The Absolute Worst Fire Emblem Characters.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, SpearOfLies said:

They have similar damage on most of case but Rend Heaven have higher chance, far higher chance. Which also make your argument about Sol chance base very stupid.

Physical Rend Heaven useless against mage? Are you really think about use a great knight(one of unit have bad res) fight against mages because is luna is more useful than Rend Heaven against them? When have other unit thats can far more easy kill a mage or weak them without get hard retaliated?

I admitted the part about Rend Heaven's actuvation rate already. Also, due to the way procs work, Sol can get in the way of other damaging procs, which can hurt if I needed that extra damage from Luna or Ignis to kill something.

Because I'll always have a ninja or maid who hasn't used their turn to send at them, right? Also, note that only Felicia and Jakob can have Tomebreaker for more than like two chapters, and in Conquest in particular, enemies refuse to attack anyone that they either have no chance to hit or can't damage.

5 hours ago, DLuna said:

That's the same as going "Pfft, Fates weapon buying'".

Bronze weapons only cost 500g. For a +2 you just need 2000g. That's the same amount... as buying a steel weapon. 

And it depends what you mean by "bad". Sure there's quite a few mediocre units (although Arthur isn't one of them -- his availability is great and LCK is his only major flaw aside from middling accuracy early... both completely fixed by a forge) but no unit has truly bad payoff and while some come a bit underleveled, that's not enough to make them outright bad. Although Odin arguably comes fairly close.

Arthur, as I said way earlier in this thread, is VERY far from what I'd consider "good", and doesn't even deserve to be called "mediocre" in my book. His presence on the team is more of a hindrance than a help.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Dunal]

31 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Arthur, as I said way earlier in this thread, doesn't even deserve to be called "mediocre" in my book. His presence on the team is more of a hindrance than a help.

...why? 

Bronze weapon gives him +10 dodge (negating low % crits) and a huge amount of accuracy. His growths are good. His availability is great. He's decently tanky and has the best weapon type (that happens to get a Reaver weapon fairly early on). Berserker is one of the best classes in the game as well. His own kid fixes his dodge later in the game as well if he wants to use another weapon.

And then all enemies around him lose a whopping 15 dodge, negating up to 30 luck. Combine that with the Berserker class (or any other unit on your team with high crit) and Arthur is immensely powerful. And one of the best attack stance units hands down.

Nyx is the other example of a unit who gets significantly better with a cheap forge. She does need a few early speed tonics and/or food buffs early on though, so that does drag her down a bit.

Edited February 23, 2017 by DLuna

[Moblin Major General]

9 minutes ago, DLuna said:

Berserker is one of the best classes in the game as well. His own kid fixes his dodge later in the game as well if he wants to use another weapon.

I'll give you Percy, sure, but tell me what a whopping -30 dodge on promotion is doing to help Arthur's piss poor crit evade. Berserker is the last thing I want Arthur as, especially because he will eat many more hits and crits than even Hana.

Speaking of which, why does the game hate Hana so much? She should be better at dodging than she is, and her luck seems very high to be taking so many crits.

[Dunal]

14 minutes ago, Hylian Air Force said:

I'll give you Percy, sure, but tell me what a whopping -30 dodge on promotion is doing to help Arthur's piss poor crit evade. Berserker is the last thing I want Arthur as, especially because he will eat many more hits and crits than even Hana.

Speaking of which, why does the game hate Hana so much? She should be better at dodging than she is, and her luck seems very high to be taking so many crits.

Berserker has a penalty of -5 dodge, not -30 dodge. If it's really that bad, you can give him two goddess icons to negate this. Might be worthwhile if you're using him as he'll likely benefit it more than any other unit. LCK is pretty worthless for most other units. I suppose Camilla may be the other contender.

And that's without Percy, who will make Arthur completely immune to crits by himself, for the most part. Without him, you'd need a forged bronze of course.

Either way, Arthur has a whole lot going for him aside from this minor inconvenience of needing to play around his innate dodge. Even then, it's not difficult to minimise the issue.

And considering that Bronze is his best candidate for a weapon, a class change to Cavalier is pretty effective as a substitute sword or lance user, as weapon rank means nothing outside of having a ranged weapon.

He has a lot of options and little weaknesses outside of his one notable flaw. And in return, the other side of his passive (that affects enemies) is extremely powerful.

 

Not that I'm advocating that he's top tier or anything. Although he would be if he had higher SPD to consistently double and/or some more RES. His performance with ranged weapons can be shaky as well. But he's a solid B+ or A- unit. Availability over a lot of the roster puts him pretty high up IMO.

Edited February 23, 2017 by DLuna

[Shadow Mir]

35 minutes ago, DLuna said:

...why? 

Bronze weapon gives him +10 dodge (negating low % crits) and a huge amount of accuracy. His growths are good. His availability is great. He's decently tanky and has the best weapon type (that happens to get a Reaver weapon fairly early on). Berserker is one of the best classes in the game as well. His own kid fixes his dodge later in the game as well if he wants to use another weapon.

And then all enemies around him lose a whopping 15 dodge, negating up to 30 luck. Combine that with the Berserker class (or any other unit on your team with high crit) and Arthur is immensely powerful. And one of the best attack stance units hands down.

Nyx is the other example of a unit who gets significantly better with a cheap forge. She does need a few early speed tonics and/or food buffs early on though, so that does drag her down a bit.

What, were you asleep while I was lecturing the class? I'm not soft like you are. Also, did you forget who you're addressing already?? Looks like it if you think Berserker is one of the best classes in the game, which I vehemently disagree with (I think it's the absolute worst, and is much better on the enemy side than on the player side).

It's pretty naive to think -15 crit evade on enemies even comes close to making up for being a crit magnet, especially when most units don't even have that much in the first place, and crits are much more powerful in enemy hands anyhow.

[Dunal]

57 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

What, were you asleep while I was lecturing the class? I'm not soft like you are. Also, did you forget who you're addressing already??

Thanks for the passive-aggressiveness, I guess? Sorry for raising a few valid points?

57 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Looks like it if you think Berserker is one of the best classes in the game, which I vehemently disagree with (I think it's the absolute worst, and is much better on the enemy side than on the player side).

+20 crit gives berserkers some of the best offense in the entire game. And while -5 dodge matters on Arthur more than any other unit, it still doesn't matter that much.

Axe locked isn't bad since it's the best weapon type, and you get a reaver early on. Being on foot rather than mounted limits weakness to certain weapons as well. The class base stats are also really good offensively. You may need to explain why its so bad.

57 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

It's pretty naive to think -15 crit evade on enemies even comes close to making up for being a crit magnet, especially when most units don't even have that much in the first place, and crits are much more powerful in enemy hands anyhow.

But.. he isn't a crit magnet, I've already established this. You pay 2000g to solve this issue for 2/3rds of the game. Then it's the option of using his son or 1-2 goddess icons.

Does it matter? Yes (I mean, negating crits is only for melee range which definitely matters in some cases). But not that much when Arthur has huge upsides in other areas (solid stat spread, high availability, strong passive).

You might as well say Camilla or Beruka is bad for having bow weakness. Or Effie bad for having low movement. But every unit has their weaknesses and it's not fair to only acknowledge the negative aspects and in regards the Arthur, is a fixable one. 

Not everything is black and white and everything needs consideration. Just because you may dislike Arthur or dislike using him doesn't mean you need to immediately write him off and decide that his issues cannot be worked around, and that his good aspects (of which there are several) should be ignored.

You could certainly raise the point that he can have middling speed, inferior ranged weapon usage or low RES etc... But the repeating the fact that he's a 'crit magnet' has already been discussed. I mean, he's got a fair few weaknesses that are worth pointing out (as with most units) but also some great upsides. Availability is extremely valuable for a unit that doesn't even have bad/wonky bases (Odin, Nyx, Charlotte, Peri etc...). It means he can establish a comfortable level lead over units that join later. He's no Camilla, but he's pretty up there as the roster is concerned.

 

EDIT: To be further on-topic, Wendy is the worst unit in the series. Bases aside, she actually ends up arguably worse than the armor that joined 7 maps prior. And the class itself is bad in this game.

There are some other contenders like FE12!Sheena as well.

Edited February 23, 2017 by DLuna

[SpearOfLies]

1 hour ago, Hylian Air Force said:

I'll give you Percy, sure, but tell me what a whopping -30 dodge on promotion is doing to help Arthur's piss poor crit evade. Berserker is the last thing I want Arthur as, especially because he will eat many more hits and crits than even Hana.

Speaking of which, why does the game hate Hana so much? She should be better at dodging than she is, and her luck seems very high to be taking so many crits.

Because the game is against player's evade characters.

1 hour ago, DLuna said:

Thanks for the passive-aggressiveness, I guess? Sorry for raising a few valid points?

+20 crit gives berserkers some of the best offense in the entire game. And while -5 dodge matters on Arthur more than any other unit, it still doesn't matter that much.

Axe locked isn't bad since it's the best weapon type, and you get a reaver early on. Being on foot rather than mounted limits weakness to certain weapons as well. The class base stats are also really good offensively. You may need to explain why its so bad.

But.. he isn't a crit magnet, I've already established this. You pay 2000g to solve this issue for 2/3rds of the game. Then it's the option of using his son or 1-2 goddess icons.

Does it matter? Yes (I mean, negating crits is only for melee range which definitely matters in some cases). But not that much when Arthur has huge upsides in other areas (solid stat spread, high availability, strong passive).

You might as well say Camilla or Beruka is bad for having bow weakness. Or Effie bad for having low movement. But every unit has their weaknesses and it's not fair to only acknowledge the negative aspects and in regards the Arthur, is a fixable one. 

Not everything is black and white and everything needs consideration. Just because you may dislike Arthur or dislike using him doesn't mean you need to immediately write him off and decide that his issues cannot be worked around, and that his good aspects (of which there are several) should be ignored.

You could certainly raise the point that he can have middling speed, inferior ranged weapon usage or low RES etc... But the repeating the fact that he's a 'crit magnet' has already been discussed. I mean, he's got a fair few weaknesses that are worth pointing out (as with most units) but also some great upsides. Availability is extremely valuable for a unit that doesn't even have bad/wonky bases (Odin, Nyx, Charlotte, Peri etc...). It means he can establish a comfortable level lead over units that join later. He's no Camilla, but he's pretty up there as the roster is concerned.

 

EDIT: To be further on-topic, Wendy is the worst unit in the series. Bases aside, she actually ends up arguably worse than the armor that joined 7 maps prior. And the class itself is bad in this game.

There are some other contenders like FE12!Sheena as well.

Don't take him seriously. Now I give up to point his nosensical arguments. He basically say what he want to see and turn blind to want he don't want see.

[Dunal]

22 minutes ago, SpearOfLies said:

Because the game is against player's evade characters.

Sadly, not enough when it comes to Ryoma.

Speaking of bad luck, now that would have been a great secondary candidate for it. bronzesword!Ryoma too op It would mirror Xander as well.

[Shadow Mir]

4 hours ago, SpearOfLies said:

Don't take him seriously. Now I give up to point his nosensical arguments. He basically say what he want to see and turn blind to want he don't want see.

Because you never posted stuff that made me think you weren't worth taking seriously, right?

6 hours ago, DLuna said:

Thanks for the passive-aggressiveness, I guess? Sorry for raising a few valid points?

+20 crit gives berserkers some of the best offense in the entire game. And while -5 dodge matters on Arthur more than any other unit, it still doesn't matter that much.

Axe locked isn't bad since it's the best weapon type, and you get a reaver early on. Being on foot rather than mounted limits weakness to certain weapons as well. The class base stats are also really good offensively. You may need to explain why its so bad.

But.. he isn't a crit magnet, I've already established this. You pay 2000g to solve this issue for 2/3rds of the game. Then it's the option of using his son or 1-2 goddess icons.

Does it matter? Yes (I mean, negating crits is only for melee range which definitely matters in some cases). But not that much when Arthur has huge upsides in other areas (solid stat spread, high availability, strong passive).

You might as well say Camilla or Beruka is bad for having bow weakness. Or Effie bad for having low movement. But every unit has their weaknesses and it's not fair to only acknowledge the negative aspects and in regards the Arthur, is a fixable one. 

Not everything is black and white and everything needs consideration. Just because you may dislike Arthur or dislike using him doesn't mean you need to immediately write him off and decide that his issues cannot be worked around, and that his good aspects (of which there are several) should be ignored.

You could certainly raise the point that he can have middling speed, inferior ranged weapon usage or low RES etc... But the repeating the fact that he's a 'crit magnet' has already been discussed. I mean, he's got a fair few weaknesses that are worth pointing out (as with most units) but also some great upsides. Availability is extremely valuable for a unit that doesn't even have bad/wonky bases (Odin, Nyx, Charlotte, Peri etc...). It means he can establish a comfortable level lead over units that join later. He's no Camilla, but he's pretty up there as the roster is concerned.

I'd say it's pretty bad when a player unit being on the receiving end of a critical hit more likely than not means you just lost. And +20 crit doesn't even come close to making up for it for reasons I already stated.

I never said being axe locked was bad. But it's far from ideal. 

The fact that he needs all this shows he's high maintenance, especially the part about Percy (because I'm totally going to devote a slot to a kid unit I'm not all that likely to use just to make Arthur not suck; in addition, the forge part was an especially bad argument).

Well, sure, he has his good points, but in the face of his bad points, they aren't enough (and the fact you're still trying to push his passive as "strong" shows you're grasping at straws, far as I'm concerned).

They don't have weaknesses that are arguably more crippling than Arthur's (Remember how big a deal being weak to Stealth Rock tends to be in Pokemon? I consider Arthur's crit vulnerability even more damning, because it can lead to his own demise).

It's a matter of "does what he brings to the table make up for his weaknesses?" And in my opinion, the answer is a resounding NO!

Arthur... pretty up there? HA HA HA HA HA HAHAHAHA... no. I don't know about you, but I don't consider high availability that much of a positive, especially if you suck or otherwise drag the team down.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Moblin Major General]

2 hours ago, DLuna said:

Thanks for the passive-aggressiveness, I guess? Sorry for raising a few valid points?

+20 crit gives berserkers some of the best offense in the entire game. And while -5 dodge matters on Arthur more than any other unit, it still doesn't matter that much.

Axe locked isn't bad since it's the best weapon type, and you get a reaver early on. Being on foot rather than mounted limits weakness to certain weapons as well. The class base stats are also really good offensively. You may need to explain why its so bad.

But.. he isn't a crit magnet, I've already established this. You pay 2000g to solve this issue for 2/3rds of the game. Then it's the option of using his son or 1-2 goddess icons.

Does it matter? Yes (I mean, negating crits is only for melee range which definitely matters in some cases). But not that much when Arthur has huge upsides in other areas (solid stat spread, high availability, strong passive).

You might as well say Camilla or Beruka is bad for having bow weakness. Or Effie bad for having low movement. But every unit has their weaknesses and it's not fair to only acknowledge the negative aspects and in regards the Arthur, is a fixable one. 

Not everything is black and white and everything needs consideration. Just because you may dislike Arthur or dislike using him doesn't mean you need to immediately write him off and decide that his issues cannot be worked around, and that his good aspects (of which there are several) should be ignored.

You could certainly raise the point that he can have middling speed, inferior ranged weapon usage or low RES etc... But the repeating the fact that he's a 'crit magnet' has already been discussed. I mean, he's got a fair few weaknesses that are worth pointing out (as with most units) but also some great upsides. Availability is extremely valuable for a unit that doesn't even have bad/wonky bases (Odin, Nyx, Charlotte, Peri etc...). It means he can establish a comfortable level lead over units that join later. He's no Camilla, but he's pretty up there as the roster is concerned.

Offense=/= utility. Garret has plenty of offense: doesn't mean he's useful.

Maybe not in Fates, but in games like FE6 and FE4, it's a crippling weakness. Also, footlocking makes him vulnerable to Trample at higher difficulties. Also, Axebreaker + Killing Edge (a unit such as this may exist in Conquest Lunatic) slaughters any Arthur.

When you can use that 2000 gold on a unit like Elise or Mozu? Also, forging is really not necessary on lower difficulties, and is also time-consuming to get resources.

Different type of weakness. Those are set weaknesses, and Effie's is actually fixable (Great Knight). Also, Arthur's is not only glaring, but may not just lead to his own demise.

He isn't. He just chooses not to use him (and you won't convince him, I sure as hell couldn't). Sure, his issues can be worked around, but he plays Commissar Emblem (I used to, especially during Awakening, but not anymore).

Availability doesn't matter so much in newer games, as the enemies don't scale as quickly as they do in earlier entries. It also doesn't make a better unit (Lilina>Lugh, Hardin>Cain/Abel). Also, EXP gain can be slow in Fates, especially because he isn't going to be killing much if he isn't fed kills.

[SpearOfLies]

1 hour ago, DLuna said:

Sadly, not enough when it comes to Ryoma.

Speaking of bad luck, now that would have been a great secondary candidate for it. bronzesword!Ryoma too op It would mirror Xander as well.

Someone manage to make Ryouma die for 1% hit, 1% crit  . Ryoma is clearly Arthur2.0(sarcasm) 

[Dunal]

40 minutes ago, Hylian Air Force said:

Offense=/= utility. Garret has plenty of offense: doesn't mean he's useful.

Maybe not in Fates, but in games like FE6 and FE4, it's a crippling weakness. Also, footlocking makes him vulnerable to Trample at higher difficulties. Also, Axebreaker + Killing Edge (a unit such as this may exist in Conquest Lunatic) slaughters any Arthur.

When you can use that 2000 gold on a unit like Elise or Mozu? Also, forging is really not necessary on lower difficulties, and is also time-consuming to get resources.

The Garret thing is an odd argument. I'm not sure on the comparison, there. Garret has other issues like speed and isn't that tanky either. And he's not around for half the game. He's not bad -- low investment unit for a game that doesn't scale enemies that much. There's far worse even despite his weaknesses.

2000g to buy a weapon that Arthur can use well for 60-70% of the game. That's... a really small investment for a unit you're using the entire game. The whole "why not spend 2k gold on another unit" is extremely unfair/biased because it can apply to any unit. Especially in the case of Mozu who needs a whole lot more to just be a really good player phase unit.

Aside from the farm resources of which you need 5 of two types of them (not that crazy), it's the same as just buying a weapon. 

Quote

Different type of weakness. Those are set weaknesses, and Effie's is actually fixable (Great Knight). Also, Arthur's is not only glaring, but may not just lead to his own demise.

Kinda contradictory since Arthur's isn't a 'set weakness' either and is also fixable. 

Effie is also weak to Hammers and Horseslayers as a GK. You trade one weakness for another and don't get immunity from being doubled either. Everything comes with a tradeoff.

Quote

Availability doesn't matter so much in newer games, as the enemies don't scale as quickly as they do in earlier entries. It also doesn't make a better unit (Lilina>Lugh, Hardin>Cain/Abel). Also, EXP gain can be slow in Fates, especially because he isn't going to be killing much if he isn't fed kills.

It's still important though. Charlotte definitely suffers from it in exactly the same way Arthur benefits from it. A level a map means a ~4 level lead in this case, which factor into stats. Arthur is in a great position on joining almost right away with decent bases. That combination is one of the best traits in FE.

He's tanky, as well as having solid offence. And a good branching promotion for improving either. Aside from his main flaw, he doesn't have much else going against him.

And if you are using his Son (which isn't a detriment, just a recommendation if you are using Arthur outside of promoting to Hero) then Arthur just happens to be a fantastic lategame unit as a Berserker. That's a merit certainly worth bringing up as well.

I mean, Beruka's bow weakness is bigger detriment than Arthur's dodge, and the latter can be negated. While also being a couple levels ahead. And I wouldn't consider Beruka a bad unit either. They're very few and far between in conquest overall, under the context of how close unit balance is compared to other games in the series. Odin is mediocre at best, but not terrible. And Camilla and Xander at least have their own weaknesses; bows or magic. If I were to argue Arthur vs. Silas, then I'd give Silas the edge, but it's not that much off.

Edited February 23, 2017 by DLuna

[Just call me AL]

19 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I don't think the units that can access Sol in Awakening are that good either. And while you can use seals to get it on other units in Fates, (1) this requires building up supports, and (2) you only have a limited amount of seals to go around before the level 3 shop. 

Okay. So what's your point here?

19 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Well, it's true that Sol is more easily accessible in Fates, yes.

Well then. Why argue the fact that enemies in Fates have lower stats than enemies in Awakening as a point against the skill? 

19 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Silas might have to worry about being doubled in Revelations, what with coming with only 12 base speed.

Silas isn't really anything special on Revelations, so I'm not really concerned about him there. Which is kinda why I didn't mention that particular Silas.

20 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Also, I don't follow why you deny Luck being Camilla's weakest stat and say it's HP instead, since out of the Nohrian units, she has one of the worst luck growths, only beating Nyx and Arthur. Anyway, Camilla's luck may not be Arthur-level awful, but with 2 points of luck equalling one point of crit evade, it's still low enough that crits are a potential issue, more so in Revelation than in Conquest (it takes a while before Conquest throws promoted units at you regularly - around chapter 16). Hell, by the time I finished my Conquest playthrough, I wound up needing to get Veteran Intuition for both her and Sophie.

Bases > Growths, and Camilla has a solid Lck base. Combine that with the fact that she's expected to gain 4 points of Lck throughout her screentime, and she'll end up with about 16 points of Lck. Which is kinda par for the course for any FE unit. You might as well argue that the Lck stats on units like Hector, Geitz, Harken, or FE7 Marcus are "bad" as well, and I can't imagine THAT ending well for you. 

20 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Maybe, but it all means naught if Chrom's AI doesn't cooperate.

Which is why you want to move quickly on that map.

20 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I already countered both of those (particularly Awakening, which all of one unit - Felicia - can have without needing to wait until the game's practically over).

What are you? General Banzai? SazukeEX? ShockOfGod? Because last I recall, you didn't do anything of the sort. My Sol argument, maybe. But your argument then was a weak one, and still is now. But countering my suggested use of the Awakening skill? Closest I got was "it's a Lvl 35 skill", which was also a weak argument. (Because seriously. The amount of grinding you would need to Skill farm in Fates is considerably less than in Awakening.) You didn't mention Felicia at all then. Besides, Felicia doesn't have Samurai at base, whereas Ophelia does. And Felicia might not even be your Jagen, and even if she is, she's kinda frail. She wouldn't have much business being on the front lines, let alone using Vantage in conjunction with Sol or Awakening.

@Hylian Air Force : I don't get why you would claim that Lilina is a better unit than Lugh. Considering that they join 5 chapters apart, Lugh would have time to grow well before Lilina even joins, possibly even reaching Lvl 10. By then, he'll have 2.5 X her base Spd and her base Skl + 4. Even disregarding that expectation, Lugh's still quite noticeably faster and more accurate than Lilina. And it's not like he would have much trouble damaging enemies, considering how weak enemy Res tends to be.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Just call me AL said:

Okay. So what's your point here?

Well then. Why argue the fact that enemies in Fates have lower stats than enemies in Awakening as a point against the skill? 

Silas isn't really anything special on Revelations, so I'm not really concerned about him there. Which is kinda why I didn't mention that particular Silas.

Bases > Growths, and Camilla has a solid Lck base. Combine that with the fact that she's expected to gain 4 points of Lck throughout her screentime, and she'll end up with about 16 points of Lck. Which is kinda par for the course for any FE unit. You might as well argue that the Lck stats on units like Hector, Geitz, Harken, or FE7 Marcus are "bad" as well, and I can't imagine THAT ending well for you. 

Which is why you want to move quickly on that map.

What are you? General Banzai? SazukeEX? ShockOfGod? Because last I recall, you didn't do anything of the sort. My Sol argument, maybe. But your argument then was a weak one, and still is now. But countering my suggested use of the Awakening skill? Closest I got was "it's a Lvl 35 skill", which was also a weak argument. (Because seriously. The amount of grinding you would need to Skill farm in Fates is considerably less than in Awakening.) You didn't mention Felicia at all then. Besides, Felicia doesn't have Samurai at base, whereas Ophelia does. And Felicia might not even be your Jagen, and even if she is, she's kinda frail. She wouldn't have much business being on the front lines, let alone using Vantage in conjunction with Sol or Awakening.

@Hylian Air Force : I don't get why you would claim that Lilina is a better unit than Lugh. Considering that they join 5 chapters apart, Lugh would have time to grow well before Lilina even joins, possibly even reaching Lvl 10. By then, he'll have 2.5 X her base Spd and her base Skl + 4. Even disregarding that expectation, Lugh's still quite noticeably faster and more accurate than Lilina. And it's not like he would have much trouble damaging enemies, considering how weak enemy Res tends to be.

Because overkill damage doesn't count for Sol (if you deal 24 damage to someone who only has 10 HP, you only get 5 HP back).

Fair enough, I guess. 

That's a different game with weaker enemies, for one, and second, Luck was point-for-point with regard to crit evade in said game, as opposed to 2-for-1 in Fates.

My stance that Great Lord is underwhelming for all that remains unchanged. 

No, but I am someone who thinks you've been feeding me BS. 

Edited February 24, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[SpearOfLies]

Pfffffff.... I can't stop laugh.. This last post.... Pffffffff.... So much inconsistency... Pffffff...

[Shadow Mir]

1 minute ago, SpearOfLies said:

Pfffffff.... I can't stop laugh.. This last post.... Pffffffff.... So much inconsistency... Pffffff...

Pot, meet kettle. Need I say more?

[SpearOfLies]

5 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Pot, meet kettle. Need I say more?

Pls, write more and make me laugh to death.

[Shadow Mir]

1 minute ago, SpearOfLies said:

Pls, write more and make me laugh to death.

Heh. Remember, you asked for it. Though you shouldn't have, considering your track record is far from squeaky clean...

[Just call me AL]

On 2017年2月23日 at 8:33 PM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Because overkill damage doesn't count for Sol (if you deal 24 damage to someone who only has 10 HP, you only get 5 HP back).

And during then, Sol wouldn't need to work its magic because of how few enemies there would be left in that situation. So, again, what's your point? Because I'm not sure of what you're trying to establish here.

On 2017年2月23日 at 8:33 PM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

That's a different game with weaker enemies, for one, and second, Luck was point-for-point with regard to crit evade in said game, as opposed to 2-for-1 in Fates.

Doesn't matter. Camilla's still facing just as much chances of facing crits as those three would have. And it's not like a stray crit would kill her outright even if it DOES happen. Have you even tried using Camilla? If so, then you should know that what I'm saying is true. Heck, you could even see the screenshots someone posted up on the FE14 Conquest tier list to get a good idea of just how often she's gonna get critted. In one of those screenshots in question, the highest Crit chance Camilla's facing is 6%. Surely THAT should tell you something about her Lck stat.

On 2017年2月23日 at 8:33 PM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

My stance that Great Lord is underwhelming for all that remains unchanged. 

Again, it's a female-exclusive faster version of Hero that's traded Axes for Lances. Just what is so "underwhelming" about that? Because you can only get one of the item needed for that class so far? That's like complaining about the fact that Zapdos and Jolteon wouldn't be able to learn Thunderbolt without the TM you get from Lt. Surge in Pokémon G1, despite the fact that both of those Pokémon are among that TM's best candidates.

On 2017年2月23日 at 8:33 PM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

No, but I am someone who thinks you've been feeding me BS. 

To be honest, that's kinda what guys like me and @SpearOfLies have been feeling about you in this anti-Vantage and anti-Sol stance of yours. (Why do you even think I brought up the names SazukeEX, General Banzai, or ShockOfGod? After all, feeding people BS is what they're known for.) Not to mention, what reason would I even have to feed ANYONE BS in a discussion like this? Much of what I said can be backed up with evidence. My "have Vantage equipped on Ophelia" argument against your anti-Vantage stance for starters?

Yeah. Pray tell. What reason would I even have to want to lie about situations like what's seen in that screenshot happening?

Edited February 25, 2017 by Just call me AL

[Shadow Mir]

4 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

And during then, Sol wouldn't need to work its magic because of how few enemies there would be left in that situation. So, again, what's your point? Because I'm not sure of what you're trying to establish here.

Doesn't matter. Camilla's still facing just as much chances of facing crits as those three would have. And it's not like a stray crit would kill her outright even if it DOES happen. Have you even tried using Camilla? If so, then you should know thatwhat I'm saying is true by noHeck, you could even see the screenshots someone posted up on the FE14 Conquest tier list to get a good idea of just how often she's gonna get critted. In one of those screenshots in question, the highest Crit chance Camilla's facing is 6%. Surely THAT should tell you something about her Lck stat.

Again, it's a female-exclusive faster version of Hero that's traded Axes for Lances. Just what is so "underwhelming" about that? Because you can only get one of the item needed for that class so far? That's like complaining about the fact that Zapdos and Jolteon wouldn't be able to learn Thunderbolt without the TM you get from Lt. Surge in Pokémon G1, despite the fact that both of those Pokémon are among that TM's best candidates.

To be honest, that's kinda what guys like me and @SpearOfLies have been feeling about you in this anti-Vantage and anti-Sol stance of yours. (Why do you even think I brought up the names SazukeEX, General Banzai, or ShockOfGod? After all, feeding people BS is what they're known for.) Not to mention, what reason would I even have to feed ANYONE BS in a discussion like this? Much of what I said can be backed up with evidence. My "have Vantage equipped on Ophelia" argument against your anti-Vantage stance for starters?

Yeah. Pray tell. What reason would I even have to want to lie about situations like what's seen in that screenshot happening?

Well, given the tendency of attacks to miss more often than compared to most pre-Fates games, Sol really isn't something I'd want to rely on considering how constrained it is in terms of when it can be effective. If I was in a situation where I could only choose one weapon and couldn't switch, generally speaking, I wouldn't take the one that is only effective when X, Y, and Z are all fulfilled over the one that is good in more situations. 

From where I'm standing, wouldn't most of those FE7 characters you mentioned generally not have to worry about eating crits save for stuff like Luna users (which, to be fair, fuck over everyone with a crit), and other stuff you rarely see over the course of the game (killer weapons, swordmasters, berserkers)? From when I played FE7, most everyone I used almost never had to worry about crits outside of those enemies, even if their luck wasn't all that hot. Also, just what Conquest tier list are you talking about? Because the only one I remember was started by a user who just up and disapoofed. And if you're wondering as to whether I used Camilla: yes, I did. By the time I got into lategame, I needed Veteran Intuition because she regularly faced crit chances, and I do NOT like the prospect of having to worry about hoping I don't get screwed over by critical hits every time she sees combat - after all, I see even 1% crit as 1% too high. 

Great Lord, if you ask me, is practically a poor man's Paladin. The skills obtained from it aren't that great, either, other than maybe Charm.

Likewise, I think your dismissing Awakening being a level 35 skill as a weak argument makes me think you live in cloud-cuckoo land - realistically, excepting Felicia, Gunter and Jakob, when would you expect to get the level 15 skills? Also, whilst that screenshot might look convincing, it ain't 100%, which I'd want to see to be completely sure my run isn't going to be cut short by Murphy's Law.

Edited February 25, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[SpearOfLies]

Just now, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Also, whilst that screenshot might look convincing, it ain't 100%, which I'd want to see to be completely sure my run isn't going to be cut short by Murphy's Law.

Edited 7 minutes ago by Levant Mir Celestia

Against a unit that have something like 70 avoid and 20 luck, seems legit want get 100% *sarcasm*

Because 30% luna is clearly higher than 90% crit. *sarcasm*

I don't care to comment the rest.

[Just call me AL]

2 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Well, given the tendency of attacks to miss more often than compared to most pre-Fates games, Sol really isn't something I'd want to rely on considering how constrained it is in terms of when it can be effective. If I was in a situation where I could only choose one weapon and couldn't switch, generally speaking, I wouldn't take the one that is only effective when X, Y, and Z are all fulfilled over the one that is good in more situations. 

And something like Renewal or PavGis is? I ask this because they certainly carry greater risks with them than Sol and Vantage do. And FEs 1-5 have just as much of a tendency to missing attacks as Fates does. The only difference is that in Fates, Sol's accessible enough to provide what's essentially a durability boost to your heaviest hitters. I don't think there would be many units in FEs 4 or 5 that can carry that claim, aside from Parn and maybe Eiryos, or anyone that's used a Sol Manual.

2 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

From where I'm standing, wouldn't most of those FE7 characters you mentioned generally not have to worry about eating crits save for stuff like Luna users (which, to be fair, fuck over everyone with a crit), and other stuff you rarely see over the course of the game (killer weapons, swordmasters, berserkers)? From when I played FE7, most everyone I used almost never had to worry about crits outside of those enemies, even if their luck wasn't all that hot.

And that's my point right there for whether you have to worry about crits at all. The story in regards to that for Fates isn't really different from in FE7.

3 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Also, just what Conquest tier list are you talking about? Because the only one I remember was started by a user who just up and disapoofed.

The one by PKL, of course. It even lists Camilla as a top tier unit, for crying out loud.

3 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

And if you're wondering as to whether I used Camilla: yes, I did. By the time I got into lategame, I needed Veteran Intuition because she regularly faced crit chances, and I do NOT like the prospect of having to worry about hoping I don't get screwed over by critical hits every time she sees combat - after all, I see even 1% crit as 1% too high.

So in other words, you're basically admitting to making mountains out of molehills. Because, honestly, why would you need Veteran Intuition so much that you would consider foregoing a skill better than it just to have it on hand? It doesn't make any sense.

3 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Great Lord, if you ask me, is practically a poor man's Paladin. The skills obtained from it aren't that great, either, other than maybe Charm.

The only disadvantage it has compared to Paladin is MOV. And even then, it's certainly worth considering giving when the recipient has a workable Sword or Lance level. Also, Charm is only at its most effective when it's in the hands of someone who has other skills that can boost Atk. Like Hinoka or Camilla, for example. And Aether's pretty much an extra chance to crit for all intents and purposes, and definitely helps bolster the offense of a Luna, Astra, Rend Heaven, or Dragon Fang user. The only skill from Great Lord, to be honest, would be Dual Striker. And the reasons why should be obvious.

3 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Likewise, I think your dismissing Awakening being a level 35 skill as a weak argument makes me think you live in cloud-cuckoo land - realistically, excepting Felicia, Gunter and Jakob, when would you expect to get the level 15 skills?

"When" shouldn't really be a question. And again, Fates' reclass system doesn't reset your units' levels, which minimizes grinding for skills. And even if it was, the Awakening skill comes in when you might just need a little boost to go further. And in the case of some units (like the aforementioned Ophelia), that skill gives them that boost. Which is more than I can say for something like PavGis.

3 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Also, whilst that screenshot might look convincing, it ain't 100%, which I'd want to see to be completely sure my run isn't going to be cut short by Murphy's Law.

You know, there IS a such thing as being too careful. That kind of thinking makes you more mistate-prone than not worrying about being unable to completely eliminate any chance of error. Mistakes happen, even in the safest of strategies. A good strategist doesn't spend time worrying about "if". Instead, he has "if" already considered, covers it with contingencies, and understands the risks involved with "if". He proceeds in his strategy when "if" carries a manageable risk or there's no other option. If he makes a mistake, he makes it, and then learns from it. That's pretty much how everyone's lived. And be honest, what's life without a little risk?

[Moblin Major General]

12 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

You know, there IS a such thing as being too careful. That kind of thinking makes you more mistate-prone than not worrying about being unable to completely eliminate any chance of error. Mistakes happen, even in the safest of strategies. A good strategist doesn't spend time worrying about "if". Instead, he has "if" already considered, covers it with contingencies, and understands the risks involved with "if". He proceeds in his strategy when "if" carries a manageable risk or there's no other option. If he makes a mistake, he makes it, and then learns from it. That's pretty much how everyone's lived. And be honest, what's life without a little risk?

The main problem exists that even the most well thought out contingencies are often accounted for by the enemy AI. If you take the time to understand just where you could go wrong, the game won't be able to screw you. Granted, I'm not the best strategist/tactician, but I at least have tried some unorthodox strategies.

[Shadow Mir]

On February 25, 2017 at 6:01 PM, Just call me AL said:

And something like Renewal or PavGis is? I ask this because they certainly carry greater risks with them than Sol and Vantage do. And FEs 1-5 have just as much of a tendency to missing attacks as Fates does. The only difference is that in Fates, Sol's accessible enough to provide what's essentially a durability boost to your heaviest hitters. I don't think there would be many units in FEs 4 or 5 that can carry that claim, aside from Parn and maybe Eiryos, or anyone that's used a Sol Manual.

And that's my point right there for whether you have to worry about crits at all. The story in regards to that for Fates isn't really different from in FE7.

The one by PKL, of course. It even lists Camilla as a top tier unit, for crying out loud.

So in other words, you're basically admitting to making mountains out of molehills. Because, honestly, why would you need Veteran Intuition so much that you would consider foregoing a skill better than it just to have it on hand? It doesn't make any sense.

The only disadvantage it has compared to Paladin is MOV. And even then, it's certainly worth considering giving when the recipient has a workable Sword or Lance level. Also, Charm is only at its most effective when it's in the hands of someone who has other skills that can boost Atk. Like Hinoka or Camilla, for example. And Aether's pretty much an extra chance to crit for all intents and purposes, and definitely helps bolster the offense of a Luna, Astra, Rend Heaven, or Dragon Fang user. The only skill from Great Lord, to be honest, would be Dual Striker. And the reasons why should be obvious.

"When" shouldn't really be a question. And again, Fates' reclass system doesn't reset your units' levels, which minimizes grinding for skills. And even if it was, the Awakening skill comes in when you might just need a little boost to go further. And in the case of some units (like the aforementioned Ophelia), that skill gives them that boost. Which is more than I can say for something like PavGis.

You know, there IS a such thing as being too careful. That kind of thinking makes you more mistate-prone than not worrying about being unable to completely eliminate any chance of error. Mistakes happen, even in the safest of strategies. A good strategist doesn't spend time worrying about "if". Instead, he has "if" already considered, covers it with contingencies, and understands the risks involved with "if". He proceeds in his strategy when "if" carries a manageable risk or there's no other option. If he makes a mistake, he makes it, and then learns from it. That's pretty much how everyone's lived. And be honest, what's life without a little risk?

Renewal, yes. PavGis, not so much. Also, IMHO, trying to say Sol is comparable to Renewal is akin to trying to say Shell Bell is comparable to Leftovers. I say this because in general, I'd have trouble trying to find any time I'd use the Shell Bell over Leftovers, other than where Item Clause is concerned, and even then, I could be using something better. 

Maybe to you, but not to me - the bar for being strong in both games is night and day. Likewise, a luck stat that might be sufficient to avoid crits from mooks in one game might leave a unit crit-prone in another.

That was the same tier list I was referring to. Also, that screenshot with Camilla facing a 6% crit chance? Camilla was paired up in that one. If she wasn't, she'd need 24 luck to face the same crit chance (note that Malig Knight ties for lowest luck cap with Oni Chieftain and Berserker, and Camilla has a -2 modifier to luck). 

Because a chance to instantly have to reset, or at least take triple damage, generally isn't something I'd want to entertain, especially repeatedly over the course of a single map. Why do you think I consider Arthur one of the worst units in Fates, and Berserker one of the worst classes in said game? Also, just what skills do you consider better than Veteran Intuition?

Ignoring units I get on both BR and Conquest, that leaves, what, Effie, Selena, Soleil, and Peri? 

Well, it kind of is when most units don't have the luxury of getting the level 15 skills until late enough that their impact is fairly small overall (and Fates not resetting your levels when you reclass doesn't change that fact). Also, note that Fates is stricter on higher level units exp wise than the games that preceded it.

As I see it, it's better than tempting fate. Also, I never fail to be surprised by how nonchalant people can be about the risk of crits. All told, I'm not against trying something unorthodox.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[DoesntKnowHowToPlay]

@Levant Mir Celestia: Ever played FE12 on Lunatic? Might be an enlightening experience for you.

Also here's a short visual explanation of why I like Arthur despite the fact that he is prone to getting crit at unfortunate times.

Here's another one, which can be optimized much further with better skilling that I was too lazy to go for in a first run