Worst GBA FE Chapter

[ping]

Well I notice that in FE6, you CANNOT reliably dodge above a 20 hit chance and CANNOT reliably hit below a 90, which is not the same in FE7

It's not that it's more costly, it just happens more frequently that you miss and the enemy hits, even when you have between an 80 and a 90 chance while the enemy has between a 20 and 30 chance (It's one thing if it happens once or twice, but more than that is just too much)

Dude, you're fighting a losing battle here. You're just bringing up personal experience, while the string the RNG generates is completely known. It's also proven that the game uses the same string for player units and enemy units, and also that FE6 uses the same True Hit mechanism as the later games.

Keep in mind that 20 hit translates to a 8.20% chance to hit, so it's not exactly surprising if you get hit by it once in a while, especially if you try to dodgetank multiple enemies that way. You seem to have the mindset that <20% hit should never hit and >80% should never miss, but that's not how random numbers work.

If you play long enough, of course you will occasionally see some BS happening, but if you pick up this game again, please try to watch out for the RNG favouring you by having the enemy miss that 70% or Ward hitting a sword cav with the halberd (happened to me!).

[henrymidfields]

I did notice that there were the occasional misses from the 80s Accuracy, but I guess that's just sheer bad luck for me. Although, I remember more cases of berserkers succeeding in critical hits that were 30% accuracy and 30% critical - which I thought should have only 9% chance of fully connecting. It looks like you just cannot safely bet against a critical... (Only later did I find out that 10% hit is actually 2-3% actual hit, but 10% crit is just that: 10%.

[Weeping Dalek (MK)]

Dude, you're fighting a losing battle here. You're just bringing up personal experience, while the string the RNG generates is completely known. It's also proven that the game uses the same string for player units and enemy units, and also that FE6 uses the same True Hit mechanism as the later games.

Keep in mind that 20 hit translates to a 8.20% chance to hit, so it's not exactly surprising if you get hit by it once in a while, especially if you try to dodgetank multiple enemies that way. You seem to have the mindset that <20% hit should never hit and >80% should never miss, but that's not how random numbers work.

If you play long enough, of course you will occasionally see some BS happening, but if you pick up this game again, please try to watch out for the RNG favouring you by having the enemy miss that 70% or Ward hitting a sword cav with the halberd (happened to me!).

I'm not the only one who has noticed this, so it can't just be chopped up to my personal experience

I did notice that there were the occasional misses from the 80s Accuracy, but I guess that's just sheer bad luck for me. Although, I remember more cases of berserkers succeeding in critical hits that were 30% accuracy and 30% critical - which I thought should have only 9% chance of fully connecting. It looks like you just cannot safely bet against a critical... (Only later did I find out that 10% hit is actually 2-3% actual hit, but 10% crit is just that: 10%.

Yep, that would be the RNG saying "Screw you, restart the chapter"

[CT075]

I'm not the only one who has noticed this, so it can't just be chopped up to my personal experience

oh man oh man this is like how a 1% crit chance is actually like a 90%

im not the only one hwo has noticed this, so it can't just be chopped up to my personal experience???

[Magical Glace]

You can't fight mathematics dude.

Stop trying to fight mathematics.

It's known fact that FE6 has the same RNG as 7.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Glaceon Mage

[CT075]

the most baffling thing is that, despite all the claims that FE6's RNG makes the game harder, i have yet to hear anybody provide a reasonable mathematical mechanism by which the RNG is biased towards enemies

"20%s from enemies always seem to hit more" is not a mathematical mechanism. if someone were to present to me, say, "any RN drawn by an enemy is automatically reduced by 20" (which wouldn't actually work, but let's keep this as an example), I would be more willing to believe it (although i'd probably ask you to show me where in the code this happens because "drawn by an enemy" is a pretty vague qualifier). the game has been out long enough (and with it, claims that it's biased) that surely somebody would have determined the "true" way that enemy hit rates are calculated, if in fact there was one (other than true hit, which is actually fair)

it isn't like there's some human-like entity that controls the game and says "hey, that looks like it would suck if that hit; maybe we can fudge a 14 roll!"

E:

the reason it seems like FE6's rng is biased is because its maps are longer, making it more frustrating (and thus more memorable) when your run gets ended by [a run of] bad luck. nobody really remembers the time you win off six 80s landing in a row (26% chance, disregarding true hit for simplicity), because that is expected to happen, yet getting hit by a single 26% causes outrage and thus sticks in memory more. that, combined with the fact that fe6 has notoriously low accuracy rates in general, makes the game much more "swingy" based on the RNG, makes for many more memorable "get fucked" experiences, making it feel like it's biased

Edited September 5, 2016 by CT075

[ping]

I'm not the only one who has noticed this, so it can't just be chopped up to my personal experience

People actually use the knowledge about the RNG and the fact that the string is perfectly consistent and predictable. It's a fact that the first RNs used in a chapter (if you restarted at the start) are 8-56-21-47-66-60-46-77 and that the next number is always calculated from the three last numbers (thank you, dondon, for this short explanation in your 0% growths run). Take a look at Irysa's LTC run of gloriously rigged level-ups and tell me that he didn't know where to find the needed string beforehand.

Sorry, you're just plain wrong about this.The RNG of the GBA games is literally solved and it's a fact, not an opinion or a guess, that it's neither biased against nor in favour of the player. Although technically True Hit might rather favour the player, since he tends to have more >50% hitrates than the AI does.

[Lord Raven]

for more info:

Enemy phase RNG is incredibly difficult to rig on the grounds that enemy movement is determined by RNG so you cannot as easily predict it, but the RN string is still there and it exists.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Lord Raven

[Weeping Dalek (MK)]

oh man oh man this is like how a 1% crit chance is actually like a 90%

im not the only one hwo has noticed this, so it can't just be chopped up to my personal experience???

I'm basically saying that it isn't just my personal experience since many people also complain about this

You can't fight mathematics dude.

Stop trying to fight mathematics.

It's known fact that FE6 has the same RNG as 7.

Yeah, well I don't believe you

the most baffling thing is that, despite all the claims that FE6's RNG makes the game harder, i have yet to hear anybody provide a reasonable mathematical mechanism by which the RNG is biased towards enemies

"20%s from enemies always seem to hit more" is not a mathematical mechanism. if someone were to present to me, say, "any RN drawn by an enemy is automatically reduced by 20" (which wouldn't actually work, but let's keep this as an example), I would be more willing to believe it (although i'd probably ask you to show me where in the code this happens because "drawn by an enemy" is a pretty vague qualifier). the game has been out long enough (and with it, claims that it's biased) that surely somebody would have determined the "true" way that enemy hit rates are calculated, if in fact there was one (other than true hit, which is actually fair)

it isn't like there's some human-like entity that controls the game and says "hey, that looks like it would suck if that hit; maybe we can fudge a 14 roll!"

E:

the reason it seems like FE6's rng is biased is because its maps are longer, making it more frustrating (and thus more memorable) when your run gets ended by [a run of] bad luck. nobody really remembers the time you win off six 80s landing in a row (26% chance, disregarding true hit for simplicity), because that is expected to happen, yet getting hit by a single 26% causes outrage and thus sticks in memory more. that, combined with the fact that fe6 has notoriously low accuracy rates in general, makes the game much more "swingy" based on the RNG, makes for many more memorable "get fucked" experiences, making it feel like it's biased

Hmm... Maybe I should go through and test FE6 and FE7 on how many bullcrap RNG moments I have (where the enemy hits a low percent chance while I miss a high percent chance and record the total)

People actually use the knowledge about the RNG and the fact that the string is perfectly consistent and predictable. It's a fact that the first RNs used in a chapter (if you restarted at the start) are 8-56-21-47-66-60-46-77 and that the next number is always calculated from the three last numbers (thank you, dondon, for this short explanation in your 0% growths run). Take a look at Irysa's LTC run of gloriously rigged level-ups and tell me that he didn't know where to find the needed string beforehand.

Sorry, you're just plain wrong about this.The RNG of the GBA games is literally solved and it's a fact, not an opinion or a guess, that it's neither biased against nor in favour of the player. Although technically True Hit might rather favour the player, since he tends to have more >50% hitrates than the AI does.

for more info:

Enemy phase RNG is incredibly difficult to rig on the grounds that enemy movement is determined by RNG so you cannot as easily predict it, but the RN string is still there and it exists.

[Magical Glace]

I'm basically saying that it isn't just my personal experience since many people also complain about this

Yeah, well I don't believe you

Hmm... Maybe I should go through and test FE6 and FE7 on how many bullcrap RNG moments I have (where the enemy hits a low percent chance while I miss a high percent chance and record the total)

You can't say "I don't believe you" when people have literally hacked the game to figure out the exact RNG strings the game uses, and proven them identical.

They are the same. There is literally no room for discussion on this anymore. It's like saying the world is flat.

[Lord Raven]

I mean you can rig stuff on enemy phase, it's just that enemy phase stuff is more RNG reliant since movement paths are determined by RNG and sometimes the AI is as well (especially in FE6)

You should look stuff up on RN seeds; that is precisely how RNs are generated on any computer. Randomness literally does not exist on anything made by a computer (and I actually explain this in a more conceptually mathematical way in my LTC's OP). This is basic computer science. As it stands, the GBA FEs start on the same seed when you soft reset the game, and those numbers calculate the next random number and so on. This is not debatable.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Lord Raven

[Gradivus.]

Yeah, well I don't believe you

Here, read this: http://serenesforest.net/general/true-hit/

The first line outright states that FE6 had the same true hit system as FE7. That has been figured out by expert hackers who directly explored the game's RNG for that. You haven't, and your only reason to be "skeptical" at this point is that you're willfully ignorant and don't want to take correction on this.

Anyway, I have a feeling Weeping__Dalek is making those half-assed arguments just to bait and we should probably ignore them.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Gradivus.

[eclipse]

Here, read this: http://serenesforest.net/general/true-hit/

The first line outright states that FE6 had the same true hit system as FE7. That has been figured out by expert hackers who directly explored the game's RNG for that. You haven't, and your only reason to be "skeptical" at this point is that you're willfully ignorant and don't want to take correction on this.

Anyway, I have a feeling Weeping__Dalek is making those half-assed arguments just to bait and we should probably ignore them.

Some people really don't like being told that they're wrong.

Regardless, this isn't a good assumption to make, and a worse one to post. If it really is a problem, bug the mods.

[CT075]

Hmm... Maybe I should go through and test FE6 and FE7 on how many bullcrap RNG moments I have (where the enemy hits a low percent chance while I miss a high percent chance and record the total)

unless you're willing to run through the game hundreds of time to get thousands of RNG results, that's going to be way too small of a sample Edited September 6, 2016 by CT075

[Augestein]

Are we addressing difficulty or just dreadfulness?

If we're talking about dreadfulness, I'm going to say that I'm not a fan of Chapter 20x in terms of design. It's one of those chapters that takes a dump on your turns count (I know FE6 is really generous or at least I think it is) without massive RNG abuse/luck. Plus, the idea of you seizing a throne and then things ambush you is just dumb. I mean, WTF is happening? Roy is just like "I CLAIM THIS THRON-- Yeowsa! It's an enemy!!" I mean, none of the gaiden maps are particularly good in FE6, but this one just has me rolling my eyes because of how annoying it is-- and really, it's designed to be nothing more than annoying at best. I'm not a fan of intentionally annoying gimmicks-- like PoR's bridge stages with the holes in them? It doesn't really pose a threat, it's just irritating. This chapter can end up being like... 1 turn or 10 based on a random factor that you don't have much control over without extensive knowledge of the game.

For FE7, I'd give it to Genesis. Step 1: Forced split of the party, Step 2: Low deployment numbers, Step 3: Force TWO units here, Step 4: Place Silence all over the map. Step 5: Walls and Doors. Just... Annoying. It's a step up from BB 20x IMO because I don't think this was intentionally supposed to be that irritating, it just happens to be a storm of bad-- sort of like FE6's desert map. It's not the worst chapter, but you really have to be in the mood to put up with the challenges.

FE8: I guess the worst chapter is Selena's chapter? The chapter has a powerful caster spamming bolting at you, and flying across can be risky because of archers. It's not bad, but without fliers it'll take noticeably longer.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Augestein

[Weeping Dalek (MK)]

Are we addressing difficulty or just dreadfulness?

If we're talking about dreadfulness, I'm going to say that I'm not a fan of Chapter 20x in terms of design. It's one of those chapters that takes a dump on your turns count (I know FE6 is really generous or at least I think it is) without massive RNG abuse/luck. Plus, the idea of you seizing a throne and then things ambush you is just dumb. I mean, WTF is happening? Roy is just like "I CLAIM THIS THRON-- Yeowsa! It's an enemy!!" I mean, none of the gaiden maps are particularly good in FE6, but this one just has me rolling my eyes because of how annoying it is-- and really, it's designed to be nothing more than annoying at best. I'm not a fan of intentionally annoying gimmicks-- like PoR's bridge stages with the holes in them? It doesn't really pose a threat, it's just irritating. This chapter can end up being like... 1 turn or 10 based on a random factor that you don't have much control over without extensive knowledge of the game.

For FE7, I'd give it to Genesis. Step 1: Forced split of the party, Step 2: Low deployment numbers, Step 3: Force TWO units here, Step 4: Place Silence all over the map. Step 5: Walls and Doors. Just... Annoying. It's a step up from BB 20x IMO because I don't think this was intentionally supposed to be that irritating, it just happens to be a storm of bad-- sort of like FE6's desert map. It's not the worst chapter, but you really have to be in the mood to put up with the challenges.

FE8: I guess the worst chapter is Selena's chapter? The chapter has a powerful caster spamming bolting at you, and flying across can be risky because of archers. It's not bad, but without fliers it'll take noticeably longer.

On the subject of Bow of Winds, I haven't played it... yet, I will soon enough

For Genesis, I really like that chapter, but I don't get why you complain about the game forcing you to bring two units while earlier chapters (like Dragon's Gate) forced 3 and later chapters (specifically Light) force you to bring 5

I quite enjoy Fluorspar's Oath, I know I complain about the Cog of Destiny Enemy Phase taking too long, but I don't feel like it takes as long here.

[Augestein]

On the subject of Bow of Winds, I haven't played it... yet, I will soon enough

For Genesis, I really like that chapter, but I don't get why you complain about the game forcing you to bring two units while earlier chapters (like Dragon's Gate) forced 3 and later chapters (specifically Light) force you to bring 5

I quite enjoy Fluorspar's Oath, I know I complain about the Cog of Destiny Enemy Phase taking too long, but I don't feel like it takes as long here.

Well that's easy.

In Genesis, it's all of the things lumped together that make it the problem. Having 2 forced units in HHM when both of them are axe users and your deployment limit is 8 is pretty bad. Versus the Dragon's Gate which is 13 units with 3 being forced. In addition to that, you aren't silenced for a good portion of the map, and you aren't in a forced split-- meaning that you can divide the numbers for your splits (if you even opt to do so).

Flurospar's Oath isn't that bad of a chapter, I just said it's probably the worst FE8 map overall though IMO.

[Camus The Dark Knight]

I actually like the Arcadia map in FE6.

As for what I hate, it's generally the early game bandit maps, not sure why but they annoy so much and it makes starting a new game hard. Once I get past those chapters the game becomes fun for me.

[Mmicb0b]

It isn't hard to get Nino over to Jaffar, just rescue her with someone with high movement (Paladin, Falcon Knight, Wyvern Lord) and rush them to Jaffar, you really don't have to move that fast to protect Zephiel, I normally take like half the turns just getting up there

IK, I've played BBD on Hector mode, that's why I specified on Eliwood mode, Ursula has 52 hit on Jaffar, I don't really notice (He typically for me doesn't really move into her range)

The fighters with Swordreavers having just under 50 hit aren't too bad, unless you really get unlucky with RNG (thank goodness this isn't Binding Blade, or it would be near impossible to keep Jaffar alive), they also only appear on Hector mode

I dunno why they feel the need to move to heal, it's just how their AI is programmed I guess

Lance and Alan are amazing, especially when A-Supporting with each other (I always have a Lance-Alan A Support because it's so good)

Thany just sucks unless you get EXTREMELY lucky with her level-ups, Ellen isn't great, but since I don't have anyone better to field, I'll bring her for another healer (although I will not waste a Guiding Ring on her), Lugh is EXTREMELY vulnerable to getting Mag screwed, Saul is one of the better healers in FE6 from my experience, Lilina just kicks butt, Tate is clearly the best Falcon Knight in FE6, hands down (When your competition is Thany and Yuno, Tate just beats them both), Ray is the best Shaman (his competition is Sophia and Niime, although Niime imo is one of the better pre-promotes, only being beaten by Percival) and Miledy is easily the best flyer and can be your best unit, so ya

Regarding Cecilia, the only reason you want her (other than more staff units) is for her Aircalibur and her Mend

is it bad I benched Raigh for Sophia due to Raigh getting Speed and Defense screwed I deleted the rom due to it not working so RIP

[Weeping Dalek (MK)]

In Genesis, it's all of the things lumped together that make it the problem. Having 2 forced units in HHM when both of them are axe users and your deployment limit is 8 is pretty bad. Versus the Dragon's Gate which is 13 units with 3 being forced. In addition to that, you aren't silenced for a good portion of the map, and you aren't in a forced split-- meaning that you can divide the numbers for your splits (if you even opt to do so).

Flurospar's Oath isn't that bad of a chapter, I just said it's probably the worst FE8 map overall though IMO.

I dunno, Hector is at least good, Hawkeye is viable (Every unit in FE7 is) and I am not judging on HHM, I'm judging on ENM and HNM, 8 isn't that bad as long as you have 8 real good units (or in this case, 7), being silenced for me is more of a minor annoyance than a huge turn-off (and that's saying something coming from someone who loves to have an army of magic users [at this point, Erk, Serra, Priscilla and Canas are all in my army]) the forced split isn't too bad if you know it's coming, and there are ways to change it by breaking down walls

I'd say there are worse chapters in FE8 than Fluorspar's Oath (a lot of worse chapters) such as, well, all the fog maps

As for what I hate, it's generally the early game bandit maps, not sure why but they annoy so much and it makes starting a new game hard. Once I get past those chapters the game becomes fun for me.

Especially on Hard Mode when they have more than 50 hit chance on your units

is it bad I benched Raigh for Sophia due to Raigh getting Speed and Defense screwed I deleted the rom due to it not working so RIP

I mean, if Ray had only got defense screwed, then I would say yes. But since he also got speed screwed, then as long as Sophia got speed, no

[Dark Holy Elf]

I tend to forget about this one due to not doing Hector Mode that often but I really hate The Berserker. Tiny deployment, no Merlinus but a lot of treasure/dropped items so you get obnoxious inventory management, stuff to steal so you kind of want to bring a thief who is unpromoted super-late in the game, the boss randomly having far higher Res than is displayed (which kinda screws you over if you chose a mage as one of your 1-2 non-Hector units), and of course lots of time wasted watching poison animate over and over.

[Weeping Dalek (MK)]

I tend to forget about this one due to not doing Hector Mode that often but I really hate The Berserker. Tiny deployment, no Merlinus but a lot of treasure/dropped items so you get obnoxious inventory management, stuff to steal so you kind of want to bring a thief who is unpromoted super-late in the game, the boss randomly having far higher Res than is displayed (which kinda screws you over if you chose a mage as one of your 1-2 non-Hector units), and of course lots of time wasted watching poison animate over and over.

On the subject of thieves, did you know that Assassins can still use Lockpicks? Assassins trade the Steal Skill for the Silencer Skill, but Lockpick use stays. All you have to do is bring Jaffar with a Sword and a Lockpick and you're good on the inventory management

[Shadow Mir]

On the subject of thieves, did you know that Assassins can still use Lockpicks? Assassins trade the Steal Skill for the Silencer Skill, but Lockpick use stays. All you have to do is bring Jaffar with a Sword and a Lockpick and you're good on the inventory management

I'm sure that's common knowledge by now. Anyways, I'd say it's worse on HHM because you only get one other unit, and there are statboosters on some enemies, which must be stolen. Edited September 14, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Weeping Dalek (MK)]

I'm sure that's common knowledge by now. Anyways, I'd say it's worse on HHM because you only get one other unit, and there are statboosters on some enemies, which must be stolen.

So, Matthew, Hector and maybe a really powerful unit like Pent

[Gradivus.]

So, Matthew, Hector and maybe a really powerful unit like Pent

HHM only gives you one unit in addition to Hector on this map, so this doesn't work. Regardless, the map isn't very interesting to play, you get to field one overpowered unit and one decent one (= Hector), and the treasure is pretty irrelevant, so it's just a boring chapter. I wouldn't call it the worst one because of that, just bad (which doesn't make it much of an outlier because I find that bad sums up the overall quality of FE7's maps).

Edited September 17, 2016 by Gradivus.