"Nice guys"

[Res]

Well, it's not as if I'm gonna get hostile over it. You have to understand that some people are just going to choose not to be feminists when they disagree with a cornerstone of feminist theory like the patriarchy. I have not been presented with compelling evidence to show that it is the case, but I am open to argument.

Edit: Eh, but that's besides the discussion.

Yeah, I respect or agree with most of what you write, and I'm not here to force people to be feminists. I'm also open to argument if you do feel like going over it.

My 'oh boy' came more from my lived experiences as a woman, really. Like, to me, the patriarchy is obviously alive and kicking, but trying to transfer across those experiences, that's tougher.

[UNLEASH IT]

Yeah, I respect or agree with most of what you write, and I'm not here to force people to be feminists. I'm also open to argument if you do feel like going over it.

My 'oh boy' came more from my lived experiences as a woman, really. Like, to me, the patriarchy is obviously alive and kicking, but trying to transfer across those experiences, that's tougher.

I opened a thread in the Serious discussion area (I think it should go there) about the topic, since I'm also interested in hearing people's opinions on the topic, but I didn't want to do it here. You guys can go there if you want

[Integrity]

It's an American thing. Your country has one of the strongest modern monarchs, and she's a female who is absolutely admirable and strong willed. The patriarchy argument in Britain effectively died with Elizabeth's coronation, or failing that, the rise of Margaret Thatcher. My country has yet to have a female president, and given our current options, that could be construed as a good thing, even though it really isn't. Feminists in Europe focus on the patriarchy less because leader like Elizabeth and Angela Merkel are showing that women are strong leaders, too. In the US, though, the patriarchy concept is there in all but name, because there are many who are unwilling to admit it to protect themselves from their voter base.

what? we have a black president right now and racism is still very much alive and kicking. just putting somebody in the highest position of power (the queen, merkel, etc.) doesn't automatically smash years of institutionalized discrimination

EDIT: i'm coining the term "the whiteriarchy" to describe it original word pls don't steal

Edited September 16, 2016 by Integrity

[NekoKnight]

OP here, friendly reminder that this is a thread about "nice guys" and not the existence of a patriarchy. Thank you.

And if you disregard my friendly reminder, despite all the kind posts I made JUST FOR YOU, then FUCK YOU. You never deserved my friendship. Bitches, man.

I probably shouldn't be using this as an example, but I think that it sums it up pretty well.

Now, I know that the term has kinda lost its meaning recently and is sometimes used to shit on anything that men do, but if I had to describe what toxic masculinity is, it'd probably be something similar to the video above.

This is a pretty good description, even if exaggerated for comedy.

I wonder if the number of 'nice guys' exceeding 'nice girls' is in part responsible because of the expectation that guys make the first move. Some guys just aren't confident enough to make overt romantic gestures, but society still tells them it's their responsibility to initiate. So you have these people making half-measure attempts (being nice) to suggest romantic interest.

Edited September 17, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Res]

Well, the problem with Nice Guys is a) their niceness is a farce and b) they continue to persist even when the woman expressed disinterest or says no. A guy who makes half-measure attempts to suggest romantic interest is only a problem if he's only nice to that romantic interest.

If a guy is nice to everyone and he just so happens to also be nice to a romantic interest, and if he simply walks away when it finally becomes clear that he doesn't have a chance, and doesn't start screaming 'you bitch!' or blaming the woman, there's not a problem. It's specifically the sense of entitlement plus the fake niceness that people refer to when talking about Nice Guys.

[Sunwoo]

Women are harder to win as they have more freedom than ever to say "no" to any potential prospects

I realize I'm really late in responding to this particular message, but I feel it has to be said. Personally, I feel it is a poor attitude to view women (or, well, any person) as something to be "won". And maybe that's one problem with society and finding a boyfriend or girlfriend in general. Some people view potential significant others as something to be "won", and when you view someone as something to be won then it's hard to say whether you respect them as a person. Respect and love are not "won," they are earned.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Sunwoo

[Sånıc Bÿm]

I realize I'm really late in responding to this particular message, but I feel it has to be said. Personally, I feel it is a poor attitude to view women (or, well, any person) as something to be "won". And maybe that's one problem with society and finding a boyfriend or girlfriend in general. Some people view potential significant others as something to be "won", and when you view someone as something to be won then it's hard to say whether you respect them as a person. Respect and love are not "won," they are earned.

I like to think of romantic relationships as partnerships between equals, and not as some sort of "ownership" or "possession" or whatever.

EDIT #over 9000: I'm having a really hard time conveying my thoughts, and this is coming from someone who is a native English speaker. What I'm trying to say is that when people are in a romantic relationship with each other, I don't see it as them "owning" or "belonging to" each other, but rather, I see them as partners or co-collaborators in a romantic endeavor.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Sånıc Bÿm

[Skynstein]

Ok, being too nice does not get you anywhere in the modern competitive world. I'm not speaking of relationships... I speak of everything.

That being said...

1) God forbid that a man uses "subterfuge" to court a woman... Like every other man in history. Just because it doesn't work on you, doesn't mean it's wrong.

2) God forbid that a man does not keep the relationship on the same level when rejected by a woman. He must smile and think it was great and keep being friends despite his body telling him otherwise and despite the pain he feels. Man up, you silly!

What I'm saying is that some women have completely unrealistic expectations when it comes to courting and acceptance, and now they're mixing this mess into a garbled form of feminism that tells men it's wrong to court women. No, I'm not going to talk to you the same way if you reject me. I will understand, but don't expect me to act the same. It may not have been your intention, but you've caused pain. That pain takes time to heal, and may never even heal. If you, as a woman, expect the guy to treat you the same way after you reject him, you're not understanding how he feels at all. As much as he will have to understand your rejection, so must you with regards to his distancing. That's what equality is.

And yes, this is only a major issue because it's men who are expected to make the move and the millenials love to bash everything associated with men and masculinity, as the friendzone as a concept can be very much applied to men rejecting women as well, and it hurts the same.

[shadowofchaos]

The whole distancing thing isn't the issue. It's that "distancing" is more often than not, being actual hostility way beyond any logical level of "distancing to cope from rejection".

It's like being two-faced.

The more middle of the road reaction there doesn't describe the "nice guy" connotation.

You pretty much unintentionally straw man'd there.

Edited September 26, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Thane]

1) God forbid that a man uses "subterfuge" to court a woman... Like every other man in history. Just because it doesn't work on you, doesn't mean it's wrong.

God forbid society and its norms change. Not too long ago, it was hard to get a divorce in the Western world, and even then it was frowned upon. I'm personally glad we don't live in such a society anymore.

2) God forbid that a man does not keep the relationship on the same level when rejected by a woman. He must smile and think it was great and keep being friends despite his body telling him otherwise and despite the pain he feels. Man up, you silly!

No one says that. Getting sad, angry and hurt is natural. Acting like an entitled brat is not.

What I'm saying is that some women have completely unrealistic expectations when it comes to courting and acceptance, and now they're mixing this mess into a garbled form of feminism that tells men it's wrong to court women.

Seeing as you say you need to use subterfuge to get somewhere on the dating scene, I'd say having unrealistic expectations is not exactly limited to only women. Many men, plenty of which are nice guys, expect women to fall for them just because they show them basic decency, a trait shared by most people on the face of the planet. If that's not delusion, I don't know what is.

Also, I've never once met a woman in real life talking about feminism in relation to dating.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Thane

[Rapier]

You are under the impression this is a thing only teens and young 20 somethings do. You are incorrect. This behavior is something im seeing even in blokes my age and up. (and im not what you consider rather young, mate.) No no. This isnt the solution. Some guys might mature and get over this, but the way im seeing guys actually break away from this behavior, is being taught that its fucking shitty and horrible to women. By showing them consequences and basically dismantling the viewpoint that they are owed for being "nice", and women have standards too, is how its happening. Boys in their teens are seeing this either on social media or their older sisters are telling em, or their female friends, etc and they are realizing its BS and must end. Its a testament to how some are learning, that the majority of the replies in this thread are lombasting these "nice guys" instead of defending them. Its not really maturity as much as just knowledge.

I think the problem is far deeper than "men are acting like assholes toward women and need to be educated". It's a human thing to expect a reward for doing something nice to somebody, and women obviously also fit there (tbh, the male focus toward this subject seems really biased and of unequal treatment, but that's what happens when one is a opressed minority and the other is just a privileged patriarchal opressor scum, I guess. Ideologies have this obfuscating effect on people that makes you disconsider the other side and over value another).

Educating people that they're not entitled royalty or that you can't use good actions as a contract binding someone to retribute latter on lest they be socially shamed and viled, as that is unethical and troll logic, would be much more efficient, because if you just educate them to stop being assholes toward women, we'll still have to deal with other issues rooting from entitlement and egocentrism.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Rapier

[NekoKnight]

1) God forbid that a man uses "subterfuge" to court a woman... Like every other man in history. Just because it doesn't work on you, doesn't mean it's wrong.

2) God forbid that a man does not keep the relationship on the same level when rejected by a woman. He must smile and think it was great and keep being friends despite his body telling him otherwise and despite the pain he feels. Man up, you silly!

The difference between a genuine nice guy and a "nice guy" is not being a dick after getting rejected. That doesn't mean amicable relations are owed, just that you should show baseline respect for people, even if their rejection hurt you. You certainly aren't obligated to continue giving them above average treatment or even continue associating with them.

I think the problem is far deeper than "men are acting like assholes toward women and need to be educated". It's a human thing to expect a reward for doing something nice to somebody, and women obviously also fit there (tbh, the male focus toward this subject seems really biased and of unequal treatment, but that's what happens when one is a opressed minority and the other is just a privileged patriarchal opressor scum, I guess. Ideologies have this obfuscating effect on people that makes you disconsider the other side and over value another).

I think the male focus comes from the reality that males are expected to initiate courtship, not a societal bias.

Edited September 27, 2016 by NekoKnight

[eclipse]

I think the problem is far deeper than "men are acting like assholes toward women and need to be educated". It's a human thing to expect a reward for doing something nice to somebody, and women obviously also fit there (tbh, the male focus toward this subject seems really biased and of unequal treatment, but that's what happens when one is a opressed minority and the other is just a privileged patriarchal opressor scum, I guess. Ideologies have this obfuscating effect on people that makes you disconsider the other side and over value another).

Educating people that they're not entitled royalty or that you can't use good actions as a contract binding someone to retribute latter on lest they be socially shamed and viled, as that is unethical and troll logic, would be much more efficient, because if you just educate them to stop being assholes toward women, we'll still have to deal with other issues rooting from entitlement and egocentrism.

I'm just gonna assume that you responded before reading the topic, because you kinda missed this:

Kindness is not something that is a bartering tool. Women are people, and people aren't some sort of prize to be earned after doing X amount of things. "Nice guys" violate both of these, and that's not cool.

In the words of a certain Final Fantasy protagonist:

"You don't need a reason to help people."

The minute kindness becomes some sort of means to an end is the minute the other person becomes less than a person. If you want something from someone, why not be honest about your intentions? Expecting any sort of reward for doing the right thing is what's backwards, IMO. Just do it, and let things sort themselves out!

[Refa]

In the words of a certain Final Fantasy protagonist:

"You don't need a reason to help people."

The minute kindness becomes some sort of means to an end is the minute the other person becomes less than a person. If you want something from someone, why not be honest about your intentions? Expecting any sort of reward for doing the right thing is what's backwards, IMO. Just do it, and let things sort themselves out!

Yeah, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to pursue a relationship with someone (which is why I get kind of annoyed when people are like "why not just be friends first????") but you have to be honest about that (as long as you're not uh creepy about it). Being nice as a means to an end always confused me, because 1) it's just something you should generally do anyways (EDIT uh...being nice, I mean, not as a means to an end; in retrospect, that was horrible wording) and 2) I can't speak for other people, but I wouldn't be interested in someone just because they're nice (even as a friend).

Also that's a great quote.

Edited September 27, 2016 by Refa

[Res]

Yeah, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to pursue a relationship with someone (which is why I get kind of annoyed when people are like "why not just be friends first????") but you have to be honest about that (as long as you're not uh creepy about it).

Exactly.

*snip*

Your entire post pretty much missed what a 'Nice Guy' is and why they're so reviled.

It's a human thing to expect a reward for doing something nice to somebody, and women obviously also fit there

I really hope you read egglipse's post, because her response is perfect.

I mean, this is a pretty revolting thing to read. You basically just equated women to an inanimate object.

[NekoKnight]

I mean, this is a pretty revolting thing to read. You basically just equated women to an inanimate object.

I think you guys are taking Rapier's point out of context. He means (I presume) that it's natural for people to expect gratitude in return for their positive actions. If you helped an old lady across the street, you'd expect a "thank you", right? No action is purely altruistic. He goes on to clarify that this doesn't mean one should use preferential treatment to bind people to a social contract they didn't ask for. The point is, you can't just call people assholes for having a "good action --> reward" mentality and expect them to change. You need to explain why entitlement/egocentrism is an issue.

It's like you didn't read his second paragraph.

[Rapier]

wow it's because of these things that I always get lynched on Mafia

I think you guys are taking Rapier's point out of context. He means (I presume) that it's natural for people to expect gratitude in return for their positive actions. If you helped an old lady across the street, you'd expect a "thank you", right? No action is purely altruistic. He goes on to clarify that this doesn't mean one should use preferential treatment to bind people to a social contract they didn't ask for. The point is, you can't just call people assholes for having a "good action --> reward" mentality and expect them to change. You need to explain why entitlement/egocentrism is an issue.

It's like you didn't read his second paragraph.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Thank you.

I should've been cleared when I said it was natural to want a reward after doing something good. I did not say it was a good or desirable thing. I meant that it's something that comes to our heads anyway (on more numerous contexts than courtships). When I said it was natural, I was not trying to make those reactions valid or acceptable.

I pointed that its a human problem rather than a male problem, and that I think it should be addressed that way, instead of making it up as if only men are guilty of doing something that "everyone" does/experiences. And I wanted to amplify that kind of entitlement's scope.

I think the male focus comes from the reality that males are expected to initiate courtship, not a societal bias.

I'm really sleepy so maybe I didn't understand what you said, but...

Do you mean that this is a more recurring problem toward women because men initiate courtship (with the intention of receiving a proportionate reward for nice actions) more often?

Well, in any case, such things also happen toward men. Even if it is done less, I think an egalitarian approach would be more efficient than focusing only on men. My intent was to focus on entitlement and egocentrism in general to address the root problem of demanding reciprocity. By pointing out how awful this is to women and educating people to not act that way, we're just dealing with one of its arising issues. Not that it isn't important to advise others to treat women (well, I prefer people in general instead of "women" or "men") better, but that it's counterproductive to pretend this is a standalone issue.

Edited September 28, 2016 by Rapier

[eclipse]

I think you guys are taking Rapier's point out of context. He means (I presume) that it's natural for people to expect gratitude in return for their positive actions. If you helped an old lady across the street, you'd expect a "thank you", right? No action is purely altruistic. He goes on to clarify that this doesn't mean one should use preferential treatment to bind people to a social contract they didn't ask for. The point is, you can't just call people assholes for having a "good action --> reward" mentality and expect them to change. You need to explain why entitlement/egocentrism is an issue.

It's like you didn't read his second paragraph.

It would be GREAT if I got some sort of response for doing something nice. However, I don't expect it. What I do expect is not to be kicked in the face for doing something nice. Gratitude from the other person is wonderful, but I don't think I'm entitled to it because I did a good deed.

[Original Alear]

It would be GREAT if I got some sort of response for doing something nice. However, I don't expect it. What I do expect is not to be kicked in the face for doing something nice. Gratitude from the other person is wonderful, but I don't think I'm entitled to it because I did a good deed.

Some people like that kind of thing.

[Skynstein]

Member "NekoKnight" gave me a sensible answer.

You don't really have to act like a dick. I would wholeheartedly agree with this feeling. But it's pretty difficult to keep social interaction with a person who rejected you, even when they might have been a good friend! This is something that time will show to you. Afer the rejection, it's better to keep your distance, perhaps?

I don't like the use of subterfuge to get a girl. Everytime I've tried so, I've failed. Best to be yourself and hope for the best. Many guys are falling for the trap of the "subterfuges". Pickup artists, they're called. Love is not exact science. Perhaps that's why it's so hard to me.

What I don't like is that the man becomes somewhat of a villain in this case. That's a bit unfortunate. A story has two sides, at least. That's what gets me.

It's hard to say whether the friendzone is a real concept because it relies on pure theory, that if your approach were different, you'd win the girl, and that's impossible to prove. I dunno, love is so random that something that works on one girl doesn't work on another. This is a much bigger discussion than we think!

The reason for my favorite character? Well she's the embodiment of my frustration! And in every ending she has, she learns that the Chrom she loved was a fiction and that her real love is the one she chose to be with. Some of them are harder to get along with than others, but she always manages it.

Edited October 2, 2016 by Cerberus87

[NekoKnight]

Pick-up artists are a different beast than 'nice guys'. My understanding of them is that they pick away at a girl's insecurities (referred to as 'negging') in order to manipulate her into having sex with the guy. Some might call this fair game or 'seduction', but I would be uncomfortable with that being the norm to courtship. Of the pick-up artists that I've known, they never had long term girlfriends, either because either the glamour wears off or they just have temporary partners by choice. Mind you, I'm not too judgemental because for every guy who likes unlimited one-night-stands, there's probably a girl who is a serial-monogamist.

A man isn't a villain for seeking romantic affection from a woman, but it might be easy to mix him up with the hungry wolves that treat women like pieces of meat. Long story short, don't go to either extreme; no 'romance is dead, so I'll be a manipulative asshole' and no 'any assertiveness is wrong and I shouldn't even try'. I'm not an expert on romance but I'm at least aware of how to be a decent person that respects others.

In regards to the friendzone, it does exist, just not the way 'nice guys' think it does. I've made romantic gestures, been turned down and the girl was still friendly afterwords. The fake-friendzone that doesn't exist is where someone felt romantic affection was 'owed' but the other person only 'paid' in friendship.

[eclipse]

You don't really have to act like a dick. I would wholeheartedly agree with this feeling. But it's pretty difficult to keep social interaction with a person who rejected you, even when they might have been a good friend! This is something that time will show to you. Afer the rejection, it's better to keep your distance, perhaps?

So get on with your life? There's a huge difference between accepting rejection and doing other stuff, and blaming the other party. One of these is a lot more acceptable in my eyes.

I don't like the use of subterfuge to get a girl. Everytime I've tried so, I've failed. Best to be yourself and hope for the best. Many guys are falling for the trap of the "subterfuges". Pickup artists, they're called. Love is not exact science. Perhaps that's why it's so hard to me.

Think of how much you'd like it if you found out that you were scammed out of your money. That's what I equate the "subterfuge" you're talking about with.

What I don't like is that the man becomes somewhat of a villain in this case. That's a bit unfortunate. A story has two sides, at least. That's what gets me.

Do you honestly think we women think that rejecting a guy is fun? Perhaps some women do, but most of the sensible ones know that guys are humans, and have feelings and all. Besides, if she was a complete and utter bitch about rejecting you, then she would've made a shitty girlfriend (since stomping over other people's feelings is a sign of a lack of maturity/empathy).

It's hard to say whether the friendzone is a real concept because it relies on pure theory, that if your approach were different, you'd win the girl, and that's impossible to prove. I dunno, love is so random that something that works on one girl doesn't work on another. This is a much bigger discussion than we think!

FOR FUCK'S SAKE, MEN AND WOMEN ARE PEOPLE!

Do you talk to your father the same way you talk to your best friend? No, because they're different people who fulfill different roles in your life. Likewise, a women you've just met is a stranger. She's not some weird subspecies, she's not a prize, she's not a mystery or something to pile your blame on. . .she's a human who has likes and dislikes, laughs over certain events and cries over others.

[Rapier]

Cerberus is being misread hard, and I'd claim he's being portrayed in a bad light through extremely biased lens trying to nitpick and misrep what he said if I didn't know clipsey better (seriously, this thing needs to stop to happen whenever we're talking about social issues/minorities). I suggest calming down and reading him again.

##Vote: clipsey

Edited October 3, 2016 by Rapier

[Time the Crestfallen]

Think of how much you'd like it if you found out that you were scammed out of your money. That's what I equate the "subterfuge" you're talking about with.

What the hell does 'subterfuge' even mean in this context? The only thing I can think of is lying about yourself, which is really crappy way to start a relationship. Not to mention it'll bite you in the arse latter.

Do you honestly think we women think that rejecting a guy is fun? Perhaps some women do, but most of the sensible ones know that guys are humans, and have feelings and all. Besides, if she was a complete and utter bitch about rejecting you, then she would've made a shitty girlfriend (since stomping over other people's feelings is a sign of a lack of maturity/empathy)..

There was a girl in my brother's year group who rejected someone who asked her out by saying, and I quote, "Yes. Fuck yes. Have my babies. Lol jk." So yeah, realistically anyone who has fun with rejecting someone probably isn't a nice person.

[Thor Odinson]

Hell I mean, it's not like women don't know how it's like to get rejected either---there's rejection in all facets of life and even romantically, some of us do ask people out, you know

I'm the kind of person who can only get attracted to people I'm already friends with. If I don't know a person well enough they don't even register on my radar. I'also don't like the whole playing games and the "chase" and all that bullshit, so if I like a guy, I'll ask the motherfucker out. Straightforward is the best way, IMO. That means that every man I've ever asked out IS a friend of mine. In every case, because the platonic friendship already exists, I have to mentally battle myself every time because I value our platonic friendship and I have to evaluate the risks.

Sometimes it's not mutual. I get rejected. It fucking hurts. I get it. But fuck, I value the friendship I have with these guys, so life goes back to the way it was before. I make maintaining the friendship I have a priority because I care about it. I would like people I consider friends to also give a fuck about that.

I do have sympathy for those who just feels hurt and want some distance for some time. That's reasonable. What's not reasonable is being a dick to the woman and feeling owed a relationship just because you've been friends, or hell, "friends". If you fall in love with a woman who's already your friend without expecting to, I mean, shit happens, man, I get it. I've been there. What's not cool is faking a friendship with a woman with the sole intent to date her, and that's what a lot of women are condemning here. Don't fake this shit. If you don't want a friendship with her and just want to date her then make that fucking clear. Don't send the wrong signals. We value our friendships so don't pretend to be our friend when all you wanted to do is bone. So what if you get rejected? Feel bad about it for a while, eat a tub of ice cream and cry or something, realize you're probably not compatible anyway and there's plenty of other women out there who may actually be more compatible with you, and move on.

Edited October 3, 2016 by Thor Odinson