Should conquest's approach to skills be the norm from here on out?

[Alastor15243]

So, I'll be perfectly honest: I've been waiting for the enemies to have skills taken seriously basically since I played Path of Radiance and skills were introduced. I felt that once they added skills to the game, they should've had the enemies have skills too to add another potential source of difficulty as opposed to just cheaply inflating enemy stats.

Awakening was kind of a start, and honestly it's one of the only reasons I can tolerate playing Lunatic+, but there was still no intentional design behind the skill distribution. It was either just randomly giving enemies skills their class might have, or randomizing a bunch of random overpowered skills to throw at you.

Conquest is the first time they've even attempted to do enemy skills properly, and they hit it out of the park so damned well that I absolutely think that this has to be a staple. If they don't do this multi-game structure again, I think that the skills should either be a further option (enable/disable enemy skills, chosen along with difficulty and classic/casual/phoenix) or simply automatically be in the game on any difficulty above normal.

But I've actually heard some people say that they dislike the skills in conquest, or even the concept of the enemy having skills in general, as they find it annoying. I really don't agree, but I was curious what people thought over here. What do you guys think about Conquest's use of skills and whether or not you'd like to see this sort of thing in the future?

[Agro]

Conquest's gameplay is perfect. Sometimes gimmicky but the enemy skills were done really well. I'd love to see another game like it.

[Rezzy]

I don't mind bosses and monster-type classes having skills they would otherwise not have access to, but it bugs me when enemy units have things they shouldn't have access to, like ninja-lunge chains.

[Gradivus.]

Yes, and do keep enemies with skills their class can't have. I don't want to see stuff like long lunge chains, but that's not because "class can't obtain skill" and more because it's just one of the skill combos that is unfun to deal with. A few lunge enemies here and there are cool, just don't make me deal with five at once or shit like that.

Edited October 25, 2016 by Gradivus.

[MCProductions]

Yes, and do keep enemies with skills their class can't have. I don't want to see stuff like long lunge chains, but that's not because "class can't obtain skill" and more because it's just one of the skill combos that is unfun to deal with. A few lunge enemies here and there are cool, just don't make me deal with five at once or shit like that.

This pretty much. I also like the enemy having access to every resource the player does, and Conquest does that so damn well.

[NekoKnight]

I don't mind bosses and monster-type classes having skills they would otherwise not have access to, but it bugs me when enemy units have things they shouldn't have access to, like ninja-lunge chains.

Yes, and do keep enemies with skills their class can't have. I don't want to see stuff like long lunge chains, but that's not because "class can't obtain skill" and more because "it's unfun to deal with". A few lunge enemies here and there are cool, just don't make me deal with five at once or shit like that.

Perhaps Lunge should always have been on Ninjas? I don't recall seeing any enemy Wyvern units with the skill.

I think it's okay for enemy units to have a variety of skills (even skills outside their normal availability) but like Gradivus said, the end goal should be that the game is fun/appropriately challenging. Enemies with lunge/poison strike/four fangs are not fun to fight.

[eclipse]

Some of them were brilliant, like Malefic Aura Diviners. Others were not, like the Seal skills being spammed in Chapter 20 Conquest.

[Alastor15243]

Some of them were brilliant, like Malefic Aura Diviners. Others were not, like the Seal skills being spammed in Chapter 20 Conquest.

...Heh. I have a bit of a soft spot for that little gimmick because in my narrative LP I got really lucky and it made perfect sense for them to have those skills because in my version it wasn't some ridiculous petty challenge but a desperate high-stakes stall for time.

But I suppose that gimmick could be annoying to some people.

[eclipse]

...Heh. I have a bit of a soft spot for that little gimmick because in my narrative LP I got really lucky and it made perfect sense for them to have those skills because in my version it wasn't some ridiculous petty challenge but a desperate high-stakes stall for time.

But I suppose that gimmick could be annoying to some people.

I don't mind a few Seal skills here and there (like Chapter 10) - it tells me to prioritize those enemies on PP. When it's most of the map, it becomes "stat inflation, the game, the sequel," just with slightly lower enemy stats, and higher benchmarks for the player.

[Alastor15243]

I don't mind a few Seal skills here and there (like Chapter 10) - it tells me to prioritize those enemies on PP. When it's most of the map, it becomes "stat inflation, the game, the sequel," just with slightly lower enemy stats, and higher benchmarks for the player.

What I find it boils down to is forcing you to use your strongest units who can one-round and taking them all out before they can even activate the skills. I wish they'd have focused less on spamming them and more on making them difficult to one-round.

[Brand_Of_The_Exalt]

Conquest's gameplay is so good that they should continue with this IMO. He's very gimmicky (I love that), so it forces you to use your units's strength, some of your units are so frail that they can be OHKO'd or two hits KO'd which is amazing and should stay that way (because seeing a mage survive 3-4 hits in some classical FE was stupid when you think about it), and enemies having skills forces you to adapt the way you play (like Counter on Snipers)

[Topaz Light]

I voted yes, but more specifically, my opinion is that, in future games that implement skills 3DSFE-style, they should continue working skills into enemy setups this way. Obviously, it should be adjusted based on what kind of skill system the game uses, but I definitely think that Skills should be something that the enemy also has frequent access to if they're going to be a major game mechanic.

[ChibiToastExplosion]

TBH I really wish FE would go back to having no skills at all, for either the player or enemies. Conquest was amazing, but, still.

[NinjaMonkey]

I don't even like how Awakening did it, so no.

[Pretty Cool Guy]

Whoops I started talking about player skills.

Enemy skills in Conquest are great. It's a neat way of adding challenge without stat inflation.

Edited October 26, 2016 by Pretty Cool Guy

[Topaz Light]

TBH I really wish FE would go back to having no skills at all, for either the player or enemies. Conquest was amazing, but, still.

I can kinda relate to this, in that I would like to see another Fire Emblem game without Skills (although I don't think Skills should be banned from ever appearing in the series again or anything). My personal Skill preferences lean towards the way the Jugdral and Tellius games handled them.

In regards to this specific topic, though, my thought is that, in Fire Emblem games that use the 3DSFE-style Skill System, they should give plenty of Skills to enemies, too, a la Conquest. It kinda makes things unbalanced in favor of the player when only you have access to Skills, but not the enemies you're fighting. And besides, part of what makes Fire Emblem distinct (in my opinion) is that the enemies you battle are constructed and armed with the same resources you have, so it stands to reason, I feel, that Skills should be something given to both sides if they're present in the game.

[Alastor15243]

I personally have difficulty sympathizing with a desire to go back to not having skills, because honestly that's just removing potential dimensions from strategy, which I don't think is a good thing. Doesn't mean the skillless games are bad, but I consider it a point against them, or at least now I do. Before the skillless games had an advantage in that the player and the enemy were on more even footing, but that plus-side is rendered meaningless by proper enemy skill use that IS has just established they're capable of doing well. But also I don't think we're likely to see skills removed again in the future, because they're simultaneously a way to add more strategic depth for the hardcore players and a way to add fluff and spectacle for casuals who want to steamroll through the game, so I don't think IS will consider it in their best interest to remove them (especially since the last time they tried that we got the DS games).

Granted, one aesthetic irk I have about the modern skill system relying on the ability to reclass (which I otherwise adore) is that it tends to make cutscenes weird in that nobody's allowed to be on their mounts (which makes stuff like the earthquake scene in Birthright laughable if you're playing a flying class), but honestly I'm only going to legitimately complain about that if it ever undermines a good story.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I didn't like how Awakening did it; randomly generated skills is lazy design and I don't find it very compelling. But I loved how Fates handled enemy skills. You could really see the thought put into enemy setups in a way FE has rarely done in the past, and skills were a big part of that (as were formations and AI wakeup settings). Going back and playing other FEs and watching how easily enemies are manipulated really drives this home for me.

I may be in the minority but really liked Lunge chains, since there were so many valid ways to deal with them (find someone who could tank them, have someone who OHKOs on a counter, or use freeze/entrap/etc.). But if you just charged blindly they'd wreck you. That's really what I want, for FE to make me think about how to approach situations, instead of "throw a big ball of stats at the problem".

[TheCaptain]

I like how they implimented skills on enemies, but I think we need a FE9/10 limit on skills besides the five slots, just because not all skills are created equal, and they really shouldnt be treated as such. That really applies more to the player than enemies, though, so long as they are balanced properly, so yeah, Conquest works well enough.

[NekoKnight]

How would people feel about class skills being locked to the class? Less customization to be sure, but skills could actually be used to balance classes and give more distinct niches.

[Rezzy]

How would people feel about class skills being locked to the class? Less customization to be sure, but skills could actually be used to balance classes and give more distinct niches.

I would support this and limited reclass options. Maybe every unit has access to one other class, without the endless friend and lover seals. That way you can still get a decent assortment of skills for each character, but it's not the endless everything for everybody that we have now.

[NekoKnight]

I would support this and limited reclass options. Maybe every unit has access to one other class, without the endless friend and lover seals. That way you can still get a decent assortment of skills for each character, but it's not the endless everything for everybody that we have now.

Another way to go about it would be to have each class have a signature skill (Astra for Swordmasters, Wary Fighter for Generals) exclusive to them that defines their play style but still have a variety of weaker support skills that can be freely swapped/collected.

[Locke087]

I'm not voting no because I think conquest skill system is bad ( far from it conquest skill system is great), i'm voting no because I am again stagnation in the series and I feel the perfect system is somewhere in between radiant dawn and conquest.

I also feel that there still a number of skills that are worthless to totally stupid, I feel there's too many skills that works basically like a second critical. Really everyone of the kill skills besides Sol and Astra (which actually has a second use in fates in that it fills the guard gauge) needs to go or be reworked to be more then a extra crit at least (like Sol and Astra) or condensed to just Luna (The most reliable one that applies to the most units). Some skills are spread so thin there kind of worthless (see shove, or shelter in birthright). Some skills just take up space and just add little waisted stat boost (not saying the skills are bad but saying that these type of skills should be reflected in class growths instead). Personal skills can stand for major improvements but are a good idea.

That being said Fates had set of really good ideas namely, the blow skills, seal defense and speed (these are the only seals worth mentioning seal attack and magic aren't very good), Swap(never found a use for it but it's a cool idea), Lunge (way more useful to the enemy than the player this skill was definitely given to the wrong class), Wary Fighter, Trample (really cool idea they should expound on this skill), Life or Death (again cool idea should be expanded on), Draconic Hex, Live to Serve, Inspiration (cool idea but should be expanded on currently not that effective), Poison Strike (needs to be nerfed so that it only activates when you're actually hit, there also shouldn't be a second skill like grizzly wound that does the same thing), Savage blow, I do like the separation of Counters and the changes to them, I love the changes to Vantage, and Breaker skills are are are pretty cool as well.

I think that the Learning system should similar to Radiant Dawn. I also think some skills from Radiant Dawn/Path of Radiance should return, namely Canto(which is there but prevents horseback units from a equipping as many skills that and enemies of canto is scary), Steal (please make thieves great again), Disarm, Cancel, Adept, Wraith, Daunt, Resolve, Shade/Stillness, Provoke, Nihil, and to a lesser extent Parity, Fortune, and Nullify.

I also like them to come out with new cool and reliable skills as you can see from my list here I like skills that I can actually apply to my strategy so prefer skills that are 100% reliable, but Disarm, Cancel, Adept, and Fates Astra & Sol are the type of activation skills I can get down with they tend to be more reliable and serve to be more than just an extra critical.

Edited October 28, 2016 by Locke087

[Alastor15243]

How would people feel about class skills being locked to the class? Less customization to be sure, but skills could actually be used to balance classes and give more distinct niches.

I'd be against this mostly because it would kill (or at least gravely wound) customization, but I would be in favor of each advanced class having one class-locked skill. That would also allow for skills that only make sense when used in a specific class, like skills that specifically imply the use of something other classes don't have (like the original name for Savage Blow, Deadly Breath).

[Brand_Of_The_Exalt]

How would people feel about class skills being locked to the class? Less customization to be sure, but skills could actually be used to balance classes and give more distinct niches.

I wouldn't support that, mostly because some characters love skills that may not be in their first class, so it would basically remove some niches instead of making them more distinct, because units in the same class may be very different, and that's often the case in Fates (like Kaze, Saizo and Kagero, Peri & Xander, Odin and Nyx, Selena & Inigo, Setsuna & Takumi, etc etc).

Furthermore, I like reclassing a lot during my playthroughs in Fates, it's always interesting and fun to use E-rank weapons late-game, or to use characters in classes they were not planned for, and it adds a lot of possibilities and thus make each run more unique.

Edited October 28, 2016 by Brand_Of_The_Exalt