In which blah the Prussian blind reacts to FE Fates: Conquest

[blah the Prussian]

I've never been hit by something outside of his displayed staff range, unless I screwed up and put someone near the Maids.

No, but I didn't realize that the range also applied to Enfeeble.

Perhaps, but when a lot of the problems that people have with Corrin are simply by association with problems to another character, it feels a little disingenuous to say that Corrin is a terrible protagonist. Corrin thinking that everything he does is for the greater good doesn't suck, it shows that he has no understanding of the world and is possibly deluding themselves. I find that to be a very interesting trait of Corrin, it's Hoshidan siblings actually believing his hype rather than calling him out for his actions that sucks. Maybe it's just me, but taking everything into account, I actually find Corrin's attitude to be one of the more believable parts of Conquest's story. The problem isn't in Corrin's attitude, it's the way other characters (especially the Hoshidan siblings) react to that attitude.

But the game doesn't want you to think that he is deluding himself, the game wants you to think he's doing the right thing, that his actions make sense. If the STORY calls him out for his actions that could be very interesting, but it doesn't. We're supposed to not consider him a tragic figure, but to consider him right.

[Time the Crestfallen]

I get where you're coming from, but the problem is that Corrin doesn't really grow as a character; other naïve characters in the series have been forced to accept the consequences of their actions - didn't Elincia get a proper kick in the butt and grow a spine sometime in the Tellius series for being so naïve? Compare that to Fates where the characters just excuse Corrin's attitude all the time and try to keep them from actually learning. In that way, we're stuck with a typical wide-eyed youth that's very common in these types of stories, and we don't get to see the character grow up.

I'd write more and better (hopefully!) but my class just started.

That's exactly my point though; Corrin is never given a moment to grow in the story because the other characters keep shutting them down. Hell, there's even a moment in Revelation where

[spoiler=Don't read blah, unless you want to be spoiled]

Corrin confesses that they were in the wrong about Anthony and how they shouldn't have been such a naive dipshit, but then the siblings (the same siblings who spent several chapters criticising the decision to trust Anthony mind you) immediately tell them that it was okay and how they'll always babysit him more or less

Yes, Corrin's role in the story is bad. But my point is that a lot of the problems people criticise them for are problems that mostly come about as the result of actions by other characters.

But the game doesn't want you to think that he is deluding himself, the game wants you to think he's doing the right thing, that his actions make sense. If the STORY calls him out for his actions that could be very interesting, but it doesn't. We're supposed to not consider him a tragic figure, but to consider him right.

Exactly. That's my point. Corrin and his actions by themselves are perfectly fine, it's the way the other characters treat them (and by extension the story) that makes them so unbearable.

[blah the Prussian]

Eh, I guess I'm drawing a distinction between the characters and the story and you aren't. Fair enough.

[Water Mage]

Corrin by themself is, in my opinion, one of the best conceptual lord in the franchise (second only to my beloved Ephraim). The problem is that the game refuses to treat them as anything other than a porcelain doll, apparently thinking that if the game punishes them for a choice they make that they're going to offend the player. Corrin has plenty of realistic flaws and traits given their backstory, but any opportunity for them to grow is nipped in the bud. The wangsting about having to fight Hoshido is a good example; by itself, there's nothing wrong with that since picking Nohr is (subjectively) the selfish and morally wrong thing to do, but are they ever given a proper opportunity to come to terms with it? Or actually have their regrets explored in any meaningful way? No, because that would mean the player is wrong and the player can never be wrong.

That's what I think too.

To me, Corrin isn't a bad character at all, he has a lot of potential.

My real problem with the story is how the world treats Corrin.

Like you said, they treat Corrin like a porcelain doll, who is to fragile for the world, the Nohr sibilings in particular coddle Corrin way too much, especially when compared to the Hoshido sibilings, that while they are also overprotective of Corrin, they don't coddle him as much as the Nohr sibilings, and even if they did, the Hoshido sibilings have a very good justificatiom to be overprotective of Corrin, the Nohr sibilings don't.

Honestly, the Nohr sibilings, other than Leo, treats Corrin more like a pet, rather than a sibiling.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Eh, I guess I'm drawing a distinction between the characters and the story and you aren't. Fair enough.

I will concede that you have a point, it's just that I find that other characters (particularly Camilla, Hinoka, Xander and Ryoma) more to blame for the problems rather than Corrin themself.

[blah the Prussian]

I will concede that you have a point, it's just that I find that other characters (particularly Camilla, Hinoka, Xander and Ryoma) more to blame for the problems rather than Corrin themself.

Then we're mostly in agreement.

[NekoKnight]

That's exactly my point though; Corrin is never given a moment to grow in the story because the other characters keep shutting them down. Hell, there's even a moment in Revelation where

[spoiler=Don't read blah, unless you want to be spoiled]

Corrin confesses that they were in the wrong about Anthony and how they shouldn't have been such a naive dipshit, but then the siblings (the same siblings who spent several chapters criticising the decision to trust Anthony mind you) immediately tell them that it was okay and how they'll always babysit him more or less

Yes, Corrin's role in the story is bad. But my point is that a lot of the problems people criticise them for are problems that mostly come about as the result of actions by other characters.

Exactly. That's my point. Corrin and his actions by themselves are perfectly fine, it's the way the other characters treat them (and by extension the story) that makes them so unbearable.

You might be right about the siblings preventing Kamui from facing the real consequences of his actions, but if anything Revelation highlighted how devoted Kamui was to having a irresponsible character. There is a scene when

Gunter betrays you and basically says "I hate you and your stupid shonen action hero personality! Believing in everyone is dumb!" and Kamui responds "Yeah, well, I'm just going to keep doing that."

Even when called out for his actions, Kamui responds that there is nothing wrong with the way he does things.

Kamui doesn't need other characters to excuse him for his flaws because nothing in the narrative implies he's flawed. You say that he can't grow because people don't call him out on his bullshit, but he should have the strength of character to understand his own bullshit without being told! Kamui might feel bad about what he's doing but there is not a single line to suggest he made a mistake. And considering just how enormous of a mistake he makes in Conquest (ie almost the entire route), that's a serious mark against his character.

Edited April 28, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Time the Crestfallen]

You might be right about the siblings preventing Kamui from facing the real consequences of his actions, but if anything Revelations highlighted how devoted Kamui was to having a irresponsible character. There is a scene when a certain character betrays you and basically says "I hate you and your stupid shonen action hero personality! Believing in everyone is dumb!" and Kamui responds "Yeah, well, I'm just going to keep doing that." Even when called out for his actions, Kamui responds that there is nothing wrong with the way he does things.

Kamui doesn't need other characters to excuse him for his flaws because nothing in the narrative implies he's flawed. You say that he can't grow because people don't call him out on his bullshit, but he should have the strength of character to understand his own bullshit without being told! Kamui might feel bad about what he's doing but there is not a single line to suggest he made a mistake. And consider just how enormous of a mistake he makes in Conquest (ie almost the entire route), that's a serious mark against his character.

Feel free to call me an idiot, but I'm honestly not sure who calls him out. Is it Gunter? Because I doubt the words of a man possessed by an insane, omnicidal Dragon-God would be considered valid criticism.

Besides, I also pointed out that in addition to the other characters coddling him, that they're never really given an opportunity to grow. You say that nothing ever suggests that they made a mistake, but that's incorrect. In the supports with Azura and throughout the story (as I've been made very aware of over the last few months), Kamui frequently wonders if they made the right choice in siding with Nohr. Only the supports with Azura have any sort of closure to them (and since supports are optional, they don't mean shit to the main story).

During the actual chapters, when is Kamui ever able to talk to another person about how they feel? when are they ever given an opportunity to develop beyond that attitude and either suck it up or reassure themselves that choosing Nohr was the right choice other than the ending cutscenes? Most of the time (from what I understood anyway), they wonder if they did the right thing and that's kind of it until the next time they have to angst.

On another note, when is Kamui ever punished for the Shonen attitude? Sure, some characters (all of whom are explicitly villainous 9 times out of 10, which certainly doesn't help things), but when Kamu's attitude actually works for them, why should they bother to change? It's one thing for Kamui to honestly believe that Hinoka and Sakura will forgive him for all the destruction he brought to Hoshido, but it's another thing entirely for them to actually do it. Characters in fiction don't just magically overcome their flaws because 'hey, why not'. They do it because the flaw actually inconveniences them in some way. Corrin was raised in the Nohrian equivalent of sunshine, bunnies and rainbows and is never punished when they take that attitude to the real world because everyone else just kind of goes along with it, so why should they change when their viewpoint is constantly validated?

Edited April 28, 2016 by Phillius

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

When you said "terribly sory for the wait" somehow i misread it as "terrible story for the wait"

One more to go! kind hope you did another pt on other path or something since this topic is a fun read

Edited April 28, 2016 by JSND

[blah the Prussian]

When you said "terribly sory for the wait" somehow i misread it as "terrible story for the wait"

One more to go! kind hope you did another pt on other path or something since this topic is a fun read

Sadly I probably wont for Birthright, but I might do one for Revelation. I want to take a break from playing FE, though.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

lol i was somewhat more interested on BR since everyone seems to think its like very straightforward. Rev had so many complaints around

[blah the Prussian]

lol i was somewhat more interested on BR since everyone seems to think its like very straightforward. Rev had so many complaints around

If I were to do BR it would be much more in the Cinemasins style. This is sort of in the Cinemasins style, but the story is bad enough that I generally don't have to come up with stupid shit to nitpick about.

[NekoKnight]

Feel free to call me an idiot, but I'm honestly not sure who calls him out. Is it Gunter? Because I doubt the words of a man possessed by an insane, omnicidal Dragon-God would be considered valid criticism.

[spoiler=Revelation stuff]

I was talking about Gunter.

It's one thing to believe Gunter was being controlled, that much was obvious. But Kamui dismissed the criticism that he was making a mistake in being overly trusting. Dismissing valid criticism just because your opponent is possessed by an omnicidal dragon-god is ad hominem bro! After the incident with Anthony, he should have realized that being overly trusting was wrong of him but he goes back to being shonen Jesus when Gunter calls him out on his behavior.

This is a minor point, however. Kamui being a stereotypical shonen hero is the least of his problems.

Besides, I also pointed out that in addition to the other characters coddling him, that they're never really given an opportunity to grow. You say that nothing ever suggests that they made a mistake, but that's incorrect. In the supports with Azura and throughout the story (as I've been made very aware of over the last few months), Kamui frequently wonders if they made the right choice in siding with Nohr. Only the supports with Azura have any sort of closure to them (and since supports are optional, they don't mean shit to the main story).

I'll concede your point on Azura's support, as that was a step in the right direction for making Kamui more accountable for his actions. That said, I don't think it completely counters my point. The game is still saying that Kamui is always doing the right thing, even if he doesn't enjoy it. This would be a fair stance to take but as we've discussed in many threads, Kamui had more options than supporting the invasion than the game wants to admit.

As much pain as he endures, the game is still pretty consistent to remind the player that ultimately it's all for the best.

During the actual chapters, when is Kamui ever able to talk to another person about how they feel? when are they ever given an opportunity to develop beyond that attitude and either suck it up or reassure themselves that choosing Nohr was the right choice other than the ending cutscenes? Most of the time (from what I understood anyway), they wonder if they did the right thing and that's kind of it until the next time they have to angst.

Isn't that one of the biggest criticisms of Conquest!Kamui? That he doesn't tell anyone why he's supporting the invasion and why he thinks it's a good idea? He could and should have discussed his feelings with his siblings but he didn't. He just believed Azura's insane plan was the only option and invited a lot of angst into his life. After chapter 15 he says "the hoshidans are all going to hate me because they don't understand my reasons", side-stepping the issue that his reasons are still pretty awful.

Exactly. That's my point. Corrin and his actions by themselves are perfectly fine, it's the way the other characters treat them (and by extension the story) that makes them so unbearable.

The TL;DR version of my counterargument is that while I agree with you that other characters stunted Kamui's growth, he is guilty of many sins the plot wants you to ignore.

Edited April 28, 2016 by NekoKnight

[B.Leu]

Aha, blah wasn't savvy enough to look at Iago's stat sheet more thoroughly and is salty about it. :p

That's exactly my point though; Corrin is never given a moment to grow in the story because the other characters keep shutting them down. Hell, there's even a moment in Revelation where

[spoiler=Don't read blah, unless you want to be spoiled]

Corrin confesses that they were in the wrong about Anthony and how they shouldn't have been such a naive dipshit, but then the siblings (the same siblings who spent several chapters criticising the decision to trust Anthony mind you) immediately tell them that it was okay and how they'll always babysit him more or less

Yes, Corrin's role in the story is bad. But my point is that a lot of the problems people criticise them for are problems that mostly come about as the result of actions by other characters.

I remember that moment, I thought it was beautifully hypocritical from them.
Though thanks to your discussion, I'm able to look at the game from another perspective. Thanks.

Also, it's impressive just how much that anime warp that aesop page on TVtropes actually become more truth than humour.

[blah the Prussian]

Well, this is it. The end is finally near. Its been great being an asshole for you guys, and I hope to do it again, but now, we got a King to be significantly more of an asshole to!

-Seriously? Just, seriously? This is the design they went for with Garon. This. Oh no, please save me! That isn't scary, its comical! He looks like something out of Monsters Inc! I'm supposed to be afraid of that? Its especially jarring considering possessed Takumi Trump looks suitably intimidating.

-So what magic, exactly, was at play to hide Garon's true form? And what kind of demon is this, anyway? What are the mechanics of shapeshifting magic, and if the demon could just turn into Garon, why did he need to posses Garon?

-Yes, I am pissed as fuck that, just to rub salt in the wound this game's story has left me, they describe IN DETAIL a Garon that would have made a very interesting, nuanced, and human antagonist, all while I look at B.O.B. over here. Because, you know, all conflicts are secretly started by supernatural forces, right? Its not like humans can fuck things up on our own! Ah man, Hitler? Totally possessed by a slime monster! Stalin? Actually a puppet of a cult that worships an evil dragon! Pol Pot? He was just being used by corrupt senators who want to revive the Godess of Order! Kim Jong Il? Actually a walking corpse being used by his son to revive the Demon King! Hideki Tojo? Well, you see, he actually hates humanity, so he wants to revive dragons to kill us all, because his dad was a dick to him! Ah man, you know Enver Pasha (okay you probably don't but basically he killed a bunch of Armenians)? Huge dick, right? Well, you're not going to believe this, but it turns out that he was actually the pawn of an evil cult who wanted to manipulate him into marrying his half sister so when they fucked they'd produce the antichrist! Crazy, right! It turns out there isn't even a single conflict in history that was actually caused by humans! Thats right, we're entirely blameless in everything! Whenever we mess up its actually beyond out control! Well, that sure is good to hear! I'm so glad that the real world operates on Fire Emblem logic! Well unless we're talking about Ashnard who is the only FE villain in the series who is loyal to no one but his own ambition but then the idiocy that is Radiant Dawn came in and retroactively made Begnion's senate guilty of like all his crimes.

-So I don't know if this was bad level design or what, but the easiest thing for me to do was not deploy anyone to any of the side rooms for this level, and then just charge forwards. I was able to easily destroy the enemy piecemeal. Either the level is brilliant or stupid.

-Really? Just...really? Garon doesn't have ANY conversations with his children? Not even Corrin? Were the writers on strike or something? I mean, thats probably why the writing is so shitty ("You WILL let us turn in this abomination, you filthy Capitalist oppressor!") but still!

-Wow, for someone built up so much, Garon had trouble going toe to toe with my Xander, and Xander, Corrin, Leo, and Camilla working together just crushed him. Well, that was a disappointing final boss! I don't care about how this game ends, so I just turned the game off! Thats it! The game is over! I had a blast playing it and reacting to it for you all, but its over now! I'm done! Finished! Leave now, for there is nothing more to see!

...okay, not really. Looks like its time to crush Takumi Trump one last time! But Mr. Whatever the Royal House of Hoshido is, I just have one question! How did you get past the entire Nohrian army that has occupied the Hoshidan capitol so quickly without incident?

TT: DeSTroY... KilL... CoRrIn...

Well, folks, its clear that in terms of the war of the plot holes, I've already won! Join me next time as I see just how much more shitty this game's writing can get!

[Reality]

Conquest's plot is so bad that it retroactively makes all the other FE games worse! Now include FFT, and all four ogre battle plots for political dramas that got supernatural shiz thrown in the final chapters for no good reason.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Man i can't wait to see how much you bitch about the final chapter. Theres so many bitching material in that chapter that by the end of it you'd make Thane looks like a Fates apologist

no offend Thane senpai i need my daily dosage of meme

[B.Leu]

I don't even have anything silly to say actually, I genuinely think that this part is a complete and utter stupid and insulting disaster without anything to laugh about.

Well, actually no, there's one thing that is epic, the music, but that's it, and it's not enough.

Edited April 28, 2016 by B.Leu

[Levin's Scarf]

Sadly I probably wont for Birthright, but I might do one for Revelation. I want to take a break from playing FE, though.

After seeing all the controversy in Reddit about Revelation, I have a feeling that you're gonna find it to be more frustrating/nonsensical than Birthright.

That being said, I personally liked Revelation. It isn't anywhere close to perfect, but I liked it nonetheless.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

-So I don't know if this was bad level design or what, but the easiest thing for me to do was not deploy anyone to any of the side rooms for this level, and then just charge forwards. I was able to easily destroy the enemy piecemeal. Either the level is brilliant or stupid.

-Really? Just...really? Garon doesn't have ANY conversations with his children? Not even Corrin? Were the writers on strike or something? I mean, thats probably why the writing is so shitty ("You WILL let us turn in this abomination, you filthy Capitalist oppressor!") but still!

...okay, not really. Looks like its time to crush Takumi Trump one last time! But Mr. Whatever the Royal House of Hoshido is, I just have one question! How did you get past the entire Nohrian army that has occupied the Hoshidan capitol so quickly without incident?

Wait, what? If you're in the main hallway, the Shrine Maidens should be Entrapping you.

Pretty sure Garon does have a conversation with Corrin. He says he should have killed Corrin despite what Anankos said. For anyone else, yeah, he just gets the generic combat dialogue. I guess the siblings wasted all their lines in the lead-in cutscene.

Probably the same reality hacks he used to get away at Cheve and the great wall.

[blah the Prussian]

Wait, what? If you're in the main hallway, the Shrine Maidens should be Entrapping you.

Pretty sure Garon does have a conversation with Corrin. He says he should have killed Corrin despite what Anankos said. For anyone else, yeah, he just gets the generic combat dialogue. I guess the siblings wasted all their lines in the lead-in cutscene.

Probably the same reality hacks he used to get away at Cheve and the great wall.

Weird. They never did that to me. I don't even think they had it in their inventories.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Oh, wait, is this on Normal? On Hard and up, the Shrine Maidens in the lower two rooms on each side come with infinite-range, 200-Hit Entrap Staves (that only have 1 use).

[Sunwoo]

As much pain as he endures, the game is still pretty consistent to remind the player that ultimately it's all for the best.

Isn't that one of the biggest criticisms of Conquest!Kamui? That he doesn't tell anyone why he's supporting the invasion and why he thinks it's a good idea? He could and should have discussed his feelings with his siblings but he didn't. He just believed Azura's insane plan was the only option and invited a lot of angst into his life. After chapter 15 he says "the hoshidans are all going to hate me because they don't understand my reasons", side-stepping the issue that his reasons are still pretty awful.

Yeah, that's a thing with Kamui.

"My happiness is a price to pay for saving the world," or "the Hoshidans don't understand my reasonings," or "I hope that my dream can come true someday". Me, me, me, me me. I, I, I, I, I. My gosh, I thought Chrom was a selfish prick for putting the life of one person over the lives of millions and the future, but Kamui is ridiculous. Your happiness isn't the price of saving the world. You seem plenty happy in the end, and it is Hoshido that suffers the most in Conquest. Your reasons are asinine and the result of a dumb ass plot point. If you were honest about your dream, you'd realize that 1) the dream is gone, and 2) saying that you wish that you and the people of the NATION YOU ARE INVADING can laugh and be siblings again is damned selfish and insensitive. Kamui just has the "it's all about me" disease, and selfish ass protagonists who don't learn better are very frustrating to put up with.

EDIT: Oh, blah, I'm surprised you didn't comment on Camilla, Leon, and Elise refusing to fight Garon in his snot form because "that's still our father", and implications that if snot!Garon hadn't tried to hurt his kids then none of them would've stood up against him.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Sunwoo

[saisymbolic]

Yeah, that's a thing with Kamui.

"My happiness is a price to pay for saving the world," or "the Hoshidans don't understand my reasonings," or "I hope that my dream can come true someday". Me, me, me, me me. I, I, I, I, I. My gosh, I thought Chrom was a selfish prick for putting the life of one person over the lives of millions and the future, but Kamui is ridiculous. Your happiness isn't the price of saving the world. You seem plenty happy in the end, and it is Hoshido that suffers the most in Conquest. Your reasons are asinine and the result of a dumb ass plot point. If you were honest about your dream, you'd realize that 1) the dream is gone, and 2) saying that you wish that you and the people of the NATION YOU ARE INVADING can laugh and be siblings again is damned selfish and insensitive. Kamui just has the "it's all about me" disease, and selfish ass protagonists who don't learn better are very frustrating to put up with.

EDIT: Oh, blah, I'm surprised you didn't comment on Camilla, Leon, and Elise refusing to fight Garon in his snot form because "that's still our father", and implications that if snot!Garon hadn't tried to hurt his kids then none of them would've stood up against him.

That was my thing with Corrinmui.

Bruh, when you chose Nohr, you are essentially telling all of Hoshido (siblings included) to kiss your ass. There is no having the sibling cake and eating it too. You make a choice, you face the consequences. Man (or woman) the hell up and accept that. That was the reason you made the choice in the first place.

Like I said in another thread, I like the premise of Conquest (of Fates in general) but the execution of it was terrible.

[Time the Crestfallen]

[spoiler=Revelation stuff]

I was talking about Gunter.

It's one thing to believe Gunter was being controlled, that much was obvious. But Kamui dismissed the criticism that he was making a mistake in being overly trusting. Dismissing valid criticism just because your opponent is possessed by an omnicidal dragon-god is ad hominem bro! After the incident with Anthony, he should have realized that being overly trusting was wrong of him but he goes back to being shonen Jesus when Gunter calls him out on his behavior.

This is a minor point, however. Kamui being a stereotypical shonen hero is the least of his problems.

Well like I said, Kamui is fully ready to admit that they fucked up with the Anthony incident, but the siblings immediately tell him that it's okay, that he was in the right and how they'll always coddle and protect him (even though they were all saying he was pants-on-head-retarded for several chapters before that). Why would Kamui ever think they were in the wrong when the siblings keep telling him that he's perfect? And again, even if it is ad hominem Kamui would have to be even more stupid to take the words of an insane dragon-god who's life mission is apparently to make him cry as valid criticism.

I'll concede your point on Azura's support, as that was a step in the right direction for making Kamui more accountable for his actions. That said, I don't think it completely counters my point. The game is still saying that Kamui is always doing the right thing, even if he doesn't enjoy it. This would be a fair stance to take but as we've discussed in many threads, Kamui had more options than supporting the invasion than the game wants to admit.

Well no, since the supports with Azura and Kamui's words throughout chapters 16-25 make it clear that they think he isn't doing the right thing and that siding with Nohr was a morally grey decision that was made for the greater good. Lesser of two evils and what not. Besides, the sacrificial lambs Azura and Xander is more blameworthy than Kamui in regards to not supporting the invasion; Azura for not trying at all to make people aware of Valla and Xander being so bullheaded and stupid that it takes his daddy being literally a slime monster for him to rebel.

As much pain as he endures, the game is still pretty consistent to remind the player that ultimately it's all for the best.

Isn't that one of the biggest criticisms of Conquest!Kamui? That he doesn't tell anyone why he's supporting the invasion and why he thinks it's a good idea? He could and should have discussed his feelings with his siblings but he didn't. He just believed Azura's insane plan was the only option and invited a lot of angst into his life. After chapter 15 he says "the hoshidans are all going to hate me because they don't understand my reasons", side-stepping the issue that his reasons are still pretty awful.

The TL;DR version of my counterargument is that while I agree with you that other characters stunted Kamui's growth, he is guilty of many sins the plot wants you to ignore.

Only because everyone else goes along with it. It's one thing for Kamui to believe that his actions are for the best and that the invasion, but it's another thing entirely for Hinoka, Sakura and Ryoma to actually believe him. And why would he discuss his reasons for the invasion with anyone when sacrifical lamb #1 Azura keeps saying don't mention Gooron until the time is right. Not to mention that I'm pretty sure that at the start of Chapter 26, Xander threatens to kill Kamui and Azura if they're wrong about Garon, even though they just helped conquer Hoshido and have no reason to lie (although I might be remembering correctly).