More Unpopular Fire Emblem Opinions

[Thane]

I would explain why, but I don't feel like it.

Then why are you posting in a public forum where we discuss our opinions?

[Lord Raven]

I'm fine with people arguing their point on my comment. But, I disagree with you. I think that Natasha is better than Moulder and that Seth is overrated among the fandom. I would explain why, but I don't feel like it. But if I did, I would, although pointless since you seem pretty rock solid on your perspectives. Maybe someone does not value high strength in their unit or prefers speed over defense. If you are partial to the latter, maybe you would find a unit like Hana more useful than Hinata. Reasons for what makes a unit good can differ between people. Of course this is all hypothetical. I don't know. I guess in conclusion, if some people found that Tana was better than Vanessa, they wouldn't be wrong.

State your reasons why and I'm willing to listen. Just because I give a counterpoint doesn't mean I'm not listening by the way.

Keep in mind that arguments aren't always about convincing the other person.

..!!!! Woah. I thought this was just a topic where people would state what they think in which the majority does not share the same viewpoint.

This is the purpose of a forum. To discuss things. If it were as simple as "post whatever and leave," then it would no longer be a forum but a circlejerk. People who soapbox are actively looked down upon. Edited December 26, 2016 by Lord Raven

[Florete]

Sophia isn't worth training. That's the issue. Nothing she does is unique after you build her up, and the cost of building her up is very steep.

This one is subjective. Whether or not Sophia is "worth training" is entirely up to the player. The original opinion was "Sophia is good once trained," which kind of depends on how much effort one puts in and isn't inherently false.

I can also follow Tate > Shanna for casual play, especially in hard mode, where Tate wins everything except Luck at equal levels practically forever.

But yeah stuff like Rutger > Fir isn't really debatable, much as I prefer Fir myself. Saying pre-promoted units are bad is an insane generalization that is inherently false before it's true since the only objective, never-changing difference between a pre-promote and a non-promote is that the former doesn't have to use a promotion item, which is a strict advantage. It helps that they often come with better-than-average weapon levels.

tl;dr I'm fucking tired of people trying to avoid defending themselves because of the opinion card. This is an open forum, not a soapbox.

We will never be rid of this. And by "we," I mean all of humanity.

[Hasnbaakoajsbakaiaja]

Then why are you posting in a public forum where we discuss our opinions?

I guess at the moment. I definitely will. Just not now. Or maybe now.

[Jedi]

We talked about this, but I'm assuming you mean literal graphical quality over aesthetics and art direction?

Yes.

Sure, we still use the names but when asking people to name a particular Est I'd wager that a lot of them would be quicker to talk about Nino than about the first Est.

When we talk Jagen's I also think that Marcus or Seth evoke more memories than the first Jagen. Though the divide between Oeifey's and Jagen's makes that one a bit murkier.

And in the end those newer characters also have more to work with. If you can only include one red cavalier in a crossover and you choose Cain over Sully or Kieran you have a characters in your story who's not particularly deep or memorable in the personality department, no matter how iconic birthing an archetype made him. And this goes for a lot of Akaneans. Abel seems a little bland compared to the womanizing Sain, Meric can't hope to become as interesting as Soren and Lorenz doesn't have the strong points that Tauroneo has.

And perhaps its not entirely fair to compare them to much more modern versions of their archtype but the chance to make the Akaneans catch up to their counterparts was missed in Shadow Dragon. They got some much needed development in 12 but that game reached a lot less people and I personally say those one or two supports weren't enough to make them catch up.

While they may not have as much in terms of their in game actions, a fair number of Akanean characters have supplementary material, and you can fill in the dots there, and do note that the best selling FE game before Awakening was 3, and that 3 is still highly regarded. Your points about those characters having more personality aren't for naught but, in the end, the Akaneans are more historically relevant than Sain, Kieran, Soren or Tauroneo will ever amount to. Quite a number of Akanean characters also have fairly tragic endings as well, end game isn't "happily ever after" and people probably like that about them too.

Edited December 26, 2016 by Jedi

[Lord Raven]

This one is subjective. Whether or not Sophia is "worth training" is entirely up to the player. The original opinion was "Sophia is good once trained," which kind of depends on how much effort one puts in and isn't inherently false.

Let's not mince words. Sophia's "worth", which I've always taken to mean as "the benefit you get out of her cost" is measurable. Sophia brings nothing new; she has a low staff rank, shit durability, can hit hard and kill (much like many other units in the game, but with less durability) and not much else. She's weighed down by her tomes and her growths aren't anything insane either (lower than your starting cavaliers, for reference). Add to that how her base accuracy is actually quite bad (she has some like 50 hit on enemies as soon as she joins) which means you have to spend a lot of time to get someone who is still struggling to be as good as your other units. That has very little worth by many metrics of worth.

I can also follow Tate > Shanna for casual play, especially in hard mode, where Tate wins everything except Luck at equal levels practically forever.

Luck, Speed, and Skill. To some degree I follow it in casual play, but even in casual play it's not hard to make the Thany > Tate argument, it's just more understandable if you're going slower.

We will never be rid of this. And by "we," I mean all of humanity.

I'm still gonna call it out when I see it. Edited December 26, 2016 by Lord Raven

[Hasnbaakoajsbakaiaja]

Alright, I guess I will say why I think Natasha is better than Moulder first. Since people seem to be doing the Tate v. Shanna for me.

Natasha:

- Passes Moulder on Magic by Lv 6 and stays that way

- Even Speed with Moulder

- Superior Luck(Better Avoidance)

- Decent Staff Rank(Although I don't think this matters much)

-Better Res

-Even Supports

-Bad Defense(High Avoidance makes this irrelevant))

Moulder:

-Better CON(I don't think this matters for a healer or when they promote)

-Better Physical Bulk(For a healer, but not for a physical unit)

-Superior Skill(Skl is the most useless stat imo)

-Bad Res(If he can barely take Physical Hits and cant take Magic hits very well either.....)

-Res is better than your average unit though

-Low Luck(Less avoidance, more susceptible to crits)

-Better Rank and Join time(But not by much)

-Even Speed and Supports

Superior Magic and Avoidance makes Natasha a better unit in terms of offense and utility. Staff Rank will be slightly behind that of Moulder, which doesn't matter since you wont need status staves often.(FE8's difficulty) Moulder's earlier join time isn't by much(So usage is pretty even.) Also has better Res to deal with other Magic users.

Edited December 27, 2016 by 1japanfan

[Lord Raven]

Average stats don't matter as much when Moulder hits promotion faster and is around a bit longer, on top of being more durable.

The issue of Natasha vs Moulder is how quickly they can utilize their support ability. They're meant to be utility units because their weapon level won't allow for a strong offense, and Natasha's durability will make any sort of long-term offense hard. Moulder having a higher base level and showing up many chapters earlier does him more favors than Natasha, and it takes Moulder like 15ish less staff uses to hit promotion than Natasha so odds are they will have comparable Magic (if not that then Moulder will outright win, due to higher magic bonus from promotion to bishop - and Natasha doesn't get staff rank from a Valkyrie promotion). Moulder also has +1 staff rank from her at base, and the gap between their staff rank widens when Natasha is recruited.

Moulder is a better utility unit and their offenses as a Bishop will be comparable due to Moulder's level advantage and durability advantage. On the other hand, if Natasha promotes to Valkyrie she loses utility from staff rank and she loses offense in comparison to Moulder due to not having the Slayer ability. Natasha's only true advantage is Luck and Magic, because Moulder's join time and staff rank gives him a greater advantage in comparison.

[Hasnbaakoajsbakaiaja]

I didn't mean to posted that last part. That was just me comparing.

[Hasnbaakoajsbakaiaja]

In reference to the Average Stats.

[Augestein]

Natasha has better support options for what it's worth. Much better.

[Florete]

Let's not mince words. Sophia's "worth", which I've always taken to mean as "the benefit you get out of her cost" is measurable. Sophia brings nothing new; she has a low staff rank, shit durability, can hit hard and kill (much like many other units in the game, but with less durability) and not much else. She's weighed down by her tomes and her growths aren't anything insane either (lower than your starting cavaliers, for reference). Add to that how her base accuracy is actually quite bad (she has some like 50 hit on enemies as soon as she joins) which means you have to spend a lot of time to get someone who is still struggling to be as good as your other units. That has very little worth by many metrics of worth.

Many, but not all. If a player enjoyed using Sophia, she was worth it. It is an unpopular opinion.

[Hasnbaakoajsbakaiaja]

Average stats don't matter as much when Moulder hits promotion faster and is around a bit longer, on top of being more durable.

The issue of Natasha vs Moulder is how quickly they can utilize their support ability. They're meant to be utility units because their weapon level won't allow for a strong offense, and Natasha's durability will make any sort of long-term offense hard. Moulder having a higher base level and showing up many chapters earlier does him more favors than Natasha, and it takes Moulder like 15ish less staff uses to hit promotion than Natasha so odds are they will have comparable Magic (if not that then Moulder will outright win, due to higher magic bonus from promotion to bishop - and Natasha doesn't get staff rank from a Valkyrie promotion). Moulder also has +1 staff rank from her at base, and the gap between their staff rank widens when Natasha is recruited.

Moulder is a better utility unit and their offenses as a Bishop will be comparable due to Moulder's level advantage and durability advantage. On the other hand, if Natasha promotes to Valkyrie she loses utility from staff rank and she loses offense in comparison to Moulder due to not having the Slayer ability. Natasha's only true advantage is Luck and Magic, because Moulder's join time and staff rank gives him a greater advantage in comparison.

His advantages are so miniscule that is almost doesn't matter. Staff Rank barely matter due to FE8's difficulty you probably only need Mend and Physic. And he joins like 3 chapters earlier? Magic is important. Its harder to kill Natasha than Moulder anyway. Avoidance>Defense Trying to make a bulky healer without giving him enough bulk isn't optimal(no luck either) while no enemy will even come close to hitting Natasha.

[Jedi]

His advantages are so miniscule that is almost doesn't matter. Staff Rank barely matter due to FE8's difficulty you probably only need Mend and Physic.

Warp is a very significant thing to a number of players among other things. Raven will go into this more

Edited December 27, 2016 by Jedi

[Lord Raven]

@Red Fox - This argument's about to be semantical. Worth in terms of a player's personal gain vs worth in terms of an objective measurement of utility vs input are two different things.

His advantages are so miniscule that is almost doesn't matter. Staff Rank barely matter due to FE8's difficulty you probably only need Mend and Physic. And he joins like 3 chapters earlier? Magic is important. Its harder to kill Natasha than Moulder anyway. Avoidance>Defense Trying to make a bulky healer without giving him enough bulk isn't optimal(no luck either) while no enemy will even come close to hitting Natasha.

Staff rank matters more for using more advanced staffs like Warp, Hammerne, and Rescue. Not being able to use Barrier at base level also makes it harder to build up Natasha, because you can't always spam healing staffs every turn + Barrier gives more EXP and WEXP than Heal and Mend, which further increases their gap because Moulder can get more levels and WEXP by using Barrier (which he can use at any time). Physic is B rank and Fortify is A rank btw so those are useful healing staffs that Moulder can use much much earlier than Natasha. Also, their Speed stats are comparable, but Moulder can use heavier tomes without speed loss and his HP and Def boosts are significantly higher to the extent where he can survive more hits. It also accounts for the gap in resistance growths.

Having that said, not being able to use anything but staffs before promotion + not having access to Barrier at base actually increases their level and staff rank gap. Moulder can simply accumulate levels faster, and your growths don't matter as much if you can't level up as quickly.

Edited December 27, 2016 by Lord Raven

[eclipse]

His advantages are so miniscule that is almost doesn't matter. Staff Rank barely matter due to FE8's difficulty you probably only need Mend and Physic. And he joins like 3 chapters earlier? Magic is important. Its harder to kill Natasha than Moulder anyway. Avoidance>Defense Trying to make a bulky healer without giving him enough bulk isn't optimal(no luck either) while no enemy will even come close to hitting Natasha.

Chapter 6 is a Fog of War chapter. The Torch staff is available for purchase on the world map, in Serafew. Why does this matter? Because there's two ways of doing Chapter 6:

1. Rush to the boss like no one's business.

2. Defend yourself from the troops and reinforcements (which spawn behind you), while dealing with the spider

In both scenarios, you'll want vision, which the Torch Staff provides (never mind the relatively insane WEXP), whether it be to light up the boss, or to see just how far away those reinforcements are.

Other staves with situational uses are Restore, Rescue, Warp, Hammerne, and Fortify (yes I'm well aware of Rescue/Warp's uses, no I'm not going to argue that right now), and maybe Silence.

The other point I see is Natasha's survivability via evasion. Both Moulder and Natasha have the same Speed growth, so the only noticeable difference is Luck, at the tune of (Natasha's Luck - Moulder's Luck). Honestly, supports do a better job than Natasha's Luck lead.

[Hasnbaakoajsbakaiaja]

@Red Fox - This argument's about to be semantical. Worth in terms of a player's personal gain vs worth in terms of an objective measurement of utility vs input are two different things.

Staff rank matters more for using more advanced staffs like Warp, Hammerne, and Rescue. Not being able to use Barrier at base level also makes it harder to build up Natasha, because you can't always spam healing staffs every turn + Barrier gives more EXP and WEXP than Heal and Mend, which further increases their gap because Moulder can get more levels and WEXP by using Barrier (which he can use at any time). Physic is B rank and Fortify is A rank btw so those are useful healing staffs that Moulder can use much much earlier than Natasha. Also, their Speed stats are comparable, but Moulder can use heavier tomes without speed loss and his HP and Def boosts are significantly higher to the extent where he can survive more hits. It also accounts for the gap in resistance growths.

Having that said, not being able to use anything but staffs before promotion + not having access to Barrier at base actually increases their level and staff rank gap. Moulder can simply accumulate levels faster, and your growths don't matter as much if you can't level up as quickly.

Well, I doubt you will be using Fortify until late game, which is the point where Natasha can wield it. You got me with Barrier and Physic. That is useful. But the other staves aren't that useful. Warp and Rescue I find useful only for LTCs. 65% Hp and 25% Def? Significant is a bit of an over exaggeration. The CON issue for Natasha is fixed by Luck. Natasha:Better Avoid+ Higher Mag/Res/Luk > Moulder:Mediocre Offensive/Bulk+Utility

[Lord Raven]

Moulder has 70% HP (over Natasha's 50%) and 25% Def (over Natasha's 10%). That's a pretty large difference.

Warp and Rescue are useful for more than just LTCs. The CON issue is more about attack speed than avoid, and if you compare their stats at realistic levels (like Moulder would be at 10/5 when Natasha's at 10/1) you'll see the gap isn't significant.

Also, Natasha hitting Fortify later requires you to play at turtle pace, which makes their differences negligent.

[Hasnbaakoajsbakaiaja]

Wait before we continue can you help me? I just got to the end of FE6 and had an A support with Lilina and Roy but didn't get their ending. Was something else required?

[Hasnbaakoajsbakaiaja]

Moulder has 70% HP (over Natasha's 50%) and 25% Def (over Natasha's 10%). That's a pretty large difference.

Warp and Rescue are useful for more than just LTCs. The CON issue is more about attack speed than avoid, and if you compare their stats at realistic levels (like Moulder would be at 10/5 when Natasha's at 10/1) you'll see the gap isn't significant.

Also, Natasha hitting Fortify later requires you to play at turtle pace, which makes their differences negligent.

He does beat Natasha in Bulk. But compared to other units its not much. The Bulk is more of a useless pro. While Natasha is squishy, she wont get hit. I guess this balances them a bit when it comes to attack speed, since Moulder has higher CON but Natasha has better Mag, I would say their attacking presence is about even. Warp and Rescue are very situational. And you wont need Fortify until late game. Natasha will have Fortify by then. Moulder will have it prior to. But that's when you don't really need it.

[eclipse]

If you didn't fight Brunya, you didn't see the end of FE6.

[Hasnbaakoajsbakaiaja]

I beat Idun. Lilina didn't even show up in the credits. She never died.

Edited December 27, 2016 by 1japanfan

[Hasnbaakoajsbakaiaja]

Lilina didn't even show up in the credits. She never died.

[solrocknroll]

you probably didn't bring lilina to the final chapter

i'm pretty sure you only get the endings of your idoun team

[Lord Raven]

He does beat Natasha in Bulk. But compared to other units its not much. The Bulk is more of a useless pro. While Natasha is squishy, she wont get hit. I guess this balances them a bit when it comes to attack speed, since Moulder has higher CON but Natasha has better Mag, I would say their attacking presence is about even. Warp and Rescue are very situational. And you wont need Fortify until late game. Natasha will have Fortify by then. Moulder will have it prior to. But that's when you don't really need it.

10/1 Moulder has combat, and Natasha will be like Level 5-6 at this point and won't see combat.

Moulder could be like 10/8 when Natasha promotes due to Bishops having an EXP boost in combat.

10/8 Moulder has +5 Magic, +3 Spd, +3-4 Def, +7 HP, and -7-8 luck to 10/1 Natasha. Moulder has a combat advantage by a good amount, and by virtue of being promoted for longer has a very significant combat advantage.