ZeRo starts a tier list of his own... Again (Smash 4)

[Refa]

Marth was actually one of the more complex Melee/Brawl characters, so I wouldn't call his old play style autopilot by any means. Honestly, it was probably more complex than his Smash 4 incarnation just because he had so many more options.

Wow Marth, Lucina, and Lucario all in the Top 13? That's surprising, to say the least.

Keep in mind that Marth and Lucina take up the same slot.

[shadowofchaos]

Marth was actually one of the more complex Melee/Brawl characters, so I wouldn't call his old play style autopilot by any means. Honestly, it was probably more complex than his Smash 4 incarnation just because he had so many more options.

What I meant was actually directed towards his usual tendency of throwing out how fast his disjoint hitboxes came out. Like how relatively safe on shield at a certain distance all of his options are kind of secured his place on top.

The smash 4 incarnation has to be more "complex" on how the player handles his options because of how limited his sage options are compared to his previous incarnations.

Ken's first impressions during the smash 4 invitational consisted of a lot of his focus about how much Marth wasn't "top tier" anymore. Previous incarnations could go in, and pressure characters to either back off or get hit into tipper range.

Like, utilt to utilt being a ridiculous pressure move/combo tool in Melee under a platform... Smash 4 Marth can't rely on that and forces a completely different playstyle. People worked around it (like how the uair stuff that happens during the tourney for the Kamui demo) got nerfed when Sakurai himself saw it, but people still found ways around it.

Smash 4 iteration tipper gimmicks are pretty much escapable unless... you're Robin.

Edited August 31, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Comet]

marth can use his movement amd down tilt to aggressively rake stage control amd stuff, which is the most important thing at the end of the day, but most of his attacks can be punished if he whiffs. of marth up tilts a shield, it's an easy shield drop punish for the other character.

[Jedi]

Well, true but I would have figured that Marth shares a lot of the problems that Roy has, like a lack of approach options for example.

Marth has had really good results of late, such as in Mexico and having two of his players get top 32 at Evo, many players are considering him top 15 if not top 10 currently.

[Fire Emblem Fan]

Keep in mind that Marth and Lucina take up the same slot.

I know, but I hear ALL the time about how inferior Lucina is, so it's surprising.

[Raguna]

I know, but I hear ALL the time about how inferior Lucina is, so it's surprising.

Marth holds the edge due to tipper mechanic really since that's what separates them.

[Jedi]

But she's still solid, because she still has his pretty solid moveset, it just doesn't have as much of a punch.

[Fire Emblem Fan]

I honestly kind of gravitate towards Lucina a bit more than Marth. I mean, I prefer Roy over all the FE characters, but between Marth and Lucina...I've always liked Marth, but for some reason I find myself picking Lucina more often.

[Ken Masters]

I always wandered if there was any actual advantage (be it consistent or situational) about picking Lucina over Marth.

I know about the whole tipper/no-tipper dilema, but I'm seriously thinkg that there's no real reason to main Lucina. The only benefit I see is that her hurtbox is smaller without sacrificing range, but that's not that relevant :/

[Raguna]

I honestly kind of gravitate towards Lucina a bit more than Marth. I mean, I prefer Roy over all the FE characters, but between Marth and Lucina...I've always liked Marth, but for some reason I find myself picking Lucina more often.

Well maybe it's because Lucina is a simpler character and you just like her better. Liking a character more than another and tiers aren't one in the same and honestly if you prefer Lucina then have fun using her. Sure, it's great when a favorite character of yours is one of the best, but in this case Lucina doesn't take too much skill in comparison to Marth due to having to properly space most of your attacks.

Heck before the patch updates when the game came out, bottom and low tier was called Fire Emblem tier. Now Marth and Corrin and possibly Lucina are upper mid or high, Robin, probably Lucina here and Ike are solid mid tier and while still considered low tier, Roy I feel is more due to having his most notable contribution to the scene be fairly recent ones as he's barely used.

[Jedi]

Lucina does better in Matchups where Marth struggles to get tippers in I think personally.

Also I think Robin might actually be upper-mid, considering the good results Dath has been getting, but this game is so chaotic with so many solid characters, its hard to properly gauge anyone, look in Japan for instance, two popular characters to use there, Duck Hunt and Pac-man are hardly used here etc. Meanwhile they barely use Ike and the west has like all the Ike's lol.

I also think its a matter of time before Roy rises as well, considering Ryo and Sethlon of late.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Jedi

[Jiac]

I think a big part in Roy being as low as he is, was his hype in the beginning of his release. People were begging for Marth to have follow-ups after his throws and Roy basically came in with that.

When people realized Roy probably wasn't a top tier, and people started putting him lower on tier list. He just started to plummet with no reasonable justification. However, this caused Roy's meta to slow significantly because less people want to play/try him out. Roy's previous Melee stigma found its way to Smash 4 Roy, even though they're incredibly different.

I do believe Roy will rise in the near future. It's just there's not enough people to research and explore more stuff with him that his progress to optimization is slow. Nor is there enough players for widespread, more consistent results. It's being worked on, however, if there was more people to discover or play him at a high level to get a better understanding of him, he could actually be capable.

The Roy Meta is on life-support to just the extremely dedicated players, whose progress unfortunately may not even be recognized. Honestly, playing Roy is incredibly physically, emotionally and psychologically demanding to play, which is probably why his results are limited. The general stigma of "Roy is actually a bad character, and unviable" and being judged for your selection of character on the most balanced Smash game in the series makes him probably incredibly discouraging to a lot of people. They do not want to dedicate time to him either because he's quite frankly tough to play or a generally negative environment you have to play in. If everyone is telling you a character is bad, why put the time in him? Why go through the destruction and consequences of selecting him, what is there to gain? It's not unlikely Roy will stay this low because simply there's a lot of negativity and stress in playing him, that outweigh his actual objective skills and potential. It's one of my bigger worries. Though this is more rant-like than addressing actual issues and discussing his ranking.

[Zera]

I think Roy is low tier because A. It literally costs money to play him, and B. Cloud is better anyway.

[ChibiToastExplosion]

Roy's my boy. I love him to death.

He will never be as high as Marth, solely due to how a sword character SHOULD be using range to their advantage. Marth is literally rewarded for this.

Roy definitely isn't that low, though - he just won't light the world on fire shot

[Jedi]

It literally costs money to play him

It costs money to play anyone in the game technically. Especially at a competitive level where you're paying money to compete.

[Jedi]

ZeRo puts up the top peeps!

His list at a glance

Edited September 4, 2016 by Jedi

[The DanMan]

Cloud seems to be at a more accurate position than on the official tier list; that said, I'm sure many will debate the top 3.

Edited September 4, 2016 by The DanMan

[Jedi]

Cloud seems to be at a more accurate position than on the official tier list; that said, I'm sure many will debate the top 3.

Honestly people are gonna debate the entire list, because almost all the characters in the game are getting pushed somewhere or another or doing something wacky haha.

Like heck, a Link got 9th in a major in Japan recently for instance.

Edited September 4, 2016 by Jedi

[The DanMan]

Honestly people are gonna debate the entire list, because almost all the characters in the game are getting pushed somewhere or another or doing something wacky haha.

Like heck, a Link got 9th in a major in Japan recently for instance.

That much is understood- I meant more specifically that the top 3 in this recent batch will probably be debated a lot.

Heck, screw it, the ordering of the entire top ten seems like one big YMMV.

[Jedi]

That much is understood- I meant more specifically that the top 3 in this recent batch will probably be debated a lot.

Heck, screw it, the ordering of the entire top ten seems like one big YMMV.

Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly, also I do think his opinion on Diddy is the best one, I never thought about things he said about Diddy, but seeing as he mains him. I think its accurate to listen to that stuff in particular.

It's like how if you ask me Ike stuff i'm much better off telling you that stuff than say, Pac-Man lmao.

[Elieson]

Jedi

Enjoy Sonic at Number 2! Please! Revel in it!

[Jedi]

Jedi

Enjoy Sonic at Number 2! Please! Revel in it!

Maybe if he was fun to play as still -.-

[Jiac]

Cloud seems to be at a more accurate position than on the official tier list; that said, I'm sure many will debate the top 3.

imo Smashboards Tier List is more of a popularity contest more than anything.

Like Roy Bottom 6? What a joke.

[Florete]

There are few things about ZeRo's list I don't completely agree with, but overall I think it's a pretty solid list, probably the best I've seen in my less-educated opinion. Definitely better than the Smashboards one.

[Jedi]

There are few things about ZeRo's list I don't completely agree with, but overall I think it's a pretty solid list, probably the best I've seen in my less-educated opinion. Definitely better than the Smashboards one.

Yeah I generally agree with most of his placements, I think the more impressive thing is that even for the low guys he managed to say they have some really good stuff, despite their placements.