laws and had them write a code of conduct that at no point forbade murder, rape, gambling, or pillaging, (soilders prerogative) but would at least gloss it over and get those fucking hicks to talk like real people and dress right. So the monks wrote it at sword point (they were unarmored and unarmed) and were very, very careful to never contradict the noble code at any point, and got pretty enthusiastic about telling the samurai to do exactly what their lord said just to be sure. That said they really were not happy about this whole setup so they lovingly detailed the most painful form of ritual suicide they could imagine and added even more etiquette lessons to that, just so the fuckers who didthis to them would have to practice it every day. The monks did such a standup job the lords let them live (they really liked the bloody suicide), and we got a lot of good 90's movies, and the samurai would at least bring flowers to their rape victims, formalized their murder spree's in discreet locations approved by the lord, and made sure to never carry more loot than they could stash at a moments notice.

And that's how bushido was made.

All things considered bushido itself is a pretty upright code by feudal standards.

(What you though standards of a address are so fixed overseas because they're super nice? No that's holdover from japans warp speed shift out of feudal culture where that shit was life or death)

Edited April 7, 2016 by joshcja