The Official Ultima Super Battle Cruise Fortress Topic Deluxe!

[frat_tastic]

Butterfree's stats are pretty workable until lategame...like, I'd say that Butterfree is totally usable and pretty good through Koga and is good against all of Team Rocket's poison mooks they love to use. Even when Butterfree's stats start to lag behind noticeably it can get some decent moves (throw it the Psychic TM I guess) and it can throw around Stun Spores, Sleep Powders and decently accurate Supersonics.

6.5/10.

[Ema Skye]

Pretty awesome Pokemon. Outside of Grass guys (Winona's Tropius, May's Lotad/Treecko family, and whatever else exists). Other than the Grass-type weakness, 60 base speed sucks... majorly. Swampert is pretty much guaranteed to always go second, though thankfully it is bulky. Speed matters ingame though, and this is enough to warrant some deductions.

Those two weaknesses give it a fair score of 8.5. However, the stupid Mudkip meme makes me exert a full point of bias for 7.5/10.

Edited June 17, 2012 by Lucina

[Strawman]

10/10

I would give it higher if I could. Water/ground is actually pretty good typing, it has solid defensive stats and great attack(not the best for water but eh). Maybe not the most varied moovepool ever in terms of typing. Plus it looks awesome and I generally just like it a lot.

[Strawman]

5.5/10

Its typing sucks and its stats are mediocre later in the game but Butterfree can be pretty awesome in the early game with its stats and early confusion. Also, metapod had good defense for that point in game and while it may take ti forever to kill anything, it'll be killing them before it takes much damage usually. Plus, I just have a strange soft spot for it, idk why.

[ZemZem]

Pretty awesome Pokemon. Outside of Grass guys (Winona's Tropius, May's Lotad/Treecko family, and whatever else exists).

Do you know what also exists? Ice Beam. Which you can get pretty early, too.

Other than the Grass-type weakness, 60 base speed sucks... majorly. Swampert is pretty much guaranteed to always go second, though thankfully it is bulky. Speed matters ingame though, and this is enough to warrant some deductions.

Understandable, but that many points?

I would give it 8.5 as it is comparable to Blaziken, but Blaziken's higher offensive parameters make it the better Hoenn starter.

What part of the 'don't compare to other Pokemon' rule don't you understand?

However, the stupid Mudkip meme makes me exert a full point of bias for 7.5/10.

You know it's funny.

[Ema Skye]

Do you know what also exists? Ice Beam. Which you can get pretty early, too.

You get it in the Abandoned Ship sidequest, which costs time. And after Surf (5 gyms) is hardly early.

Understandable, but that many points?

Just 1. From 9.5 to 8.5.

What part of the 'don't compare to other Pokemon' rule don't you understand?

Ugh, whatever. I still think that rule is garbage when it comes to Pokemon though.

[ZemZem]

Just 1. From 9.5 to 8.5.

Ugh, whatever. I still think that rule is garbage when it comes to Pokemon though.

Sorry, I saw that 7.5 when there were a few 10s around. Damn, I'm tired.

We're rating on a Pokemon's performance throughout the entire game, not how well it does compared to other Pokemon. Mudkip/Marshstomp/Swampert overall performs better than Torchic/Combusken/Blaziken throughout the gyms, anyway.

[ULTRA PRODIGY NUXL]

Oh god, Swampert is like one of the best walls in the game.

It can put itself in a role of a sweeper, learning Surf/EQ/Ice Beam, having great coverage.

In all honesty, I would put it as 15/10, but due to the cap, it is 10/10 imo

I love Swampert :3

[ULTRA PRODIGY NUXL]

6/10

cccccompoundeyes + sleep powder

[BBM]

I would give it 8.5 as it is comparable to Blaziken, but Blaziken's higher offensive parameters make it the better Hoenn starter.

Really? Let's take this Gym Leader by Gym Leader.

Roxanne: Torchic needs to be evolved and a higher level, Mudkip does not. Plus Mudkip hits Sp. Def and Combusken hits Def. Mudkip wins

Brawly: Mud Shot and Double Kick have roughly the same BP (not enough of a difference for it to really matter). Tie, because Marshtomp and Combusken actually have the same base Atk and Combusken has lol 5 higher base Speed. Plus, Machop is slower than both of them, and Meditite and Makuhita like spamming Focus Punch and Vital Throw respectively to make any slight lead in Speed useless.

Wattson: Marshtomp wins for being Ground type.

Flannery: Marshtomp has SE Water and Ground STAB, and Flannery's pokemon are even slower than Marshtomp, so Combusken's higher Speed doesn't make a difference. Advantage Marshtomp

Norman: Combusken wins due to SE Fighting STAB.

Winona: Combusken deals well with Tropius and Skarmory, but gets destroyed by Altaria, who has both Earthquake and Aerial Ace and resists both of his STABs. Marshtomp has only 1 less base speed than Tropius, so if it's at a good enough level, it should be able to OHKO Tropius with Ice Beam, although I'm not sure. But Ice Beam is also good for Altaria, and lets Marshtomp hit Pelipper neutrally, which Blaziken can't do without resorting to Strength or something. Marshtomp wins

Tate + Liza: Blaziken gets hit by Psychic, while Swampert pulls out Surf to hit 3/4 of their pokemon for SE damage, although it's weakened because it's a Double Battle, and Light Screen will probably go up. Even then, Swampert wins.

Wallace/Juan: Blaziken doesn't do well against all the Water moves. Swampert wins

Sydney: Blaziken wins with SE Fighting STAB.

Phoebe: This should really be a tie, but I'll give the win to Blaziken for better offence.

Glacia: Blaziken can handle the Glalies fine, but has trouble against the Sealeos and Walreins. Enough that this goes to Swampert.

Drake: Swampert wins with Ice Beam while more than half of Drake's team is busy walling both of Blaziken's STABs.

Steven/Wallace: Blaziken wins against Steven, but Swampert takes the cake against Wallace, so we'll call this a tie.

I see more blue than red. Also, even when Torchic wins, it's important to note that Mudkip is never at a position where he's useless. Maybe inferior to Torchic, but always capable of pitching in. Several times, however, Torchic is not just inferior, but actually a bad choice to bring to the battle. Additionally, Mudkip has only one weakness and can cover it well with Ice Beam, much better than Blaziken who has to resort to Thunderpunch to hit Water and Flying types (available only in Emerald), and has no way to combat Psychic types. Finally, you're overhyping Blaziken's offensive lead. It's got only 10 base Atk more than Swampert, and only 5 more Sp. Atk than Sceptile. Beats Swampert by 20 base Speed, but Sceptile beats him by a whopping 40 base Speed. Swampert might be slow, but Blaziken has barely average Speed, if that. BTW, Ice Beam is available at the Game Corner. No need to wait for the Abandoned Ship.

Edited June 17, 2012 by BigBangMeteor

[CrashGordon94]

W00t, Torchic beat Treeko!

...But it's probably gonna lose to Mudkip now...

I can't really rate Mudkip since I've never used it but I know that if I did I'd give it a full -1 bias for that stupid meme.

[Shadow Mir]

Blaziken wins against Steven

Wait, what? Can you please explain that? I've seen that stated, though I personally don't think it's that cut-and-dried. (Both of them hit 4 Pokemon each for SE with their STABs, but Blaziken gets Skarmory and Cradily whereas Swampert gets Armaldo and Claydol, and most of Steven's Pokemon have EQ, though admittedly Aggron shouldn't get a chance to use it due to quad weakness. Personally, I'd consider it closer to a tie.)

That said, 10/10. It just wrecks face from beginning to end, and has only one weakness (though it is a quad weakness). Personally, I really don't get why people say Blaziken's better, as I don't see that to be the case at all. Also, while its quad weakness to grass hurts, aside from Wallace's Ludicolo, Winona's Tropius and the rival's Grovyle, grass is hardly a relevant attack type. And it also trivializes Wattson and Flannery, to say nothing of it generally being effective in Gyms.

Edited June 17, 2012 by Golden Cucco

[Shotguner159]

Considering that you get it before you face Brock, it actually has some very decent stats. 60HP/45ATK/50DEF is pretty decent, and 80SP. ATK/80SP. DEF/70SPD is amazing considering how soon you can get it at. Plus, it can learn some VERY powerful SP. ATK moves, like Dream Eater, Shadow Ball, Solar Beam and Psychic. Not to mention CompoundEyes pretty much ensures that PoisonPowder/SleepPowder/Stun Spore/SuperSonic will always hit. Brocks Pokemon have VERY low SP. DEF, so using Confusion, it is going to be dealing good damage. When facing Misty, it will struggle to deal damage with Confusion due to her Pokemon's high Sp. Def, but can use PoisonPowder to make the Pokemon slowly faint. Lt. Surge curbstomps it so you're better of not bringing it into that gym. VERY helpful when fighting Erika, as Bug/Flying has a 4x Resist to Grass type moves, and Confusion hits her Grass/Poison types SE, and Gust hits all of her Pokemon SE. Psybeam helps it deal some remarkable Damage to Koga, as all of his types are pure Poison, and have no chance of resisting, although Muk has some impressive Sp. Def. Notably, as most of Team Rocket uses Poison types, it's ability to use Psychic type moves gives it the edge against most Mooks you face. You can teach it Shadow Ball via TM to get it to hit Sabrina's Psychic types SE and Psybeam will be SE against her Venomoth. Does poorly against Blaine due to his fire types, but makes a comeback against Giovanni as she hits his Nido's SE, and due to it's flying type, Dugtrio only has one attack it can use against her. She falters against his Rhyhorns, but she can still hit them for some damage before taking too many Rock-type attacks, and can use Giga Drain to hit them SE. Does poorly against Lorelai, but can use Giga Drain against her Water-types, decent against Bruno's fighting types as long as it isn't hit by Rock-type attacks. Does VERY well against Agatha due to Psychic-type attacks. Putting her Pokemon to sleep using Sleep Powder and then using Dream Eater is very effective. Fairs admirably against Lance, as it hit's his Pokemon with neutral attacks, enabling it to help chip at his Pokemon, and can put them to sleep to deal damage without fear of counters. It does poorly against Blue's Pidgeot, but can use Shadow Ball to help get rid of his Alakazam, and Giga Drain to help with his Rhydon. If you chose Bulbasaur, he can hit the Gyarados for neutral damage, and can use Shadow Ball to deal with Exeggutor, but fairs VERY poorly against Charizard. If you chose Charmader, it does poorly against Arcanine, but can use Giga Drain to deal with Blastoise, and again, Shadow Ball for Exeggutor. If you chose Squirtle, it does poorly against Arcanine, deals neutral damage to the Gyarados, and unless you've been carrying round the Psychic TM, has a poor chance against Venusaur as SleepPowder doesn't work, negating Dream Eater too, Giga Drain does 1/4 of what it could do, and Shadow Ball hits for Neutral damage, though if you have, can hit it SE.

7/10

Edited June 17, 2012 by Shotguner159

[charlie_]

Workable, but not ideal. By the time you bench it, it won't have had any TMs used on it.

5/10

[Ciarre]

Blaziken gets both earthquake and fire stab, plus fighting stab. That takes care of pretty much all of Steven's team, while Swampert just has to rely on power hits for the pokemon he doesn't hit super effective on.

[Shadow Mir]

Blaziken gets both earthquake and fire stab, plus fighting stab. That takes care of pretty much all of Steven's team, while Swampert just has to rely on power hits for the pokemon he doesn't hit super effective on.

Earthquake doesn't really help Blaziken SE anything it couldn't hit with its STABs, as far as Steven's concerned (only Aggron, which also goes down to fighting, and Metagross, which fire would probably be better against [i calculated, and a level 58 Blaziken with no EVs, IVs or nature using EQ only does 50-60% to a level 58 Metagross with the same restrictions]). Also, there's only one Pokemon Steven has that Swampert can't possibly SE (Skarmory).

Edited June 17, 2012 by Golden Cucco

[whitewings ilia]

Ow...my first starter when I play pokemon Sapphire at the first time. IMO, this is the best starter. You get water gun at level 10 which is very effective against Roxanne's Nosepass (yeah, it is )

The dual type after evolve at level 16 makes that pokemon really interesting. Water+Ground and has one weakness, Grass. Give Ice Beam, sooooo....goodbye Grass and Electric. You can't touch me.

One minus for this pokemon is the speed. That's it.

My score for this pokemon is 9/10. But, since it's so adorable (forget about the speed), 10/10.

[Ema Skye]

Considering that you get it before you face Brock, it actually has some very decent stats. 60HP/45ATK/50DEF is pretty decent, and 80SP. ATK/80SP. DEF/70SPD is amazing considering how soon you can get it at. Plus, it can learn some VERY powerful SP. ATK moves, like Dream Eater, Shadow Ball, Solar Beam and Psychic. Not to mention CompoundEyes pretty much ensures that PoisonPowder/SleepPowder/Stun Spore/SuperSonic will always hit. Brocks Pokemon have VERY low SP. DEF, so using Confusion, it is going to be dealing good damage. When facing Misty, it will struggle to deal damage with Confusion due to her Pokemon's high Sp. Def, but can use PoisonPowder to make the Pokemon slowly faint. Lt. Surge curbstomps it so you're better of not bringing it into that gym. VERY helpful when fighting Erika, as Bug/Flying has a 4x Resist to Grass type moves, and Confusion hits her Grass/Poison types SE, and Gust hits all of her Pokemon SE. Psybeam helps it deal some remarkable Damage to Koga, as all of his types are pure Poison, and have no chance of resisting, although Muk has some impressive Sp. Def. Notably, as most of Team Rocket uses Poison types, it's ability to use Psychic type moves gives it the edge against most Mooks you face. You can teach it Shadow Ball via TM to get it to hit Sabrina's Psychic types SE and Psybeam will be SE against her Venomoth. Does poorly against Blaine due to his fire types, but makes a comeback against Giovanni as she hits his Nido's SE, and due to it's flying type, Dugtrio only has one attack it can use against her. She falters against his Rhyhorns, but she can still hit them for some damage before taking too many Rock-type attacks, and can use Giga Drain to hit them SE. Does poorly against Lorelai, but can use Giga Drain against her Water-types, decent against Bruno's fighting types as long as it isn't hit by Rock-type attacks. Does VERY well against Agatha due to Psychic-type attacks. Putting her Pokemon to sleep using Sleep Powder and then using Dream Eater is very effective. Fairs admirably against Lance, as it hit's his Pokemon with neutral attacks, enabling it to help chip at his Pokemon, and can put them to sleep to deal damage without fear of counters. It does poorly against Blue's Pidgeot, but can use Shadow Ball to help get rid of his Alakazam, and Giga Drain to help with his Rhydon. If you chose Bulbasaur, he can hit the Gyarados for neutral damage, and can use Shadow Ball to deal with Exeggutor, but fairs VERY poorly against Charizard. If you chose Charmader, it does poorly against Arcanine, but can use Giga Drain to deal with Blastoise, and again, Shadow Ball for Exeggutor. If you chose Squirtle, it does poorly against Arcanine, deals neutral damage to the Gyarados, and unless you've been carrying round the Psychic TM, has a poor chance against Venusaur as SleepPowder doesn't work, negating Dream Eater too, Giga Drain does 1/4 of what it could do, and Shadow Ball hits for Neutral damage, though if you have, can hit it SE.

7/10

Why can't Sleep Powder work against Venusaur? Sleep Powder works without regards to typing or level.

and I think you're using way too may resources here for Butterfree. I'm counting at least 5 TMs, all of which are one use, that you want to give Butterfree.

Edited June 17, 2012 by Lucina

[BBM]

Hmm, I've never actually used Caterpie, so I'm going to bump up his score a bit, listening to some of the stuff he can pull off.

[Shotguner159]

Why can't Sleep Powder work against Venusaur? Sleep Powder works without regards to typing or level.

and I think you're using way too may resources here for Butterfree. I'm counting at least 5 TMs, all of which are one use, that you want to give Butterfree.

Was thinking of Leech Seed, as that doesn't work on Grass-types. And I assumed we were rating them based on a void where we can give them as many resources as we want in order to get the best performance. If not, lower the vote to a 4.5/10, as without most of the resources, Butterfree becomes essentially worthless after Koga.

Edit: I meant it CAN learn Solar Beam and Psychic if you wanted it to. I gave it Dream Eater, Giga Drain and Shadow Ball, and the only way to get Shadow Ball is Celadon Game Corner, so there's infinite ones of that available.

Edited June 17, 2012 by Shotguner159

[frat_tastic]

I wouldn't say Butterfree is necessarily entitles to all those resources, but even just tossing one or two its way helps it out tremendously. Shadow Ball, Psychic (which is my preference since Butterfree has a workable SATK stat) are really all it needs to extend its life pretty significantly, IMO.

[DarthMikey]

A bit annoying to train at first, but that's not so bad. It's really good early on as a Butterfree, when its stats easily beat anything else in your team and it has Confusion to murder loads of mooks, particularly the Poison types Team Rocket favors in Mt. Moon; awesome Zubat killer. It gets the Sleep/Poison/Paralysis moves at levels 13-15, which shifts its role to that of a utility Pokemon raining inability on enemies. It's very solid for the entire earlygame, and you can rely on it to be handy.

However, as you train everyone else, it swiftly begins to lag behind stat-wise; 80 for Special stats and 70 for Speed isn't too bad, but everything else will make you groan once you get into the more heavy-duty section of the game; around the time you reach Vermillion, I'd say. Its movepool is rather mediocre to boot, getting Gust and Psybeam at the late 20s/early 30s, and learning Silver Wind at level 47 (which also happens to be its final natural move). Giga Drain, Solarbeam, Aerial Ace, and Psychic can be gotten from TMs, but there are better Pokemon for all of those moves, and it's pointless throwing them to Butterfree. It's pretty bad (if usable) long-term, but it shines in the earlygame when you have a weaker team backing you up. Its general inability to keep up with the rest of your squad holds it back considerably, but if you really like Butterfree, go ahead and use it to the E4, I guess. It can learn some good Psychic-type moves, which is always nice.

5/10

[DarthMikey]

This guy. Literally the only bad matchups he has all game are May's Grovyle and Wallace's Ludicolo. He is possibly the best starter (ingame) of all time. 10/10

[Breezy Kanzaki]

These guys are amazing.

They only have trouble against grass types in the first 1/3 of the game, and then you get Ic Beam, and you kill the rest of the game.

Pretty much what many have said before me/

10/10

[OrangeCrush980]

I liek Mudkipz. He tanks anything that isn't grass and dishes out heavy damage in return. His speed is a problem, but when you're this good it can be more than forgiven.

9.5/10, +.5 bias for a total of 10/10