Should battle fatigue come back as an optional mode?

[Dinar87]

There could be a new stat called 'Stamina' and, the more you have of this stat, the more you can use that unit for that specific battle! Would that be fun or just annoying?

Edited July 14, 2016 by Dinar87

[Azz]

No thank you.

While I enjoyed FE5, fatigue was just a nuisance most, if not all the time.

[twice]

I mean, it would be quite irritating at most times (insert me playing Touken Ranbu).. It would be a nice/interesting feature to see though! I'm down for it 100%.

[Dinar87]

So basically...don't include a fatigue system!

[Master Thunderblade]

I would welcome this with open arms. (An optional mode would work the best, although I wouldn't mind it being required) Because it encourages you to use all of your units, I think some characters get overlooked before they get a chance to prove their worth in favor of a few ones that are considered popular or are just really good. (maybe close to broken) I think managing the fatigue of your units adds another layer of strategy and I love managing my army in the most optimal way possible. (If they included this in the latest Fire Emblem, hot springs could actually have served a purpose instead of providing nothing more than fanservice in an overly cliché way. The springs could've been used to lower the fatigue of your units, in this way you could still bring one of your favorites, even when initially fatigued, so the system wouldn't be overly severe) Sure it could be annoying at times, but if Intelligent Systems manages to balance the different classes in the right way, I believe it could add to the overall strategical enjoyment of the game. The problem with Thracia 776 was the fact that magical stat was overpowered (just like in gen I pokémon, and the fact that in some chapters you would be screwed without the right staff/magical units. While other units like knights (and archers to a lesser extent) were far less useful, to the point of being almost pointless. Add to these factors an unbalanced PCC system and some units became broken and others were just meh to bad. Ergo, in order to be able to beat this brutally difficult game, you would always want to use the same group of broken characters and the fatigue system became very frustrating since you weren't able to do just that. In the newer Fire Emblem games however, almost every unit can be useful in some way due to reclassing, the support systems and other factors. If there were almost no units that were down right bad, a fatigue system would be able to make Fire Emblem games more interesting. I like the idea of picking a team depending of the situation at hand and the threats you will have to face, instead of using the same team for every chapter, simply because they are the strongest/best units you have. Will you pick a mix of your strong and a few less strong characters or will you simply not deploy the maximum amount of units allowed? Maybe you will go all in during this chapter and have to make due during the next? Maybe you should be carefull and use your best cards sparingly? All these questions make for a far more interesting experience... (At least in my opinion)

Edited July 14, 2016 by Masterthunderblade

[shadowofchaos]

I would welcome this with open arms. (An optional mode would work the best, although I wouldn't mind it being required) Because it encourages you to use all of your units, I think some characters get overlooked before they get a chance to prove their worth in favor of a few ones that are considered popular or are just really good. (maybe close to broken) I think managing the fatigue of your units adds another layer of strategy and I love managing my army in the most optimal way possible. (If they included this in the latest Fire Emblem, hot springs could actually have served a purpose instead of providing nothing more than fanservice in an overly cliché way. The springs could've been used to lower the fatigue of your units, in this way you could still bring one of your favorites, even when initially fatigued, so the system wouldn't be overly severe) Sure it could be annoying at times, but if Intelligent Systems manages to balance the different classes in the right way, I believe it could add to the overall strategical enjoyment of the game. The problem with Thracia 776 was the fact that magical stat was overpowered (just like in gen I pokémon, and the fact that in some chapters you would be screwed without the right staff/magical units. While other units like knights (and archers to a lesser extent) were far less useful, to the point of being almost pointless. Add to these factors an unbalanced PCC system and some units became broken and others were just meh to bad. Ergo, in order to be able to beat this brutally difficult game, you would want to use the same group of broken characters and the fatigue system became thus very frustrating since you weren't able to do just that. In the newer Fire Emblem games, almost every unit can be useful in some way due to reclassing, the support systems and other factors. If there were almost no units that were down right bad, a fatigue system would be able to make Fire Emblem games more interesting. (At least in my opinion)

It's removal ever since suggests that most players aren't exactly happy with how it was handled.

However, I'd be down with your points if it was optional. I liked the hot spring idea with that basis.

[Shadow Mir]

Hell to the no - fatigue renders Thracia practically unplayable to me, and I'd imagine it'd do nothing but hinder the playability of whatever other FE game it was in.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Dinar87]

Hell to the no - fatigue renders Thracia practically unplayable to me, and I'd imagine it'd do nothing but hinder the playability of whatever other FE game it was in.

Would it be ok as an optional mode or should it just stay away from FE in general?

​Never mind, I didn't realize you'd already answered that question.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Dinar87

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

fatigue wasn't a super big deal in the long run, thus it shouldn't come back.

look at it like this, if a character hit their fatigue limit mid battle, you already have to bench them next stage, so just keep using them for the rest of the stage.

it really does the opposite of what it was intended for.

also if you have enough characters dead or tired, its literally impossible to beat the game, as you can't start a stage unless you have all the character slots filled.

so yeah, good idea, bad execution.

[Dinar87]

fatigue wasn't a super big deal in the long run, thus it shouldn't come back.

look at it like this, if a character hit their fatigue limit mid battle, you already have to bench them next stage, so just keep using them for the rest of the stage.

it really does the opposite of what it was intended for.

also if you have enough characters dead or tired, its literally impossible to beat the game, as you can't start a stage unless you have all the character slots filled.

so yeah, good idea, bad execution.

What about making it so that once they reach their limit they count as dead for the rest of the battle. And maybe some characters wouldn't have limits so you could at least beat the game?

[The Draco Knight]

I would welcome this with open arms. (An optional mode would work the best, although I wouldn't mind it being required) Because it encourages you to use all of your units, I think some characters get overlooked before they get a chance to prove their worth in favor of a few ones that are considered popular or are just really good. (maybe close to broken) I think managing the fatigue of your units adds another layer of strategy and I love managing my army in the most optimal way possible. (If they included this in the latest Fire Emblem, hot springs could actually have served a purpose instead of providing nothing more than fanservice in an overly cliché way. The springs could've been used to lower the fatigue of your units, in this way you could still bring one of your favorites, even when initially fatigued, so the system wouldn't be overly severe) Sure it could be annoying at times, but if Intelligent Systems manages to balance the different classes in the right way, I believe it could add to the overall strategical enjoyment of the game. The problem with Thracia 776 was the fact that magical stat was overpowered (just like in gen I pokémon, and the fact that in some chapters you would be screwed without the right staff/magical units. While other units like knights (and archers to a lesser extent) were far less useful, to the point of being almost pointless. Add to these factors an unbalanced PCC system and some units became broken and others were just meh to bad. Ergo, in order to be able to beat this brutally difficult game, you would always want to use the same group of broken characters and the fatigue system became very frustrating since you weren't able to do just that. In the newer Fire Emblem games however, almost every unit can be useful in some way due to reclassing, the support systems and other factors. If there were almost no units that were down right bad, a fatigue system would be able to make Fire Emblem games more interesting. I like the idea of picking a team depending of the situation at hand and the threats you will have to face, instead of using the same team for every chapter, simply because they are the strongest/best units you have. Will you pick a mix of your strong and a few less strong characters or will you simply not deploy the maximum amount of units allowed? Maybe you will go all in during this chapter and have to make due during the next? Maybe you should be carefull and use your best cards sparingly? All these questions make for a far more interesting experience... (At least in my opinion)

I agree, but I also think that, if Fatigue returns, the stats cap. should return to be 20, since, for me, the fatigue was really manageable thanks to the 20 cap. and the fact that the enemies didn't have high stats even in the Lategame, aside from the bosses.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

I agree, but I also think that, if Fatigue returns, the stats cap. should return to be 20, since, for me, the fatigue was really manageable thanks to the 20 cap. and the fact that the enemies didn't have high stats even in the Lategame, aside from the bosses.

yeah stat inflation would make fatigue these days, unbearable.

What about making it so that once they reach their limit they count as dead for the rest of the battle. And maybe some characters wouldn't have limits so you could at least beat the game?

the only character that didn't have this limit was the main lord, and he was balanced by being rather weak, but reliable, also having a nice light sword.

but yeah, having more then just the lord not having these limits would make these people far better then the rest, to the point of being must use and destroying replay value yet again, but in a different way this time.

fatigue just limits who you wanna use, which i view as terrible as everyone should be allowed to use whoever they want of the cast, even if they are totally bad or game breaking.

[Lethakitty]

I would like it more in a FE like radiant dawn where there are multiple sides though. mainly because of the whole concept of main lords. or give the main lords a bullshit plot device so they don't get fatigued. I never played FE 5 though. Honestly in a game with fatigue have it so when they reach fatigue your characters move gets reduced to 1 and they do half damage. for like 1 or 2 turns. Fatigue already seems like a bullshit concept that can become a big killjoy to me anyways

[Dinar87]

I think the consensus is pretty clear...DON'T INCLUDE A FATIGUE MODE AS IT LIMITS REPLAY-ABILITY!

Oops, should've worded that better! It seems that, unless this fatigue mode is heavily changed, barely anyone wants to play it.

I still think it should be an option for those who want it. Here's how it'd work...

Entering battles themselves costs 1 point.
Energy spent using a item depends on it's rank e.g. Bronze sword (E rank) requires one point of energy to use whereas an S rank weapon requires 6 points.
Special staves would be added to heal fatigue.
Any unit over their fatigue limit gets all their stats reduced by half.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Dinar87

[Enaluxeme]

I like the concept of fatigue. It just need to be implemented right. Having fatigued characters lose some stats instead of making them completely undeployable seems like a great idea. Characters also need to be able to get overly fatigued AND recover fatigue during battles (if you reach the fatigue cap you get the malus at the start of the next turn, if you do nothing during your turn you recover some fatigue)

[___]

I would like to see this as an optional mode. Yes, game completion may be affected, so that needs to be handled carefully, but I would be interested.

[Paper Jam]

I believe that the whole point of battle fatigue was to make sure that you don't use the same character in too many battles, and there are other (and imho better) ways to do that.

For example, penalties to experience for using a disproportionately high-level unit. I think that between that and their Experience ranking system, the FE6 and 7 Hard modes did this particularly well.

FE8 didn't, of course. But adding battle fatigue to that game would just annoy those who enjoy soloing the game with Seth and do absolutely nothing for those who don't; as an option, it wouldn't be used by anybody.

That said, given the reintroduction of older features in Fates like indestructible weapons from 2 and the Capture mechanic from 5, I wouldn't be surprised if IS at least considered bringing back others such as fatigue.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Paper Jam

[Dinar87]

I believe that the whole point of battle fatigue was to make sure that you don't use the same character in too many battles, and there are other (and imho better) ways to do that.

For example, penalties to experience for using a disproportionately high-level unit. I think that between that and their Experience ranking system, the FE6 and 7 Hard modes did this particularly well.

FE8 didn't, of course. But adding battle fatigue to that game would just annoy those who enjoy soloing the game with Seth and do absolutely nothing for those who don't; as an option, it wouldn't be used by anybody.

That said, given the reintroduction of older features in Fates like indestructible weapons from 2 and the Capture mechanic from 5, I wouldn't be surprised if IS at least considered bringing back others such as fatigue.

In other words, there's already a better system that accomplishes what the fatigue system would've done. The fatigue system would've prevented using only a few select units but the lowered exp gains they receive by being much higher levelled than the others already does that. So in the end, a fatigue system would be useless.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Dinar87

[NoNameAtAll]

If fatigue's optional, don't bother including it. It's a waste of time otherwise because it won't be designed around the fatigue.

Go big or go home, that's my thought.

[Lord Tullus]

Like I heard MageKnight 404 say, I think that if fatigue returns, it should be a penalty to a unit's stats, rather than forcing them to sit out. It defeats the "Fatigue" part of it, but it nudges you to change characters, rather than forcing. Maybe the stat reduction stays until they are not deployed?

Does this seam like a bad Idea? Because while I liked the fatugue as a concept, the way it was brought to being was kinda anoying. Like how I can't bring asvel to a chapter full of fliers just because he faught in 30 battles or more last map/healed with a physic staff.

[Dinar87]

Like I heard MageKnight 404 say, I think that if fatigue returns, it should be a penalty to a unit's stats, rather than forcing them to sit out. It defeats the "Fatigue" part of it, but it nudges you to change characters, rather than forcing. Maybe the stat reduction stays until they are not deployed?

Does this seam like a bad Idea? Because while I liked the fatugue as a concept, the way it was brought to being was kinda anoying. Like how I can't bring asvel to a chapter full of fliers just because he faught in 30 battles or more last map/healed with a physic staff.

Well with the way fatigue would work in my game (that is IF I put it in) it could be healed off with, well, healers! That way, if you want to keep using a character no matter what, you have to make sure they get healed every once in a while.

​However, someone else brought up a good point-there's already a better system for making sure people don't just use the strongest characters all the time...it's called receiving barely any exp and jagen growths for characters like Marcus in FE6.

[Enaluxeme]

Jagen growths make characters unusable. Little exp is not a concern when you always use the same 10ish characters (they can gain exp slowly but they'll still hit level 20/20 well before the last chapter)

If you want to make sure people use ALL of their characters, you need to make sure everyone is usable and you have to add fatigue. If you want to add fatigue it has to be mandatory because you need to balance the game accordingly.

[Dinar87]

Jagen growths make characters unusable. Little exp is not a concern when you always use the same 10ish characters (they can gain exp slowly but they'll still hit level 20/20 well before the last chapter)

If you want to make sure people use ALL of their characters, you need to make sure everyone is usable and you have to add fatigue. If you want to add fatigue it has to be mandatory because you need to balance the game accordingly.

I see no problem with people using around 10-13 characters in a single play through so I won't punish players for using certain groups of characters over others. I'd make it so every character of every class has their own strengths and weaknesses. What does need to be addressed is making it so that using jagen characters has consequences (such as very low growth rates). They're really meant to be used to help you if you ever get stuck in the early game...not carry you throughout the whole game effortlessly like Seth.

As for whether to include fatigue or not...a lot of people have said it'd be really annoying soooooooooooo....

Edited July 15, 2016 by Dinar87

[Jotari]

I like fatigue but I don't particularly like the idea of it being a mode. For fatigue to work the game needs to be designed around it. I suppose you could design the game around the idea and then have a non fatigue mode but then that just makes it seem like a massive waste of effort rather than a simple and beneficial addition that most modes come across as.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Jotari

[Dinar87]

I like fatigue but I don't particularly like the idea of it being a mode. For fatigue to work the game needs to be designed around it. I suppose you could design the game around the idea and then have a non fatigue mode but then that just makes it seem like a massive waste of effort rather than an simple and beneficial addition that most modes come across as.

In other words, those who do want this to be a thing want it to be integrated into the main game instead of being an optional mode. The only problem with this is that there's also plenty of people who hate the sound of a fatigue mode so basically...

1. If I include it as an option, and balance the game around it beforehand, people will complain that the game's too easy and can be easily broken by simply turning the mode off. I'm screwed.

2. If I make it required, people will complain how annoying it is and could potentially turn off customers. I'm screwed.

3. If I don't include the mode at all, those who wanted a mode like this will complain. I'm screwed.

Since I'm going to disappoint people no matter what I do I'm not going to have a fatigue mode anymore. As others have said, while it could increase immersion (and potentially be fun), many have said it'd just annoy them if it was in. Because of this, I won't be including it in the game.