Ensemble Mafia - N5

[Hober Mallow]

I'm... not though.

That's even worse...

How does confirming that there are three mafia in the game help us at all? How does it help us any more than simply taking his word for it for now. It's pretty common for there to be 3 mafia in this size game. If we lynch 3 and the game is still going, then Ele is condemned either way.

His role doesn't give us much of an advantage regardless.

[Blitz]

@Blitz: are you actually leaning towards town on Proto or not, even if you think this isn't outlandish for scum Proto? I get what you're saying but working out what your stance is on him properly is rough.

Sorry, I meant to say I am pretty sure he is town, if he loses activity in the later phases, go after him, or he is good

[Green Poet]

Also confirmed no hostile ITP Kreygasm.

This is why it's beneficial. With three hostile, we can rule out a two-man scumteam + SK because of the ridiculous odds stacked against mafia.

It really feels like you're just continually trying to find reasons as to how I could be scum each time I post something, Mallow :|

[Refa]

I can see Spinal's point about it being personality and I think GP is trying too hard to pull the 'optimal lynch' card in the quoted case. I'm honestly wrecked so unless anyone has questions for me I'm probably just going to go and collapse in a few minutes.

This is the one thing that bugs me because I don't get why Elemina is an optimal lynch (for reasons other than just scumreading the slot). Do you think that Town!GP would be so focused on this? From my impressions, her vote wasn't a "not me over me", it was more of a "this is the best lynch" which seems weird because I still don't know what her read on Elemina's content is.

@Spinal- What do you think of my case on Elemina?

[Refa]

Okay, I should probably clarify. I don't think confirming numbers is all that important, and it's not worth lynching someone over on its own. When I started the game, I was under the assumption that it'd be 10 town/3 mafia, so Elemina's claim didn't really change much for me.

[Green Poet]

With three hostile, we can rule out a three-man scumteam + SK because a two-man scumteam + SK is too unfavorable to mafia

whoops, meant to say it like this.

[Hober Mallow]

This is why it's beneficial. With three hostile, we can rule out a two-man scumteam + SK because of the ridiculous odds stacked against mafia.

It really feels like you're just continually trying to find reasons as to how I could be scum each time I post something, Mallow :|

I just think you're a member of the mafia (manners) with no real direction to go. That information benefits us so extraordinarily little and I don't think you truly believe otherwise.

[Green Poet]

Seriously, think about it like this.

Scum!GP baits Ele into claiming (truthfully) numbers informed. So this hypothetical scumteam now knows that Ele is now nothing but a VT.

Why would scum!GP refocus and turn around what was effectively a null read on Ele and do anything to try to get him lynched? He is automatically now the worst mislynch for scum because scum!GP know he's VT. Literally anyone else is a better mislynch for scum!me to orchestrate. Why go for this lowest-value mislynch, on the person whose towniness I just corroborated by talking about how I was cleared as town in another game with his role?

[Green Poet]

That's just so much unnecessary effort on the part of scum!me to try and reverse everyone's thinking that I myself constructed of how Ele must be town based on role, for the reward of mislynching an effective VT. Why would scum do this?

[charlie_]

Okay, I should probably clarify. I don't think confirming numbers is all that important, and it's not worth lynching someone over on its own. When I started the game, I was under the assumption that it'd be 10 town/3 mafia, so Elemina's claim didn't really change much for me.

This is what I mean, I don't think confirming numbers should ever be a factor in it but GP's acting like its a big selling point. I don't think town!GP goes about it this way.

Scum GP's motivation here would be getting on the biggest counterwagon, especially when I've also expressed interest.

[Ken Masters]

@Spinal- What do you think of my case on Elemina?

It's a valid one.

All of your points are well founded on actions Elemina did, that are harmful to the Town.

I just can't agree with your final conclusion. I extracted two big points that your case revolves around: Elemina's longshots to establish a scummy behaviour on his targets, and Elemina's lack of change of thoughts.

Your first point, to me, further proves that Elemina has a behavioural pattern: Jumping to conclusions. It happens in every single one of his posts. As I said to Blitz, had it been a selective pattern, it would mean Elemina was choosing to be deliberately unfair to specific targets. Instead, he's unfair to everyone. Harmful yes, but not inherently an indicator of scummyness.

The second point I agree with... at a certain extent. His vote has changed a lot. His views not, I agree with that.

Yes. I think your case is valid and I wouldn't call you out because it's perfectly reasonable to call Elemina harmful to the Town.

I just don't think that daid actions are personality traits based on how uniform and consistent they are since the start of the game.

[Hober Mallow]

That's just so much unnecessary effort on the part of scum!me to try and reverse everyone's thinking that I myself constructed of how Ele must be town based on role, for the reward of mislynching an effective VT. Why would scum do this?

Because right now it's not looking like there's going to be an alternative mislynch. You probably feel Ele is your best bet. scum!GP is is backtracking for self preservation.

[Ken Masters]

God, phone typing it's awful. Meant to say " I just don't think said actions are more than bad personality traits"

[Blitz]

SB and Refa, if you are still here(for SB), do you think if one of the 2 turns up scum, the other is very likely town?

[Refa]

Spinal, my issue is that I don't feel like they're being unfair to everyone? The cases on people who had serious issues with a slot are a lot more aggressive than the other cases, such as the one on Ryker (I don't remember Elemina's earlier cases off the top of my head, but that one in particular stood out to me).

Blitz, I can't see them being scumbuddies after that last exchange. GP seemed genuinely exasperated which I doubt would happen if they were buddies.

[Refa]

*the Elemina slot, not a slot

[yedi]

long catch up post incoming. Apologies for the wall but yall should blame everyone else for being unnecesarily active....

while I disagreed with Green Poet's general push on Ranmaru, he continually makes insight that's indicative of a townie tryna figure out the game. Starting with his Irony townread, and then later on he mentions that he felt the Ryker v Spiral argument was more about who was correct as opposed to who was scum which is the same way I read it.

I also like refa's confusion about GP's push on ranmaru. GP's post about ran being informed was weird and it doesn't really makes sense that informed scumRan would make it obvious in his first few posts that he had insider info. like why would he do that at all, that point doesn't really make sense.

Though I kinda understand where GP is coming from with his push, he seems to not understand how or why Ele is playing the way he does. His scumread on ele feels genuine despite me wholeheartedly disagreeing with it

I initally dislike Blitz, he seemed to be making sparse comments on a bunch of stuff and asking questions, but it doesn't seem like he ever does anything with the responses he gets. He comments on this but never really says what that makes him feel about players' slots, his posts thus far has been pretty devoid of reads. It's easy for scum to feign activity early on like that

also fwiw I've pretty much just been ignoring all of Irony's post. I'm just too confident that slot is newbtown

happy to see Ryker's and Ele's early votes on Blitz. also happy to see yolo join the wagon eventually... I wonder why that wagon died down

I initially didn't mind Rainbow's initial post dismissing his vote on Ryker but I kinda dislike the reasoning he gave in his next post a day later regarding that action. His reasoning was almost verbatim what Blitz said which I find odd. Either Blitz already knew what was going through Rainbow's head, which is ridic or Rainbow is just parroting Blitz's earlier defense (which I find gross).

I don't like Rainbow even more because he kinda called out Irony for his early post. Rainbow also read GP's post about it and agreed that he saw Irony as newb, but for some reason he think's it's newbscum instead of newbtown and I don't really understand how he could reach that conclusion

yea continuing to read rainbow's wall of text I'm not really a big fan on his pushes in general. He latches on to Ryker based off reasoning that other people had already mentioned in thread. im kinda getting the sense that he's just latching on to what's popular in thread. i also just generally dislike all his reads.

sidenote about Ryker: so I did agree that this slot looked gross in his argument with spiral. Or at least spinal felt more genuine when reading the conversation. Also he's playing considerably differently than he did in the last game I played with him as town, so I've been a lil bit skeptical. However as I'm reading now, I find myself agreeing with most of his points/reads (actually similar to the last game we played). He also seems to support pushing inactives which is the same as how he was in our last game. I also did like his reasoning for his change of behavior so I'm ok with this slot for now.

skimming Rainbow's long reads post and im pretty much heavily disagree with all his main scumreads. meh

same with Blitz's long catch up post. seems like there are a lot of questions here but not much insight bout what he things of various slots.

Ok now I see Blitz pushing HM. I kinda like his points about HM taking a more passive approach to the game. Not sure if that makes me like Blitz's slot more though.

gotta say I really like GP. especially his #232

@Hober Mallow, I don't udnerstand your GP vote in #248

the more i read the more i think spinal vs ryker was as bad as it I thought intially. feels like there are other slots that are more gross.

after Rainbow's #274 i'm curious to see what he feels about Elemina

@Ryker, interesting, I didn't consider the whole Rainbow keeping his options open by only having null/scum reads. I'm gonna go back to that post. anyway, you should be able to parse how I feel about that slot based off what I've already written

aiight im starting to skim again cuz this reread is taking far too fucking long

yea I don;t like Blitz. ##vote: Blitz

I dislike Kirsche's reads in his #326 but his reasonign seems real genuine. I skimmed this post earlier and thought the same thing. Specifically his reasoning for not thinking Ele is scum because of Ele's Refa push.

HM and Blitz both scum read each other. not sure what I make of this yet since I dislike both slots (Blitz considerably more). I actually generally like HM's #335. I will note that it seems like Blitz heavily scumreads HM but isn't pushing him

still don't like Rainbow. especially the way he's been pushing Elemina recently. actually this has felt like a trend all game, that Rainbow just latches onto ideas that are popular in thread. He kinda makes large posts that seem to be just be regurgitating other peoples reasoning

ok I'm kinda caught up. @Elemina, I forgot to focus on SB but after skimming his posts, theres not much I'm getting from that slot. I line up more on your side in your argument with him but i'm not seeing anything that screams scum to me.

so in conclusion...

I really want to lynch:

Blitz, Rainbow

I guess I'd be ok with:

HM

there are 1-2 slots that I got my eye on currently but imma keep that under wraps for now.

actually ##unvote, ##vote: Rainbow

quick post about Elemina incoming

[🔥YOLOSWAG🔥]

no time to read indepth tonight

will move vote if necessary. do we need a majority?

VOTE RAINBOW. IF NOT HIM GO GREEN POET

[Refa]

we don't

@yedi- i'm cool with your post and its reasoning, but it'd help me out a lot if you had a tl,dr; of your main issues with your scumreads. it's kind of hard for me to parse through and compare them as is.

[yedi]

omfg I hate quoting shit on this site

[Blitz]

@Yedi,

Either you didn't actually read any of my later posts, or you feel like pushing me will help out one of you buddies. You are not going to get either me of Proto lynched today, so I suggest you better look into a target you can get lynched

First of all, Proto is my brother, I have a very good idea on how he thinks and he has a very good idea on how I think, if our thoughts align, it is not a coincidence

Regarding my reads, I have no intention of outing what I did not want to out, but I outed reads on more than half the game, so, what is your point about me not having reads?

aiight im starting to skim again cuz this reread is taking far too fucking long

yea I don;t like Blitz. ##vote: Blitz

any your reason for voting me is ????

HM and Blitz both scum read each other. not sure what I make of this yet since I dislike both slots (Blitz considerably more). I actually generally like HM's #335. I will note that it seems like Blitz heavily scumreads HM but isn't pushing him

how is this not pushing Hober Mallow?

happy to see Ryker's and Ele's early votes on Blitz. also happy to see yolo join the wagon eventually... I wonder why that wagon died down"

maybe because they lacked a case, like you are doing now.

[Blitz]

I haven't looked at GP closely besides my initial read but that's enough for me. how people are reacting to Irony's slot is more important to me

and what did you find regarding it?

Kirsche, why is Elemina town for trying to lynch me? They don't know who I am and it's not like I'm particularly townie in this individual game either.

valid question, Kirsche should answer it

Who's on board with a Mallow lynch?

I am, but not before Elemina

Look at that, apparently I missed a roleclaim from Blitz. Time to read... but I don't have time yet uggh ;>;

how the heck did you miss my first post in the game...?

anyways, I am gonna stop at this point and take a break

[yedi]

wrt Elemina, it's pretty clear that many of his pushes / questions / etc have a thought process behind them. Even if you disagree with things he does I think the fact that you can track what Elemina was thinking before he does or says something makes me read him as town.

of course you guys remember Elemina's silly initial read post at the beginning of the game. The one that he didn't initially explain, but he eventually does come back to explain why he had those scum reads and why eh felt the need to push them early on.

But more importantly I want to direct you guys to 2 examples --

First Elemina's informant claim:

Let me claim right now. I am an informed townie with the knowledge that there are 3 members hostile to the town and 10 town. It's why I posted the list of three people, but since this is my first time with this role, didn't think I'd need to claim it outright. Also confirmed with the mod to see if I get anything else, and I don't, so I think it's fine that I claim this now. My flavor claim is Shinya.

Reads in a bit.

He claims this like halfway through the Day. If you look at this exchange between him and GP day 1, it's clear that his informed nature was on his mind:

Why? You sound as if you're informed and unwilling to share, or just informed scum

What makes you think that?

He specifically asks GP why he brought up the informed thing. If I was town with the same role I'd also be pretty wary of the fact that someone mentioned this so early in the game.

Example 2, Ele's Irony and GP reads:

Town Read Explanations:

...

I will say here and now that I agreed with Green Poet's town read of Irony, I came to the same conclusion but did not mention it to see how others reacted. Scum would be more cautious and would not want to modkill themselves, especially as newbie scum. Newbie town would do things without thought, and Irony has become townier after providing content and being active. I didn't like him keeping his vote on me but I liked his explanation about the informed stuff, it makes sense since I do have an informed role but didn't think I'd need to out it immediately.

...

I agree with Yedi and Green Poet on their analysis of Irony being town. I came to the same conclusion of Irony being town for editting his post, but did not mention anything to see how others would interact with him. He's become even townier after becoming free-er and giving opinions. He's been active and helpful, and cooperative.

Oops, I confused my irony reasoning with being Green poet reasoning. To clarify, Green Poet is townie because of his reaction to me, and his town read on Irony. I came to the same conclusion as him. It also makes sense that Refa is scum trying to paint GP as scum for something that he worded wrong. Yet his conclusion makes sense along with my role and what I did early game. Green Poet town.

Later in the day, Ele mentions that he agrees with the Irony town reasoning the GP provided. While he never explicitly mentioned that he agreed with it earlier when GP made the post, it's clear that he had a similar thought process.

Look at this post where he asks GP for his Irony read:

Green Poet was just for being first poster. I think scum want to have an early advantage, therefore I thought it's possible he may be scum. Although I did consider him voting Spinal as a partner link but it's weak. I put Spinal in the list since he didn't vote and it showed he didn't care to progress the phase, and now seems to be posturing rather than trying to help the phase. Rainbow I felt had no reason to state that Ryker was suspicious and then say it was a joke at the end. So it seemed fake.

What is your read on Irony?

GP then makes the Irony town post, soon after Elemina asks others about these reads

Blitz: Read on Green Poet?

Refa: Read on Green Poet and Irony?

Just from these posts it seems to me that Ele made observations and have been trying to query town to see if they could organically come up with the same observations. This is the kind of shit I do as well to town read people because if they're making similar organic observations as I, it's clear they're actively reading the thread from a scumhunting perspective like I am.

these examples show a trail of Ele's thought process that read genuine to me.

anyway besides all that I've just generally liked Ele's posts except for his Refa push which i don't really get. I'm not sure why Ele would be the priority over slots that have talked less and have provided only a lil bit of insight or has just been bandwagoning on popular pushes.

aiight ive spent too much time in this thread

[yedi]

@refa

I dislike Rainbow because the majority of his posts feel like he's just regurgitating what other people have been saying in thread. His scumread on Ryker and then Elemina came at opportunistic times when the thread had already started to move in those directions. And he made large posts backing up these reads but from what i saw they were basically points that everyone else had initially made. Feels opportunistic and scummy.

Same with how it seemed like he was parroting Blitz's reasoning when defending himself about the whole dismissing his own RVS vote thing. this interaction felt off. I also disliked his newbscum reasoning for Irony which doesn't make sense to me and picking on Irony seems like an easy target for scum.

also just cuz I generally don't like his reads.

I dislike Blitz because many of his posts (albeit mostly the early ones) have him making statements and asking questions but it doesn't feel like he's drawing any conclusions off of these statements / questions. Like I couldn't figure out what his reads were despite having read a bunch of his content. it's pretty easy for scum to just feign activity in this way without committing to shit.

I did like however like Blitz's post about HM though (with reasoning that someone else followed up on). Though from what I remember he didn't vote HM off of it which I was hoping he would

also just cuz I generally don't like his reads.

[yedi]

@Yedi,

Either you didn't actually read any of my later posts, or you feel like pushing me will help out one of you buddies. You are not going to get either me of Proto lynched today, so I suggest you better look into a target you can get lynched

First of all, Proto is my brother, I have a very good idea on how he thinks and he has a very good idea on how I think, if our thoughts align, it is not a coincidence

Regarding my reads, I have no intention of outing what I did not want to out, but I outed reads on more than half the game, so, what is your point about me not having reads?

any your reason for voting me is ????

how is this not pushing Hober Mallow?

maybe because they lacked a case, like you are doing now.

@Yedi,

Either you didn't actually read any of my later posts, or you feel like pushing me will help out one of you buddies. You are not going to get either me of Proto lynched today, so I suggest you better look into a target you can get lynched

tbf i did start skimming the later shit.

but wait a sec, why are you opposed to a Rainbow/Proto lynch...? are you that confident that he's town? and if so why.

also, you think I'm scum?

First of all, Proto is my brother, I have a very good idea on how he thinks and he has a very good idea on how I think, if our thoughts align, it is not a coincidence

hm

Regarding my reads, I have no intention of outing what I did not want to out, but I outed reads on more than half the game, so, what is your point about me not having reads?

ok, where did you provide reads on half the game?

how is this not pushing Hober Mallow?

actually this was one of the posts I read that I felt like you explicitly didn't push HM. and what I mean by push is that you said a lot of stuff about how you disliked his slot however that post is missing a vote.

maybe because they lacked a case, like you are doing now.

my case / thought process is right there in my large post and my tldr post. Not sure why you think I dislike your slot for no reason.