In which blah the Prussian blind reacts to FE Fates: Conquest

[Book Bro]

I guess what I meant is that Fates constantly struggles between trying to be a serious story about war, and a Saturday morning cartoon where the chosen yet relatable hero has an epic adventure to beat the evil dudes. It wasn't a good mix. I appreciate the dark elements and the concept, but the overall execution feels like they were afraid to go too far in that direction. The endings really show this. They're much too simple and happy considering the shit that goes down in both routes.

[Azure Sen]

I guess what I meant is that Fates constantly struggles between trying to be a serious story about war, and a Saturday morning cartoon where the chosen yet relatable hero has an epic adventure to beat the evil dudes. It wasn't a good mix. I appreciate the dark elements and the concept, but the overall execution feels like they were afraid to go too far in that direction. The endings really show this. They're much too simple and happy considering the shit that goes down in both routes.

Ah, okay. Yeah, I can understand that. I don't necessarily think that's the fault of Kibayashi, though. I mean, I think Fates would have definitely benefited from having the script be completely serious all the way through, but even if Kibayashi's original script had been like that (which I honestly think it was), the game's tone was always going to be inconsistent because of all the extra stuff IntSys forced in for the sake of sales.

[Time the Crestfallen]

She's a foil to herself?

But yeah, I pretty much agree on everything else you said.

OTL

Isn't that their own damn fault though?

I believe it's a case of too many chefs spoiling the broth. You have Kibayashi who was busy when writing way more than he was asked to and then the writers of Intelligent Systems having to split up into teams that seemed to have communicated far too little between themselves. Couple that with some likely executive meddling and you've got a mess that I think very few people would've handled well. Regardless, I ultimately believe Intelligent Systems are to blame, since they relied a busy man and chose not to revise his first draft.

It is their fault, but it's their fault for being shit at quality control rather than shit at writing. I reckon they should do the writing themselves rather than higher a different guy (who writes for an entirely different medium mind you. What works on a TV show isn't necessarily going to work for a video game) to do it. I mean shit, if IntSys wrote Genealogy of the Holy War, they can still make a comeback in my eyes.

[Sunwoo]

I guess what I meant is that Fates constantly struggles between trying to be a serious story about war, and a Saturday morning cartoon where the chosen yet relatable hero has an epic adventure to beat the evil dudes. It wasn't a good mix. I appreciate the dark elements and the concept, but the overall execution feels like they were afraid to go too far in that direction. The endings really show this. They're much too simple and happy considering the shit that goes down in both routes.

Is Kamui even all that relatable, though? Because I sure as hell don't find them relatable at all.

[saisymbolic]

Is Kamui even all that relatable, though? Because I sure as hell don't find them relatable at all.

Relatable in not wanting to kill innocents or shed unnecessary blood, I guess? But Corrinmui fails at that so it doesn't matter.

Edited April 28, 2016 by SaiSymbolic

[Book Bro]

Is Kamui even all that relatable, though? Because I sure as hell don't find them relatable at all.

Well, they made him an avatar, so I think he's supposed to be. Why else would Conquest go so out of its way to try to paint his invasion of an innocent nation as about him suffering.

[Sunwoo]

Well, they made him an avatar, so I think he's supposed to be. Why else would Conquest go so out of its way to try to paint his invasion of an innocent nation as about him suffering.

So, they think the players are self-centered overly important idiotic dumbasses. Thanks, IS.

[RedRob]

So, they think the players are self-centered overly important idiotic dumbasses. Thanks, IS.

Eh, sounds like a good portion of interner-users and humanity in general. Seems like a good business decision on IS's part when you look at it that way.

On a side note, thinking about Corrin's role and effect on the plot, specifically how much it's centered around him, I came up with the idea of the siblings being the main characters instead, and that at the beginning of the game, you would chose one as your lord, and play through one unified story, only, certain parts could only be seen by playing as a certain character. This would theoretically still keep the story about them, and not the war, but their own individual experiences together would form a larger narrative focusing on the war, namely they would be used to explore certain sides and views of the war, like the duty of ruler to his people during a war,(Xander) the traumas one experiences and bias formed from those during a war(Takumi), and how far one will go to protect loved ones during a war.(Camila)

[Thane]

Well, they made him an avatar, so I think he's supposed to be. Why else would Conquest go so out of its way to try to paint his invasion of an innocent nation as about him suffering.

There's a big difference between supposed to be relatable and actually being someone you can see a bit of yourself in. Even with Corrin's special snowflake powers, weapons, moves and past, they're essentially what I've heard anime harem protagonists are like: thoroughly bland yet people worship the ground they walk on. That's pretty damn far removed from reality.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Thane

[eclipse]

There's a big difference between supposed to be relatable and actually being someone you can see a bit of yourself in. Even with Corrin's special snowflake powers, weapons, moves and past, they're essentially what I've heard anime harem protagonists are like: thoroughly bland yet people worship the ground they walk on. That's pretty damn far removed from reality.

But how many people would love to be treated like that? I'd be totally freaked out, and maybe you would too, but what about everyone else?

[blah the Prussian]

Terribly sorry for the wait, ladies and gentlemen. My internet was being an asshole yesterday. In any case, Chapter 26!

-Garon spends some time gloating about how he has conquered the world. How long have these two Kingdoms existed side by side in apparent peace? Geopolitical realities dictate that they would be fighting the shit out of each other. It would make more sense if both Empires had just finished conquering their halves of the Chasm and were only now coming into contact, sort of like Rome and Carthage. This is the only FE game in the series, I think, where they don't give you some idea of the geopolitics leading up to the events of the game, and I really dislike that.

-If Corrin is going to betray Garon anyway, why can't he just throw the door open and then show his siblings Garon's true form? It seems to me that they'd be relatively open to the idea of fighting Garon once they see his true form, so what gives?

-Why is Garon sitting on this throne anyway? Really, lets analyze this, because this plot point really bothers me. So, lets tear into this. Option 1: Garon, for whatever reason, does not know that the throne will reveal his true form. Why doesn't he know this? It seems to me that it would be fairly common knowledge, especially to the King of Nohr. Option 2: Garon doesn't know that he is a demon. I have no idea why this would be the case, but I wouldn't put it past the writers to just forget that Garon was supposed to know this shit. Option 3: Garon, for some UNGODLY reason, actually wants the world to know that he's a demon. I can't imagine why this might be the case.

-Wow. Just wow. Iago decided it would be a good idea to outright assault Corrin in front of his siblings, who have been proven to be perfectly willing to protect him with their lives before. Iago really needs to calm his tits and wait.

-So the Nohrians caught Hinoka and they only confront Corrin about it now? How long did it take Hinoka to escape? The Nohrians should have found out about it just as Corrin was beginning to fight Ryoma.

-So why does the Nohrian army side with Iago here? Has he ever done anything at all that would make him superior to the Royal Family? Wouldn't it be better if Iago was like "hey guys back me up" and the Nohrian army was like "no, fuck you"? Then Iago would be like "Well shit" and it would be a last stand for Iago, Hans, and Garon.

-If the Stoneborn attack Nohrian soldiers too, as Hinoka said, why don't they do that here? Why would the Nohrians even risk bringing them into the Palace?

-Iago is a moron. He never once hit a unit on my front lines with enfeeble, or used his staffs in any way that would actually have been a threat, rather than an annoyance.

-Also, the only way you can find out that all of Iago's staves have 10 range is by clicking his skill; the information is hidden. That is bad game design.

-The funny thing here is that when Iago is begging for his life, and says that he was just following orders, like Corrin and co, he's absolutely right. Sure, he might have been more happy about following those orders, but in terms of consequences there is functionally no difference between Iago and Corrin. This could have been another interesting moment, as Iago's Not So Different forces Corrin to reassess his actions, but instead the royals are just like "LOL, no, Iago, we're not like you" and then kill him in cold blood (which, by the way, was a big fucking deal that the Hoshidans were killed in cold blood; apparently being evil means you suddenly don't have the right to a fair trial) when I'm saying "Yes you fucking are like him, you hypocrites!" This game. This fucking game.

-Corrin and Azura do what they should have done as soon as they got that mirror thingy and show their siblings. I still want to know why they didn't do that as soon as they had proof (lets go over that: it was already a Diabolos ex Machina that the thing broke, but why couldn't Azura get another one? How did she get this one?). Goddamn this plot.

-People have given Xander a bunch of flak for threatening to kill Corrin if Garon is fine, but I really can't see why. Within the context of the rest of his actions, this makes sense. Its easy to see this as a coup attempt, and, I mean, come on, if someone came up to me and was like "Holy shit blah, I just found out Elizabeth II is a slime monster!" I would be like "bruh, the fuck are the drugs you're on?" As strange as it sounds, I have no problem with Xander's actions in this case.

-That being the case, why did Corrin at any point risk his siblings turning against him when he could have shown them monster Garon? That would have been completely risk free.

Well, the game is just about over. Its been quite the ride through euphoric gameplay and shitty writing, but the end is in sight. Lets see if the writers succeed in one last attempt to piss me off!

[Thane]

But how many people would love to be treated like that? I'd be totally freaked out, and maybe you would too, but what about everyone else?

Well, obviously there's a market for it or we wouldn't be here discussing it. However, that argument can be applied for almost everything, and it doesn't make Corrin any more relatable.

Well, the game is just about over. Its been quite the ride through euphoric gameplay and shitty writing, but the end is in sight. Lets see if the writers succeed in one last attempt to piss me off!

How do you think it ends? I've been very vocal about what I think of the ending and how it's portrayed, but I want to know how you think it'll play out, and how you would want all this to get wrapped up.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Thane

[Captain Karnage]

now that you mention it,

"HOW THE HELL DID THEY GET THOSE STONEBORNE IN THERE?"

that's what I'm more upset about not knowing

[Azure Sen]

There's a big difference between supposed to be relatable and actually being someone you can see a bit of yourself in. Even with Corrin's special snowflake powers, weapons, moves and past, they're essentially what I've heard anime harem protagonists are like: thoroughly bland yet people worship the ground they walk on. That's pretty damn far removed from reality.

The sad part is, Corrin actually has personality compared to your average harem anime protagonist. At least Corrin actually does things and interacts with people; your average harem protagonist attracts women simply by existing, even if he's a spineless coward, dithering idiot or raging asshole with no redeeming qualities.

-If Corrin is going to betray Garon anyway, why can't he just throw the door open and then show his siblings Garon's true form? It seems to me that they'd be relatively open to the idea of fighting Garon once they see his true form, so what gives?

From a technical perspective, its an opportunity to tie up loose ends plus finally getting the satisfaction of giving Iago and Hans the beatings that have been long overdue. From a in-story perspective...well, there is no real in-narrative justification, because Conquest's writing.

-If the Stoneborn attack Nohrian soldiers too, as Hinoka said, why don't they do that here? Why would the Nohrians even risk bringing them into the Palace?

Presumably, the Stoneborn that were attacking the Nohrian soldiers weren't under the command of anyone; Stoneborn, like Faceless, can be controlled by sufficiently powerful Dark Mages (i.e. Iago).

-The funny thing here is that when Iago is begging for his life, and says that he was just following orders, like Corrin and co, he's absolutely right. Sure, he might have been more happy about following those orders, but in terms of consequences there is functionally no difference between Iago and Corrin. This could have been another interesting moment, as Iago's Not So Different forces Corrin to reassess his actions, but instead the royals are just like "LOL, no, Iago, we're not like you" and then kill him in cold blood (which, by the way, was a big fucking deal that the Hoshidans were killed in cold blood; apparently being evil means you suddenly don't have the right to a fair trial) when I'm saying "Yes you fucking are like him, you hypocrites!" This game. This fucking game.

I'm pretty sure the implication is that Iago claiming that he was just following orders is BS and that he's just using it in a desperate attempt to save his own skin. It makes more sense if you've played Birthright, where he pulls similarly flimsy excuses in an attempt to not be killed. I'm also pretty sure that Nohr has nothing remotely similar to a court system and even if Iago was spared Xander would have just had him executed once he took the throne.

Edited April 28, 2016 by AzureSen

[eclipse]

-Also, the only way you can find out that all of Iago's staves have 10 range is by clicking his skill; the information is hidden. That is bad game design.

You can click on him, and it'll show all those lovely green squares that say "hit me with a staff kthx".

Well, obviously there's a market for it or we wouldn't be here discussing it. However, that argument can be applied for almost everything, and it doesn't make Corrin any more relatable.

I don't think the goal was relatable as in "hey I went through that too". I think the goal was "I wish people adored me like Corrin". Sort of like a power trip by proxy. It's arguably not a good approach if you're looking for realism, but this really depends on the market you want to attract.

[Thane]

I don't think the goal was relatable as in "hey I went through that too". I think the goal was "I wish people adored me like Corrin". Sort of like a power trip by proxy. It's arguably not a good approach if you're looking for realism, but this really depends on the market you want to attract.

On that we can definitely agree. I think power fantasies - or essentially any kind of fantasy really - are fine; it's essentally what fiction is all about. However, I just think they took Corrin too far, and the game as a whole would've improved considerably if Intelligent Systems didn't treat the player like a porcelain doll.

[blah the Prussian]

I'm pretty sure the implication is that Iago claiming that he was just following orders is BS and that he's just using it in a desperate attempt to save his own skin. It makes more sense if you've played Birthright, where he pulls similarly flimsy excuses in an attempt to not be killed. I'm also pretty sure that Nohr has nothing remotely similar to a court system and even if Iago was spared Xander would have just had him executed once he took the throne.

I was more saying that the game makes a big deal that killing POWs is wrong but then they treat killing Iago, a POW, as a big fuck yeah moment.

How do you think it ends? I've been very vocal about what I think of the ending and how it's portrayed, but I want to know how you think it'll play out, and how you would want all this to get wrapped up.

How I think it will end? Garon gets defeated, they all live happily ever after, Takumi Trump probably comes into play somehow, maybe as a boss just before the endgame. How I want it to end? At this point the story has sort of been fucked up beyond repair, but there is, in my eyes, one way to fix it that there is no way the writers wrote.

Takumi, who has escaped, has been fully possessed by the whatever, but he doesn't know it. He sees the Invaders, and he decides it is the only way to save Hoshido. Meanwhile, Corrin and co. beat slime Garon, but Takumi attacks with his demon thingies. After Takumi has been incapacitated, Corrin prepares to land the finishing blow, but notices the same shadowy stuff that was on Takumi on him. The ghosts of Garon and Sumeragi come to him, and tell him that he is experiencing essentially the same thing that happened to Takumi and Garon. Corrin, after some self reflection, realizes that, in actual fact, he enjoyed conquering Hoshido, and realizes it to be the influence of the possessing thing. Corrin is then returned to Hoshido, and sees the exorcised Takumi defenseless, and refuses to kill him. Enraged, whatever was possessing Takumi jumps out of Corrin, too, and it is revealed that it was playing both sides, tempting Corrin to do evil with the promise of ending the conflict and tempting Takumi with the promise of saving his country, and then finally tempting Garon with the promise of world conquest. With this revealed, the party gets ready for one final battle, knowing that it cannot give in. After that happens, King Xander grants Hoshido full independence, and vows to make up for Garon's crimes. Thats the only way I can see to fix the story, as we aren't supposed to like Corrin.

[Thane]

as we aren't supposed to like Corrin.

Oh my sweet summer child...

[blah the Prussian]

You can click on him, and it'll show all those lovely green squares that say "hit me with a staff kthx".

Yeah, but that only applies to Freeze, not Enfeeble, which is much more dangerous.

Oh my sweet summer child...

That bad, huh? To be clear, I know that in the game we're probably supposed to like Corrin. I just think making him in denial is the only way to save his character.

[Time the Crestfallen]

That bad, huh? To be clear, I know that in the game we're probably supposed to like Corrin. I just think making him in denial is the only way to save his character.

Corrin by themself is, in my opinion, one of the best conceptual lord in the franchise (second only to my beloved Ephraim). The problem is that the game refuses to treat them as anything other than a porcelain doll, apparently thinking that if the game punishes them for a choice they make that they're going to offend the player. Corrin has plenty of realistic flaws and traits given their backstory, but any opportunity for them to grow is nipped in the bud. The wangsting about having to fight Hoshido is a good example; by itself, there's nothing wrong with that since picking Nohr is (subjectively) the selfish and morally wrong thing to do, but are they ever given a proper opportunity to come to terms with it? Or actually have their regrets explored in any meaningful way? No, because that would mean the player is wrong and the player can never be wrong.

[eclipse]

Yeah, but that only applies to Freeze, not Enfeeble, which is much more dangerous.

. . .you've had units hit with Enfeeble outside of the green staff range that Iago has? Because I've never EVER had this happen to me.

It's possible that you wandered into someone else's range instead. Especially if you tangled with the Sorcerers first.

[blah the Prussian]

. . .you've had units hit with Enfeeble outside of the green staff range that Iago has? Because I've never EVER had this happen to me.

It's possible that you wandered into someone else's range instead. Especially if you tangled with the Sorcerers first.

Since he had multiple staves I thought that the range was for all staves, not just for enfeeble.

Corrin by themself is, in my opinion, one of the best conceptual lord in the franchise (second only to my beloved Ephraim). The problem is that the game refuses to treat them as anything other than a porcelain doll, apparently thinking that if the game punishes them for a choice they make that they're going to offend the player. Corrin has plenty of realistic flaws and traits given their backstory, but any opportunity for them to grow is nipped in the bud. The wangsting about having to fight Hoshido is a good example; by itself, there's nothing wrong with that since picking Nohr is (subjectively) the selfish and morally wrong thing to do, but are they ever given a proper opportunity to come to terms with it? Or actually have their regrets explored in any meaningful way? No, because that would mean the player is wrong and the player can never be wrong.

Conceptual goodness only gets you so far when everything else you do sucks. I wasn't talking about conceptual goodness. Also just because I don't like a character doesn't mean I think they're a bad character. I despise Johann Liebert, but he's still the best villain in anime history.

[eclipse]

Since he had multiple staves I thought that the range was for all staves, not just for enfeeble.

I've never been hit by something outside of his displayed staff range, unless I screwed up and put someone near the Maids.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Conceptual goodness only gets you so far when everything else you do sucks. I wasn't talking about conceptual goodness. Also just because I don't like a character doesn't mean I think they're a bad character. I despise Johann Liebert, but he's still the best villain in anime history.

Perhaps, but when a lot of the problems that people have with Corrin are simply by association with problems to another character, it feels a little disingenuous to say that Corrin is a terrible protagonist. Corrin thinking that everything he does is for the greater good doesn't suck, it shows that he has no understanding of the world and is possibly deluding themselves. I find that to be a very interesting trait of Corrin, it's Hoshidan siblings actually believing his hype rather than calling him out for his actions that sucks. Maybe it's just me, but taking everything into account, I actually find Corrin's attitude to be one of the more believable parts of Conquest's story. The problem isn't in Corrin's attitude, it's the way other characters (especially the Hoshidan siblings) react to that attitude.

[Thane]

Perhaps, but when a lot of the problems that people have with Corrin are simply by association with problems to another character, it feels a little disingenuous to say that Corrin is a terrible protagonist. Corrin thinking that everything he does is for the greater good doesn't suck, it shows that he has no understanding of the world and is possibly deluding themselves. I find that to be a very interesting trait of Corrin, it's Hoshidan siblings actually believing his hype rather than calling him out for his actions that sucks. Maybe it's just me, but taking everything into account, I actually find Corrin's attitude to be one of the more believable parts of Conquest's story. The problem isn't in Corrin's attitude, it's the way other characters (especially the Hoshidan siblings) react to that attitude.

I get where you're coming from, but the problem is that Corrin doesn't really grow as a character; other naïve characters in the series have been forced to accept the consequences of their actions - didn't Elincia get a proper kick in the butt and grow a spine sometime in the Tellius series for being so naïve? Compare that to Fates where the characters just excuse Corrin's attitude all the time and try to keep them from actually learning. In that way, we're stuck with a typical wide-eyed youth that's very common in these types of stories, and we don't get to see the character grow up.

I'd write more and better (hopefully!) but my class just started.