Camilla is Insane + More?

[Thane]

Also, Tharja is literally a worse person than Camilla. How can you even argue that?!

Tharja gets upset when she can't save innocent people, Camilla is fine with conquering entire countries and, after a fight, surrounded by blood and gore, hit on the defeated enemy commander.

[DragonFlames]

Tbf I dont like Takumi much either. Most of his supports annoy me but at least he's not as creepy as her.

Yup, agreed.

[PuffPuff]

Ouch... I guess my bad chosed words betrayed me once more.

I know she doesn't die in the story unfortunately;

I just meant defeating her as a boss.

It angers me even more that the two characters of Nohr die I actually like the most.

I mean who wants to see Elise dying, the sibling of Nohr's royality who turns her back on the plans of her father first?

More than anything...

1:52:33-End

This was all referred to the story of FF7 Aeris. She walks in the Nohrian slums with a flower picnic basket while you even do a chapter in the slums that would be of going under the sewers of Midgar.

Edited July 18, 2016 by PuffPuff

[UNLEASH IT]

Tharja gets upset when she can't save innocent people, Camilla is fine with conquering entire countries and, after a fight, surrounded by blood and gore, hit on the defeated enemy commander.

I'm not really too fond of Camilla myself but I'm going to have to disagree with you here, for a few reasons:

• Tharja is solely at fault for Noire's split personality, due to using her as a guinea pig for her curses. This is basically child abuse.
• Tharja is quite cold and abrasive to almost all of her allies that's not Robin, even threatening to curse them if they get in her way. Camilla at the very least has the decency to be pleasant to those on her side and is especially close to all of her siblings and retainers.

Now, you're entitled to your opinion because honestly both of them are pretty fucked in the head, but this post seems like cherrypicking on your part. Which isn't something I expect from you.

Edited July 18, 2016 by Chad Thundercock

[Thane]

I'm not really too fond of Camilla myself but I'm going to have to disagree with you here, for a few reasons:

• Tharja is solely at fault for Noire's split personality, due to using her as a guinea pig for her curses. This is basically child abuse.
• Tharja is quite cold and abrasive to almost all of her allies that's not Robin, even threatening to curse them if they get in her way. Camilla at the very least has the decency to be pleasant to those on her side and is especially close to all of her siblings and retainers.

Now, you're entitled to your opinion because honestly both of them are pretty fucked in the head, but this post seems like cherrypicking on your part. Which isn't something I expect from you.

I have no real love for Tharja either, but you're comparing someone with a genuinely good heart as pointed out in several supports to someone who is okay with massacring innocents. Camilla "being close" to someone is also arguably not portrayed as being a good thing - she infantilizes Takumi, threatens Severa and freaks out Corrin.

I'm not cherry-picking anything, I just think Tharja messing up raising Noire and being cold towards people is not as bad as being okay with murdering people.

Edited July 18, 2016 by Thane

[Lightchao42]

I have no real love for Tharja either, but you're comparing someone with a genuinely good heart as pointed out in several supports to someone who is okay with massacring innocents. Camilla "being close" to someone is also arguably not portrayed as being a good thing - she infantilizes Takumi, threatens Severa and freaks out Corrin.

I'm not cherry-picking anything, I just think Tharja messing up raising Noire and being cold towards people is not as bad as being okay with murdering people.

But Camilla clearly isn't happy about killing innocents or what Garon is doing:

[spoiler=Conquest Chapter 13]

Camilla: ... This is a truly horrid sight to behold, my darling brother/sister. I wish things could be different.

Corrin: Camilla...

Camilla: I'm sorry, but I just found out the injured Hoshidan soldiers have already been killed. And that rebel... what was her name... Scarlet? Yes, the poor thing. They killed her in such a way... Well, they clearly meant to make an example of her.

Corrin: Gods, no... but Scarlet would have listened to us if we had just talked things out. Now we'll never have that chance... Why, Camilla? Who wants to live in a world where precious life is destroyed on a whim? Is this the world Father is building? Is this what I've been fighting for?

Camilla: ...

Corrin: I don't understand. I can never understand. How could Father do this? Where is the justice? The respect for life? The common decency?! Tell me, Camilla...

Camilla: Corrin... I know you're upset, but we need to report back to Father. He'll be angry if we keep him waiting. I'll summon a messenger.

Corrin: Camilla! How can you be so calm at a time like this?

Camilla: I'm sorry, Corrin. I don't have the answers you're looking for. I don't know why Father makes some of the decisions he makes. I never have. I do know that even as his blood kin, he wouldn't hesitate to kill me if I disobeyed. If you value your life, as I do... bury your feelings, at least for now. I know it's hard to do that while looking around at what's happening here... But I'm afraid it's your only option. If you'll excuse me, I must hurry.

Corrin: Camilla... I'm sorry, but I can't do that. I can't accept that this is the Nohrian way. Something must be done...

The only reason that Camilla goes along with the war against Hoshido is that Garon's general philosophy as a ruler is "do what I say OR DIE" and Camilla knows that getting herself killed wouldn't really accomplish anything.

Anyway, concerning the actual topic, being a key player in the Concubine Wars has definitely left Camilla violently protective over her remaining siblings, so much so that her psyche and morality are completely warped around their wellbeing. Consequently, Camilla thinks that killing anyone who opposes Corrin is perfectly reasonable because her siblings are essentially her entire universe. Tharja, while not actually evil, is mostly just selfish and creepy. She knows when she's doing something wrong, but doesn't care. Camilla, on the other hand, fails to recognize that she's doing anything immoral as long as it appeals to her goal of protecting her family and friends.

Edited July 18, 2016 by Lightchao42

[kcirrot]

I'm referring more to the choice scene itself. Compare Corrin's actions in Birthright at the choice scene to Conquest. He gives noticeably less fucks about the Nohrian siblings in the scene than he does about the Hoshidan siblings in Birthrout. Based off Camilla's Birthrout actions, this CLEARLY had a massive negative impact on her

That's not surprising. In the previous couple of chapters:

1) You find out you were kidnapped as a child;

2) The kidnapper is the abusive "father" who kept you locked up as a child;

3) The natural children of said kidnapper seem to be all in on his abuses;

4) Said kidnapper used you to kill multiple people and would have killed you if not for your birth mother sacrificing her life for you;

5) As a result of the above, you nearly lost your mind in grief which awakened your draconic powers.

I can tell you siblings or not, I would give exactly -5 fucks about 'betraying' Nohr. Negative number meaning that I would happily do so and make no apologies. This is also why the choice to go Nohr in Conquest is patently ridiculous.

Edited July 18, 2016 by kcirrot

[Thane]

But Camilla clearly isn't happy about killing innocents or what Garon is doing:

[spoiler=Conquest Chapter 13]

Camilla: ... This is a truly horrid sight to behold, my darling brother/sister. I wish things could be different.

Corrin: Camilla...

Camilla: I'm sorry, but I just found out the injured Hoshidan soldiers have already been killed. And that rebel... what was her name... Scarlet? Yes, the poor thing. They killed her in such a way... Well, they clearly meant to make an example of her.

Corrin: Gods, no... but Scarlet would have listened to us if we had just talked things out. Now we'll never have that chance... Why, Camilla? Who wants to live in a world where precious life is destroyed on a whim? Is this the world Father is building? Is this what I've been fighting for?

Camilla: ...

Corrin: I don't understand. I can never understand. How could Father do this? Where is the justice? The respect for life? The common decency?! Tell me, Camilla...

Camilla: Corrin... I know you're upset, but we need to report back to Father. He'll be angry if we keep him waiting. I'll summon a messenger.

Corrin: Camilla! How can you be so calm at a time like this?

Camilla: I'm sorry, Corrin. I don't have the answers you're looking for. I don't know why Father makes some of the decisions he makes. I never have. I do know that even as his blood kin, he wouldn't hesitate to kill me if I disobeyed. If you value your life, as I do... bury your feelings, at least for now. I know it's hard to do that while looking around at what's happening here... But I'm afraid it's your only option. If you'll excuse me, I must hurry.

Corrin: Camilla... I'm sorry, but I can't do that. I can't accept that this is the Nohrian way. Something must be done...

The only reason that Camilla goes along with the war against Hoshido is that Garon's general philosophy as a ruler is "do what I say OR DIE" and Camilla knows that getting herself killed wouldn't really accomplish anything.

Anyway, concerning the actual topic, being a key player in the Concubine Wars has definitely left Camilla violently protective over her remaining siblings, so much so that her psyche and morality are completely warped around their wellbeing. Consequently, Camilla thinks that killing anyone who opposes Corrin is perfectly reasonable because her siblings are essentially her entire universe. Tharja, while not actually evil, is mostly just selfish and creepy. She knows when she's doing something wrong, but doesn't care. Camilla, on the other hand, fails to recognize that she's doing anything immoral as long as it appeals to her goal of protecting her family and friends.

She clearly doesn't mind invading Hoshido - just how far does this "protect your family" go until we can classify her as a bad person? What, her turning a blind eye to Hans slaughtering everyone in a village is okay as long as she seems sad? I'd also like to remind you of what Leo said about the siblings pretending to obey following Garon's orders, so clearly they are used to defying his orders. Hell, just look at Corrin in the first chapter; it's pretty much the only example of someone having a spine in this entire game.

Again, her supports don't paint her in a very good light either. Her having a rough childhood does not excuse her behavior.

[Water Mage]

I have no real love for Tharja either, but you're comparing someone with a genuinely good heart as pointed out in several supports to someone who is okay with massacring innocents. Camilla "being close" to someone is also arguably not portrayed as being a good thing - she infantilizes Takumi, threatens Severa and freaks out Corrin.

I'm not cherry-picking anything, I just think Tharja messing up raising Noire and being cold towards people is not as bad as being okay with murdering people.

I think I get what you mean.

While Tharja is no saint, she does come across as better person than Camilla.

For example, she goes out of her way to help people, as it was showed in her support with Virion, she cares about her family, shown in her support with Kellam.

She listen to the past of other without judging them, like in her support with Libra, Gregor and Lon'qu. In particular, she honestly sorry and sympathetic when she hears Lon'qu's past. And she tries to cheer up Nowi after finding out Nowi's parents are dead.

What I mean is, that again while Tharja is no saint, she has a lot of traits that humanize her.

Camilla lacks that. She lacks those little moments that makes her more human.

Edited July 18, 2016 by Water Mage

[Thane]

I think I get what you mean.

While Tharja is no saint, she does come across as better person than Camilla.

For example, she goes out of her way to help people, as it was showed in her support with Virion, she cares about her family, shown in her support with Kellam.

She listen to the past of other without judging them, like in her support with Libra, Gregor and Lon'qu. In particular, she honestly sorry and sympathetic when she hears Lon'qu's past. And she tries to cheer up Nowi after finding out Nowi's parents are dead.

What I mean is, that again while Tharja is no saint, she has a lot of traits that humanize her.

Camilla lacks that. She lacks those little moments that makes her more human.

Pretty much.

Sorry if I didn't make a lot of sense, I was playing Dota.

[Slyfox]

I haven't unlocked all of Camilla's supports yet, so my arguments may not be as solid as I would like, but I stand by my point. Although I think I've unlocked enough of them to have a good idea.

The only reason Tharja has those humanizing moments is because she is a terrible person 90% of the time. Thus those moments really stand out. If she cares about her allies and loved ones more than Camilla, why does she essentially torture them anyway, which is something Camilla doesn't do to her friends AND enemies? (I get the impression Camilla just kills her enemies, she doesn't make them suffer). Heck, the Noire/Father support shows that Tharja STILL abuses even her closest loved ones.

Lastly, we don't see Tharja decimating enemies without a care because she isn't a main character. I would need really solid evidence to believe she is any different than Camilla on the battlefield.

They both are bad people, but I see Tharja as the one with very few redeeming qualities.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

I haven't unlocked all of Camilla's supports yet, so my arguments may not be as solid as I would like, but I stand by my point. Although I think I've unlocked enough of them to have a good idea.

The only reason Tharja has those humanizing moments is because she is a terrible person 90% of the time. Thus those moments really stand out. If she cares about her allies and loved ones more than Camilla, why does she essentially torture them anyway, which is something Camilla doesn't do to her friends AND enemies? (I get the impression Camilla just kills her enemies, she doesn't make them suffer). Heck, the Noire/Father support shows that Tharja STILL abuses even her closest loved ones.

Lastly, we don't see Tharja decimating enemies without a care because she isn't a main character. I would need really solid evidence to believe she is any different than Camilla on the battlefield.

They both are bad people, but I see Tharja as the one with very few redeeming qualities.

yeah i get ya, something about spousal and child abuse rubs me the wrong way alot more then "yandare big sister"

i mean looking at marriage i can atleast feel like she won't abuse me for shits and giggles.

atleast she only wants to kill me when i decide to take anything other then the best route, which i'd don't blame her (this is kinda a joke).

EDIT: inb4 someone says that her abusive supports don't actually exist in the game or something.

Edited July 18, 2016 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[interconnecteddream]

I haven't even played Fates yet, so I know I don't have much right to talk about Camilla in tons of depth, but maybe this can be taken from more of an outsider's perspective? I have seen some of her supports and I know her backstory and personality quirks.

• I think her extreme overprotectiveness of her siblings makes sense. Several others have already made points about how they're all she has left, given how the Nohrian court works. Then again, "making sense" doesn't necessarily equate to "morally sound". But is it odd that despite all of that, I still like her? Maybe I've just a soft spot for characters I want to comfort. I just want to give her a hug and tell her she'll be okay!
• I do wish so much of her personality wasn't based around her absolutely smothering attitude towards Corrin. It's obviously player worship and added fanservice, but I just feel like she could be so much better if she wasn't so obviously made to pander to the players. It sounds harsh, but I get the feeling she can't stand on her own much without that obsession with Corrin.
• I find some of her lines especially creepy; her comments towards Selena come to mind, and also in the Japanese skinship lines, she says she'd kill Corrin and then herself if he were to ever leave her. I like her, but I definitely wouldn't marry her in a male file, sheesh!
• I think the similarities between Camilla and Tharja mostly involve the fact that they're kind of inverse personalities? Camilla appears openly gentle and doting on the outside but has alarmingly possessive attachments to those around her and very... questionable morals. And while Tharja is visibly jaded and every shade of dark and creepy in the book, she does manage to show some sympathy and kindness to certain people other than Robin. I wouldn't necessarily say one is better than the other. They're still both willing to go to extreme lengths to make sure the object of their affections is safe. And theirs.
• In terms of parenting, I do think Camilla would be a better mother figure, since that's just a natural part of her personality. (And the whole thing with Noire having her split personality as a result of Tharja's curse-testing has been mentioned enough at this point.) Camilla seems like an obvious choice for the Better Mom award, but thinking logically about it... would you want that sweet little Kana to be raised by a woman who has no qualms with killing anyone who could be seen as a possible threat, and generally has very... flexible morals? Maybe the Better Mom contest is a tie at this point...
• please save camilla's armor who thought that was a good idea,

ALMOST IMMEDIATE EDIT: I have no idea if Camilla could actually be labelled as "insane" but I do think a personality disorder is in there somewhere. She's definitely not morally sound, if that's anything to go by.

Edited July 19, 2016 by interconnecteddream

[Thane]

I think her extreme overprotectiveness of her siblings makes sense. Several others have already made points about how they're all she has left, given how the Nohrian court works. Then again, "making sense" doesn't necessarily equate to "morally sound". But is it odd that despite all of that, I still like her? Maybe I've just a soft spot for characters I want to comfort. I just want to give her a hug and tell her she'll be okay!

First of all, just how much do we know about her past? As far as I know she briefly mentions it in a support with Niles and in a conversation with Azura in the festival DLC, but what else is there? I don't mean to sound aggressive with these questions, I'm genuinely curious since people love throwing around her past as an excuse but I want to know how much we actually know about it.

Secondly, "making sense" does not excuse her actions or behavior. You know what doesn't make sense? The Nohrian family being okay with how she behaves.

I think the similarities between Camilla and Tharja mostly involve the fact that they're kind of inverse personalities? Camilla appears openly gentle and doting on the outside but has alarmingly possessive attachments to those around her and very... questionable morals. And while Tharja is visibly jaded and every shade of dark and creepy in the book, she does manage to show some sympathy and kindness to certain people other than Robin. I wouldn't necessarily say one is better than the other. They're still both willing to go to extreme lengths to make sure the object of their affections is safe. And theirs.

I just don't understand the comparisons to Tharja. I'm not even a fan of her but come on, her whole brooding attitude always seems to be just her way of distancing herself; she's a good person on the inside but has a creepy exterior, which is the exact opposite of Camilla. Water Mage said it best:

I think I get what you mean.

While Tharja is no saint, she does come across as better person than Camilla.

For example, she goes out of her way to help people, as it was showed in her support with Virion, she cares about her family, shown in her support with Kellam.

She listen to the past of other without judging them, like in her support with Libra, Gregor and Lon'qu. In particular, she honestly sorry and sympathetic when she hears Lon'qu's past. And she tries to cheer up Nowi after finding out Nowi's parents are dead.

What I mean is, that again while Tharja is no saint, she has a lot of traits that humanize her.

Camilla lacks that. She lacks those little moments that makes her more human.

In a lot of her supports, she dedicates time and effort to help people, and in Vaike's support she's shaken up over not having saved innocent people. How does Camilla act in her supports? Like I said earlier, she infantilizes Takumi, threatens Severa and pesters Corrin. and simply doesn't listen to them when they are incredibly uncomfortable. In the main story, she turns a blind eye to Hans' slaughter and goes along the invasion of Hoshido without complaint - people might start talking about not being able to betray Garon, but like Leo said, they've turned pretending to obey his orders into "an artform" or whatever it was. Oh, and she does betray him in Revelation anyway, switching sides in the same chapter she appears.

In terms of parenting, I do think Camilla would be a better mother figure, since that's just a natural part of her personality. (And the whole thing with Noire having her split personality as a result of Tharja's curse-testing has been mentioned enough at this point.) Camilla seems like an obvious choice for the Better Mom award, but thinking logically about it... would you want that sweet little Kana to be raised by a woman who has no qualms with killing anyone who could be seen as a possible threat, and generally has very... flexible morals? Maybe the Better Mom contest is a tie at this point...

I'm not defending Tharja on this one, but Camilla is anything but a mother figure. She's an unstable, selfish person who projects all of her problems onto other people, which is exactly what a parent shouldn't do.

Some people have tried saying that he's a mother figure to Corrin, but what mother figure keeps trying to bone her child?

[warchiefwilliams]

Some people have tried saying that he's a mother figure to Corrin, but what mother figure keeps trying to bone her child?

Certain power-hungry/insane characters from A Song of Ice and Fire?

I suppose that, at the end of the day, I think that in a more character focused game, Camilla (and to a similar extent, Tharja since we brought her up) would have been given time to develop into something besides the yandere big sister. Something to truly explore all of her issues and to help her develop past that. Alas, this is Fire Emblem, not Shin Megami Tensei or Persona....

You know what doesn't make sense? The Nohrian family being okay with how she behaves.

If they tolerate Peri killing half of Windmire Castle's staff every month or so (another elephant that needs to be addressed) then they likely tolerate Camilla doing her thing. Honestly, I don't know why the Nohrian royals tolerate half the crap that they do.

[Thane]

Certain power-hungry/insane characters from A Song of Ice and Fire?

I suppose that, at the end of the day, I think that in a more character focused game, Camilla (and to a similar extent, Tharja since we brought her up) would have been given time to develop into something besides the yandere big sister. Something to truly explore all of her issues and to help her develop past that. Alas, this is Fire Emblem, not Shin Megami Tensei or Persona....

Of course, but the discussion here is about what we currently have, not what could've been. The fact that they made eight siblings plus Azura without being able to balance them properly was a bad decision from the onset, and it shows in the writing. I always say that people are free to enjoy whatever they want, but I simply don't understand people's love for Camilla (or Xander, for that matter).

If they tolerate Peri killing half of Windmire Castle's staff every month or so (another elephant that needs to be addressed) then they likely tolerate Camilla doing her thing. Honestly, I don't know why the Nohrian royals tolerate half the crap that they do.

Sure, we could sit here all day and discuss the things that don't make sense in the game, but that doesn't make their acceptance of Camilla acting the way she does any less awkward. I'm always willing to harp on Xander being a dipshit in the main story, but it's not relevant to the discussion at hand.

[saisymbolic]

I mean, yeah, we can only talk about what we were given but, let's be honest, we've been talking about what we've been given since the game has come out. We know all the flaws of the game and characters; we have talked about it to the point where there is little else to talk about in regards to it. From that, we talk about the next best thing: what could have been.

People like Camilla for whatever reason. Yes, she kills innocents. Yes, she is obsessive and possessive to the extent of insanity and it is played as more of an endearing trait instead of the mental and psychological issue that it truly is. Yes, she has the ability to marry the younger brother that she has mothered since he was young. But, despite not being as serious or well-written as she could have been, I like Camilla because I like the attempt they made with her.

It may be a stupid reason but it's my reason. So, yeah. *shrug*

[Azure Sen]

yeah i get ya, something about spousal and child abuse rubs me the wrong way alot more then "yandare big sister"

i mean looking at marriage i can atleast feel like she won't abuse me for shits and giggles.

atleast she only wants to kill me when i decide to take anything other then the best route, which i'd don't blame her (this is kinda a joke).

The difference between Tharja and Camilla is that Tharja actually realizes what she's doing is wrong and stops in some of her supports. The one time the game addresses Camilla's smothering, pseudo-incestuous behavior in the Camilla/Corrin supports, Corrin is made out to be the bad guy because she's hurting Camilla's feelings by being sick and tired of Camilla's infantilizing condescension, and Camilla's violent obsession with Corrin is straight-up never addressed.

First of all, just how much do we know about her past? As far as I know she briefly mentions it in a support with Niles and in a conversation with Azura in the festival DLC, but what else is there? I don't mean to sound aggressive with these questions, I'm genuinely curious since people love throwing around her past as an excuse but I want to know how much we actually know about it.

Those two conversations and Leo and Elise's supports are all we have. Most of what people accept as being part of Camilla's past (like the fact that she's previously had to kill other half-siblings) is purely speculation and fanon that sounds plausible enough and so people accept it as canon.

Secondly, "making sense" does not excuse her actions or behavior. You know what doesn't make sense? The Nohrian family being okay with how she behaves.

Oh no, it makes perfect sense: the Nohr siblings are a bunch of morally bankrupt hypocrites who easily condemn the bad behaviors of others without recognizing it in themselves. This is especially apparent when you compare their actions to those of Kotaro and Zola, and how the narrative treats them. They've already proven that they won't stick their necks out to help people if it might endanger them, why is it surprising that they don't care that Camilla is how she is as long as it doesn't affect them?

Edited July 20, 2016 by AzureSen

[Slyfox]

Kotaro is a scumbag through and through. A smart one though and I don't see why Nohr wouldn't keep Mokushu as allies.

And yeah, the entire game, all three routes, treat Zola like utter crap. He decides that ending the war without bloodshed, or at worst, only killing the royals is the best way to secure victory. He almost succeeds, but in Conquest, Nohr decides that killing innocents is more honorable?!?! Then Leo pulls the same crap again in Revelation?! At least in Birthright I thought they treated him well enough until he received the all-too-typical "traitorous coward's death"...

Anyway, to paraphrase Dr Emily Grey from Red vs Blue: "Terrible writing for everyone!"

[Azure Sen]

Kotaro is a scumbag through and through. A smart one though and I don't see why Nohr wouldn't keep Mokushu as allies.

The worst part is that Kotaro, much like Zola, had a much smarter and less bloody plan to end the war (use Kagero as leverage to get Hoshido to surrender), but because Team Conquest is a bunch of idiots, they decide that's somehow more morally wrong than a bloody invasion that will leave countless innocents dead and team up with the enemy (Saizo) to kill their ally.

[Sunwoo]

I honestly fail to see any narrative evidence that suggests that Nohr is honorable, aside from the word of the Nohrian siblings. The playable cast of Nohr may as well be the only decent people who work under the king in Nohr. Kotaro and Zola may have used trickery and dishonorable means, but had either of their plans succeeded the war would've ended a lot sooner and with far less bloodshed than whatever the hell Corrin was doing.

One could argue that Corrin is worse than both Kotaro and Zola, preaching peace and saving lives while taking the path that will cost the most lives. I'm not just talking about Hoshidan lives here, either. They killed Zola's troops (which doesn't make sense, why would they fight for Zola when their crown prince is saying stop), Kotaro and his ninjas, and I'm sure there were casualties on the Nohr side from warring against Hoshido past chapter 18.

[Thane]

The difference between Tharja and Camilla is that Tharja actually realizes what she's doing is wrong and stops in some of her supports. The one time the game addresses Camilla's smothering, pseudo-incestuous behavior in the Camilla/Corrin supports, Corrin is made out to be the bad guy because she's hurting Camilla's feelings by being sick and tired of Camilla's infantilizing condescension, and Camilla's violent obsession with Corrin is straight-up never addressed.

I'm constantly reminded of how much better everyone is at debating than I am.

Honestly I'm wondering if the writing is so bizarre in part because of what Miyazaki said about the anime industry: people don't observe or communicate enough with others to make credible portrayals of how characters in their work should act. I'm sure there are numerous reasons as to why the dialogue in this game is so bad (or in many cases, non-existent where there should be something), but the fact that so many characters act incredibly stupid and unrealistically makes me wonder if it's just because they don't know how to write normal human reactions. That might be overly harsh, and I've got no proof for that being the case, but it's not a good impression to get.

Oh, and don't misunderstand me, I'm fully aware we're dealing with a fantasy world and anime characters, but that doesn't explain the utter lack of logic in some characters' actions, like AzureSen mentioned with Corrin apologizing to Camilla, or Hinoka wanting to side with Corrin after invading Hoshido and kicking the crap out of her.

Oh no, it makes perfect sense: the Nohr siblings are a bunch of morally bankrupt hypocrites who easily condemn the bad behaviors of others without recognizing it in themselves. This is especially apparent when you compare their actions to those of Kotaro and Zola, and how the narrative treats them. They've already proven that they won't stick their necks out to help people if it might endanger them, why is it surprising that they don't care that Camilla is how she is as long as it doesn't affect them?

I agree that they're morally bankrupt, but seeing as they only care about each other is exactly why they'd react to Camilla acting so strangely. Their family is like the only thing they care about, the rest of the world can burn for all they care.

You know, I seem to remember Radiant Dawn treating characters like the Nohrian family like hypocritical cowards only interested in saving their own skin; I wonder what happened to that mentality. Case in point:

Sanaki: Hetzel... I had thought that you alone might be above Lekain's foul conspiracy! It saddens me to see you at his side.

Hetzel: N-no, Apostle Sanaki! I--

Sanaki: I didn't ask for excuses! You fight alongside Lekain. That's more proof than I'll ever need.

Hetzel: ...You are right I fight with him. I had no choice. But...please, understand that I've always done my best to honor and respect Your Majesty.

Sanaki: Then how do you explain my confinement in Mainal Cathedral?

Hetzel: I-I didn't do anything! It was all Lekain! I didn't know anything about it, and only heard later...

Sanaki: And when you did hear of it, why didn't you stop it?

Hetzel: I...couldn't. Actually, I could have, but I didn't say anything. It was the same with Misaha, and the Serenes Massacre... I...

Sanaki: ...Didn't say anything. In other words, you stood by as my grandmother and Serenes people were killed!

Hetzel: P-please forgive me...

[DragonFlames]

Oh no, it makes perfect sense: the Nohr siblings are a bunch of morally bankrupt hypocrites who easily condemn the bad behaviors of others without recognizing it in themselves. This is especially apparent when you compare their actions to those of Kotaro and Zola, and how the narrative treats them. They've already proven that they won't stick their necks out to help people if it might endanger them, why is it surprising that they don't care that Camilla is how she is as long as it doesn't affect them?

Kotaro is a scumbag through and through. A smart one though and I don't see why Nohr wouldn't keep Mokushu as allies.

And yeah, the entire game, all three routes, treat Zola like utter crap. He decides that ending the war without bloodshed, or at worst, only killing the royals is the best way to secure victory. He almost succeeds, but in Conquest, Nohr decides that killing innocents is more honorable?!?! Then Leo pulls the same crap again in Revelation?! At least in Birthright I thought they treated him well enough until he received the all-too-typical "traitorous coward's death"...

Anyway, to paraphrase Dr Emily Grey from Red vs Blue: "Terrible writing for everyone!"

The worst part is that Kotaro, much like Zola, had a much smarter and less bloody plan to end the war (use Kagero as leverage to get Hoshido to surrender), but because Team Conquest is a bunch of idiots, they decide that's somehow more morally wrong than a bloody invasion that will leave countless innocents dead and team up with the enemy (Saizo) to kill their ally.

I honestly fail to see any narrative evidence that suggests that Nohr is honorable, aside from the word of the Nohrian siblings. The playable cast of Nohr may as well be the only decent people who work under the king in Nohr. Kotaro and Zola may have used trickery and dishonorable means, but had either of their plans succeeded the war would've ended a lot sooner and with far less bloodshed than whatever the hell Corrin was doing.

One could argue that Corrin is worse than both Kotaro and Zola, preaching peace and saving lives while taking the path that will cost the most lives. I'm not just talking about Hoshidan lives here, either. They killed Zola's troops (which doesn't make sense, why would they fight for Zola when their crown prince is saying stop), Kotaro and his ninjas, and I'm sure there were casualties on the Nohr side from warring against Hoshido past chapter 18.

I'm constantly reminded of how much better everyone is at debating than I am.

Honestly I'm wondering if the writing is so bizarre in part because of what Miyazaki said about the anime industry: people don't observe or communicate enough with others to make credible portrayals of how characters in their work should act. I'm sure there are numerous reasons as to why the dialogue in this game is so bad (or in many cases, non-existent where there should be something), but the fact that so many characters act incredibly stupid and unrealistically makes me wonder if it's just because they don't know how to write normal human reactions. That might be overly harsh, and I've got no proof for that being the case, but it's not a good impression to get.

Oh, and don't misunderstand me, I'm fully aware we're dealing with a fantasy world and anime characters, but that doesn't explain the utter lack of logic in some characters' actions, like AzureSen mentioned with Corrin apologizing to Camilla, or Hinoka wanting to side with Corrin after invading Hoshido and kicking the crap out of her.

I agree that they're morally bankrupt, but seeing as they only care about each other is exactly why they'd react to Camilla acting so strangely. Their family is like the only thing they care about, the rest of the world can burn for all they care.

You know, I seem to remember Radiant Dawn treating characters like the Nohrian family like hypocritical cowards only interested in saving their own skin; I wonder what happened to that mentality. Case in point:

Sanaki: Hetzel... I had thought that you alone might be above Lekain's foul conspiracy! It saddens me to see you at his side.

Hetzel: N-no, Apostle Sanaki! I--

Sanaki: I didn't ask for excuses! You fight alongside Lekain. That's more proof than I'll ever need.

Hetzel: ...You are right I fight with him. I had no choice. But...please, understand that I've always done my best to honor and respect Your Majesty.

Sanaki: Then how do you explain my confinement in Mainal Cathedral?

Hetzel: I-I didn't do anything! It was all Lekain! I didn't know anything about it, and only heard later...

Sanaki: And when you did hear of it, why didn't you stop it?

Hetzel: I...couldn't. Actually, I could have, but I didn't say anything. It was the same with Misaha, and the Serenes Massacre... I...

Sanaki: ...Didn't say anything. In other words, you stood by as my grandmother and Serenes people were killed!

Hetzel: P-please forgive me...

First: Thank you, Thane, for reminding me how badass Sanaki was and how wimpy the Nohrian Royals are in comparison (yes, I went there).

Second: I agree with all you guys and that is exactly the reason I have come to loathe the Royals as a whole, Azura included. Because they don't have the balls to stand up for themselves, they essentially let Garon and his entourage do whatever they wish, costing countless people's lives and destroying families (namely, the Hoshidan Royals) left and right without a care in the world.

'But, oh no! Garon's our father! We must blindly obey him, because that's what is best for Nohr, even though his actions clearly bring both countries to ruin.'

Yeah, you keep saying that, you wimpy f****.

Sadly, Conquest!Corrin doesn't have balls, either, else he/she'd have chopped Azura's head off for even suggesting going along with Garon's plans.

Luckily, though, Birthright!Corrin decides to grow a pair and shows the Nohrian Royals just how stupid they really are.

Xander, you deserve every death you get, you spineless bastard.

[NekoKnight]

The difference between Tharja and Camilla is that Tharja actually realizes what she's doing is wrong and stops in some of her supports. The one time the game addresses Camilla's smothering, pseudo-incestuous behavior in the Camilla/Corrin supports, Corrin is made out to be the bad guy because she's hurting Camilla's feelings by being sick and tired of Camilla's infantilizing condescension, and Camilla's violent obsession with Corrin is straight-up never addressed.

Those two conversations and Leo and Elise's supports are all we have. Most of what people accept as being part of Camilla's past (like the fact that she's previously had to kill other half-siblings) is purely speculation and fanon that sounds plausible enough and so people accept it as canon.

Oh no, it makes perfect sense: the Nohr siblings are a bunch of morally bankrupt hypocrites who easily condemn the bad behaviors of others without recognizing it in themselves. This is especially apparent when you compare their actions to those of Kotaro and Zola, and how the narrative treats them. They've already proven that they won't stick their necks out to help people if it might endanger them, why is it surprising that they don't care that Camilla is how she is as long as it doesn't affect them?

As much as I want to like Camilla because some of her supports hint at a really interesting backstory (and some of the only world building in the game), the depth and details of her character, as AzureSen notes here, are mostly fanon. It pains me that some people arguing in Camilla's favor are treating their fanon like canon.

She'd make an interesting, maybe even tragic character if the game gave her more attention. I think they should have merged Leon and Camilla into one character. Also, Hinoka and Ryoma, but that's another discussion.

[DragonFlames]

As much as I want to like Camilla because some of her supports hint at a really interesting backstory (and some of the only world building in the game), the depth and details of her character, as AzureSen notes here, are mostly fanon. It pains me that some people arguing in Camilla's favor are treating their fanon like canon.

She'd make an interesting, maybe even tragic character if the game gave her more attention. I think they should have merged Leon and Camilla into one character. Also, Hinoka and Ryoma, but that's another discussion.

Yeah, the 'Royal Bias' everyone throws around mostly concerns the male Royals, since they get all the attention, when the females get mostly shafted. It kind of bugs me, tbh, especially since I recently came to hate the male Royals (and Azura, but that's another story).

Merging Camilla and Leo into one character could be a very interesting idea, indeed. I'd like to see how that would turn out.

Edited July 20, 2016 by DragonFlames