Could Birthright have been a better game if fleshed out?

[PearlandDiamonds]

Let's face it. I love Japanese culture alot. However the presentation and world building of fates was mediocre at best. I would love to know more about Hoshido and the people who live in it.

Do you think Birthright could've been a better game?

[Emeraldfox]

I think Fates as a whole could be better with more world building and better writing. The characters are fine but what about the world though.

Revelation should have been the path that explained more things about the continent and Valla.

[Nanima]

The world building is overall pretty lacking, although Hoshdio is worse off than Nohr..

However, an element that made Hoshido more unique was actually removed in the localization.

The Hoshidan sucession was actually set on 'male preference'. In Conquest Hinoka only ascended the throne only because both her brothers were dead, unlike the localization where she planned on passing the crown to Takumi similar to Camilla in Birthright. This was rather important, considering that sexism seems to be somewhat more present in Hoshido than in Nohr: Kagero only became a ninja because her older brother was ill, Yuugiri and Hinoka becoming warriors is seen as improper, Azama teasing Sakura over being a priestess when princesses are meant to be pampered and sheltered..

This also ties in to the subtle classism going on with Hoshido. Notice how all the retainers are noble born, except Oboro and Azama, though the former's parents were apparently very well off before they died.

It makes sense for Hoshido's culture to be more stagnant and backwards than Nohr, since a climate of complete satisfaction leaves less incentive to change things.

[shadowofchaos]

I'd definitely agree that it could have been better in general in many ways.

But another hindrance to what you want, OP, IMHO was the fact that the localization made changes in many small aspects to fit the western perception of Japan rather than what was portrayed as actual Japan of old.

I mean, not everything is pretty since it was Japan of old ... like the successor issue with the above post.

I mean that IS the job of localization... but it creates a lot of disconnect moments with small inconsistencies when you have to deal with that gap.

Edited October 13, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[DarkDestr0yer61]

I think Fates as a whole would have been better if it was fleshed out. Personally, I think Birthright is a few steps up from Awakening in terms of gameplay. And I really like its characters and classes. I feel the same about Conquest, but I like Conquest's gameplay a lot more. If both games were fleshed out in terms of world building and... well, if they were better written, then I would probably consider Conquest, if not Fates, my favorite in the series. I think Birthright's story is mediocre and I don't think things go anyway till like chapter 22. Conquest's story makes Azura and Corrin look so incompetent, but I feel like the pacing is somewhat better....

But yes, world building and fleshing things out would make Fates a lot better... we don't even know the name of the continent.

As for Revelation specifically.... idk what to suggest. I feel like they could have done so much, but it feels like a rushed hollow cash grab in its current state. I feel like a lot needs to be redone in order for me to like it.

Also, what's up with Hinoka? She seriously seems like an after thought and has almost no existence in the story whatsoever.

[PearlandDiamonds]

It is a bit sad seeing fates not have the best going for it in terms of story. I just find it interesting how the gameplay was probably the best in the series yet. (At least imo )

[VincentASM]

Also, what's up with Hinoka? She seriously seems like an after thought and has almost no existence in the story whatsoever.

According to this post, Hinoka didn't exist in the original story draft, so technically she is an afterthought, a result of balancing the Nohrian and Hoshidan siblings.

[Thane]

While I consider Fates to be the worst written game I've ever played, some things are obviously sticking out more than others. Hoshido, for example, and as has already been pointed out, is much less fleshed out than Nohr. We get to hear about their problems, from growing crops to bandits running rampant. It also helps that the few good supports Corrin has that deal with their past is genuinely interesting, connecting both them and Xander and hinting at the life within the fortress and how people first viewed Corrin when they got there. It's not much, but compare this to Hoshido, of which we know next to nothing, and, worse still, is how the Nohrian siblings don't react to anything in Hoshido during Conquest, while Ryouma at least comments on things in Nohr during Birthright - thinking about it, the Hoshidan siblings are all but invisible in Conquest.

Too bad the world doesn't matter in the slightest in the grand scheme of things.

[Augestein]

I can honestly believe that even without having it confirmed. Something just feels *off* about Hinoka in the game. Also, I wasn't aware that the localization removed that aspect of the game, that kind of stinks as I feel that would have been an interesting touch to have in the game.

[shadowofchaos]

It wasn't the localization... it felt like she was written in post-draft in the JP version too.

[Augestein]

I made myself unclear there from trying to answer two things at once.

1) I meant that I can believe that Hinoka wasn't originally supposed to be in the cast. Confirmation or not.

Also:

2) That's a shame that they removed the subtle sexist subtext that was present in the original version that wasn't in the localization.

[Emeraldfox]

2) That's a shame that they removed the subtle sexist subtext that was present in the original version that wasn't in the localization.

Folks might have complained about it and they were probably being safe. It's minor but eyyyyy.

Still, would have been interesting if they left it in. I'm just now learning this, mind you.

[Sunwoo]

Fates as a whole would've benefitted from more world building and less focus on Corrin. The setup for Fates was interesting, two countries at war with each other for what could've been a very long time, recently ignited by the most recent actions. But we don't even really get insight into the action that had even sparked the current war, which is bad. The game also chooses to focus on the boring things that include Corrin rather than letting themselves go focus on something interesting, and this is especially egregious in Revelation, where the entire route focuses on Valla when neither Hoshido nor Nohr were properly developed.

Birthright would've been a better game if fleshed out, but Conquest and Revelation would also be better games if they were fleshed out.

[Sylphid]

Folks might have complained about it and they were probably being safe. It's minor but eyyyyy.

Still, would have been interesting if they left it in. I'm just now learning this, mind you.

Considering all the complaints that existed before we had anything confirmed for the English version (Soleil controversy comes to mind), it makes absolute sense they would go for several safer options.

As for the thread topic, don't really have anything to add that hasn't been said already. Yes, Birthright would have been better with better fleshed world, but so would have been Conquest (and I assume Revelation, though I haven't played that one).

Also, what DarkDestr0yer says about pacing in Birthright and Conquest is absolutely correct. Though I had forgotten all about it until he pointed it out, I remember having some issues with the pacing early on with Conquest, but those pale in comparison to Birthright where very little seems to happen for a rather long while.

[Roflolxp54]

This also ties in to the subtle classism going on with Hoshido. Notice how all the retainers are noble born, except Oboro and Azama, though the former's parents were apparently very well off before they died.

Oboro's family can be considered noble but only because it used to have many political connections, which was the main reason that Oboro's parents were assassinated by Nohrians as explained in Oboro's support with Beruka. It can also be of financial success since Oboro is portrayed as being fashion-savvy and the family's political connections imply that the family business has been successful.

The only thing Azama has going for him is that he's a monk. He only became Hinoka's retainer because he healed her one time when she was injured.

Speaking of Hinoka, I've heard (don't quote me on this) that Kagero was originally supposed to be the older Hoshidan sister (which can make sense given her black hair that can match Mikoto's and having a bust size that rivals Camilla's) and that Hinoka was only added into the story because Kozaki (the artist) loves her design so much that he requested her to be part of the Hoshidan royal family.

Edited October 13, 2016 by Roflolxp54

[shadowofchaos]

Folks might have complained about it and they were probably being safe. It's minor but eyyyyy.

Still, would have been interesting if they left it in. I'm just now learning this, mind you.

Seeing as how the Soleil BS happened, I wasn't surprised they changed it.

[Lightchao42]

Speaking of Hinoka, I've heard (don't quote me on this) that Kagero was originally supposed to be the older Hoshidan sister (which can make sense given her black hair that can match Mikoto's and having a bust size that rivals Camilla's) and that Hinoka was only added into the story because Kozaki (the artist) loves her design so much that he requested her to be part of the Hoshidan royal family.

Kagero originally being a Hoshido princess is just a myth. The developers have said nothing to imply such a thing, and Camilla was in fact specifically designed to contrast Hinoka (whom was designed before Camilla despite being created later). As far as we know, Kagero was always supposed to be Ryoma's retainer.

Edited October 13, 2016 by Lightchao42

[Nanima]

Folks might have complained about it and they were probably being safe. It's minor but eyyyyy.

Still, would have been interesting if they left it in. I'm just now learning this, mind you.

If that was the intention then well.. consider this: We now have three female heirs to all three kingdoms (Camilla in BR, Hinoka in CQ, Azura in RV). And each and every one of them wants to pass on the crown to a male heir (possibly male in Corrin's case, but still), who they consider more capable of it..

So in the end, they have removed plot sexism and accidentally added in implied narrative sexism.

Edited October 13, 2016 by Nanima²

[joshcja]

It might manage to become some sort of mediocre extruded fantasy product visual novel if it was fleshed out.

Pretty much every single map before ch23 would need to be completely redesigned to make it a "good game" though.

[Alastor15243]

It makes sense for Hoshido's culture to be more stagnant and backwards than Nohr, since a climate of complete satisfaction leaves less incentive to change things.

I'd... actually argue the exact opposite to be honest.

It's only when countries are in a time of relative stability that social reform can afford to take place. Look at the countries of the real world: the correlation is almost universally between prosperity and social progress. Nohr should have been the socially backward one. Nobody is going to be working on shaking off the barbaric antiquated gender roles mankind relied upon for thousands of years to survive when mere survival is still very much a daily concern for the average Nohrian citizen. In Hoshido, on the other hand, where food is plentiful, the evils of gender roles cease to be necessary and its citizens should at the very least start questioning them.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Alastor15243

[BANRYU]

If the supports were at least on par with those of Conquest, I'd call it 'good enough'. I still have a lot of beefs that other people in this thread mention (writing, worldbuilding etc) but having better supports would be like... the bare minimum, I think.

There are exceptions, but just SOOO many supports revolve around entirely petty or trivial things...

IE: Rinkah x Hayato = Hayato doesn't like vegetables, Hana x Subaki = dick-measuring contest, Setsuna x most people = Setsuna is an unaware klutz, Azama x most people = Azama is just a dick, etc. etc.

One thing I liked about Awakening is that it was good at fleshing out the tropes that all the characters represented, (even if a lot of THEIR supports were pretty trivial as well lol...) For the most part, I think Conquest carried on its legacy pretty well in that regard... In Birthright, on the other hand, many characters are pretty barebones examples of tropes and made it really hard for me to enjoy BR lol. There's the odd support or even entire character outright that stands out as an exception (Oboro <3), but for the most part they're pretty mehh.

And it sucks because I like most of the BR characters' designs WAY more than most Conquest characters. But what can you do -shrug-

[NekoKnight]

If that was the intention then well.. consider this: We now have three female heirs to all three kingdoms (Camilla in BR, Hinoka in CQ, Azura in RV). And each and every one of them wants to pass on the crown to a male heir (possibly male in Corrin's case, but still), who they consider more capable of it..

So in the end, they have removed plot sexism and accidentally added in implied narrative sexism.

It's actually pretty embarrassing. I could take Camilla abdicating because she's mentally unstable (made worse after the events of Birthright). The other two cases can't be justified, however. Why would/should Azura's cousin take the throne before her (nevermind that there isn't a country left to govern)? Why would the strong willed Hinoka give the throne to her younger brother?

I'd... actually argue the exact opposite to be honest.

It's only when countries are in a time of relative stability that social reform can afford to take place. Look at the countries of the real world: the correlation is almost universally between prosperity and social progress. Nohr should have been the socially backward one. Nobody is going to be working on shaking off the barbaric antiquated gender roles mankind relied upon for thousands of years to survive when mere survival is still very much a daily concern for the average Nohrian citizen. In Hoshido, on the other hand, where food is plentiful, the evils of gender roles cease to be necessary and its citizens should at the very least start questioning them.

Peacetime doesn't always equate to the birth of social reform. Looking at Japan during the Edo period, they had over 2 centuries of relative peace and a class system that survived until foreign influences threatened the sovereignty of the country.

[BANRYU]

It's actually pretty embarrassing. I could take Camilla abdicating because she's mentally unstable (made worse after the events of Birthright). The other two cases can't be justified, however. Why would/should Azura's cousin take the throne before her (nevermind that there isn't a country left to govern)? Why would the strong willed Hinoka give the throne to her younger brother?

...Um... Am I remembering wrong here, or weren't Hinoka and Sakura the only Hoshido heirs left alive after the events of Conquest...?? Hinoka at the very least remains queen after the events of that game I thought, right? Not to undermine the point or anything... (I guess nanima is saying each of the heirs WANTS to pass rule, and knowing Hinoka doesn't really want to I guess that still technically fits)

[Alastor15243]

Peacetime doesn't always equate to the birth of social reform. Looking at Japan during the Edo period, they had over 2 centuries of relative peace and a class system that survived until foreign influences threatened the sovereignty of the country.

It's not peacetime that's an issue, it's prosperity. It's already unlikely that these changes would have shown up in a medieval society where most jobs were still extremely dangerous hard labor (It's no coincidence that the feminist revolution didn't take place until various advancements in modern technology made the average workplace stop being actively hostile and made taking care of children cease to be a full time job), I'm just saying that the country where life is more comfortable is definitely not the least likely to abandon strict gender roles.

Life sucked back then. The entire reason gender roles exist is because women are the limiting factor on reproduction and men are therefore biologically far more expendable. Natural selection rewarded us for nearly our entire existence for being sexist pricks and labeling all the stuff even slightly likely to get us killed or seriously injured "man's work" while keeping women in the (relative) safety of the domestic life. Using men as cannon fodder and making women focus on making babies while that was still dangerous to begin with and childhood mortality rates were still high was one of our greatest survival advantages, and nature did not take kindly to any even marginal efforts to change that until life had relatively stabilized in the modern era.

So if I had to guess which country has made any progress towards gender equality, I'd probably pick the one where people aren't constantly starving.

As for the whole Azura, Camilla and Hinoka abdicating thing... I'm a bit confused, I'm wondering if somebody can clarify this for me: If Hinoka only becoming queen as a last resort was actual sexism in the Japanese version, why was Mikoto, who doesn't even have Hoshidan royal blood, allowed to remain queen even after Ryoma came of age?

Edited October 19, 2016 by Alastor15243

[NekoKnight]

...Um... Am I remembering wrong here, or weren't Hinoka and Sakura the only Hoshido heirs left alive after the events of Conquest...?? Hinoka at the very least remains queen after the events of that game I thought, right? Not to undermine the point or anything... (I guess nanima is saying each of the heirs WANTS to pass rule, and knowing Hinoka doesn't really want to I guess that still technically fits)

I was trusting Nanima's word, because I didn't play the localized version of Birthright. I don't know what was said or when. Someone want to source this?

It's not peacetime that's an issue, it's prosperity. It's already unlikely that these changes would have shown up in a medieval society where most jobs were still extremely dangerous hard labor (It's no coincidence that the feminist revolution didn't take place until various advancements in modern technology made the average workplace stop being actively hostile and made taking care of children cease to be a full time job), I'm just saying that the country where life is more comfortable is definitely not the least likely to abandon strict gender roles.

Life sucked back then. The entire reason gender roles exist is because women are the limiting factor on reproduction and men are therefore biologically far more expendable. Natural selection rewarded us for nearly our entire existence for being sexist pricks and labeling all the stuff even slightly likely to get us killed or seriously injured "man's work" while keeping women in the (relative) safety of the domestic life. Using men as cannon fodder and making women focus on making babies while that was still dangerous to begin with and childhood mortality rates were still high was one of our greatest survival advantages, and nature did not take kindly to any even marginal efforts to change that until life had relatively stabilized in the modern era.

So if I had to guess which country has made any progress towards gender equality, I'd probably pick the one where people aren't constantly starving.

How do you define prosperous though? We know Hoshido is prosperous compared to Nohrdor but that's not much competition. Hoshido is still presumably a agrarian society with an ingrained class system (or at least a distinction between high and low birth) which mirrors Japan's actual past. I know we're just discussing the concept of social reform and its relation to prosperity, but if you want to apply it to the game, perhaps Hoshido is the more realistic kingdom.

As for the whole Azura, Camilla and Hinoka abdicating thing... I'm a bit confused, I'm wondering if somebody can clarify this for me: If Hinoka only becoming queen as a last resort was actual sexism in the Japanese version, why was Mikoto, who doesn't even have Hoshidan royal blood, allowed to remain queen even after Ryoma came of age?

It doesn't make any sense. Mikoto doesn't even have Hoshidan blood, let alone Hoshidan royal blood. The throne would never pass to Mikoto and Ryoma is well past the age to require a regent. The meta excuse is that they probably wanted the Hoshidan siblings to mirror the Nohrian ones as much as possible and didn't consider that by their own world-building, Ryoma should be a king, not a prince.

So I'm going to headcanon that Ryoma is the King Robert of Hoshido and he lets his mother handle state affairs while he's off hunting Nosferatu.