Ensemble Mafia - N5

[Elieson]

Elie, get off my role and look at my other games if you want reference on my roles claims, any game at all, where I claimed my role. They all have something in common. I am not going to expound on this anymore.

and still waiting on you to catch up.

I was just responding to SB yo. Chill

[Kriemhild]

It's okay, Irony, I think you claimed at a good time, tbh, since I don't think it the downsides were significant enough. Though, I would suggest leaving your claim at that and not going into the details. As much as I love analyzing data from roles and actions, we likely are not going to learn much from analyzing this scenario unless we know who Kirsche protected (which we can only subjectively guess), and even then all we'd derive is that his target was Town.

Before I comment more on Irony's D3 posts, I'll try to answer Ryker's question about Irony seeming newbtown. The impression I get from Irony's posts are that of a player who has little to no idea how to scumhunt, while being pressured by other players to contribute productively, which she is trying her best at doing. It's not easy for a new player to meet the expectations of the rest of the players that are all veterans (or at least, significantly more experienced). For example, she avoided voting for the entirety of D1 and only voted in D2 when prompted to, and changed it once her target pointed out why the reasoning isn't strong enough. Her general thoughts also seem rather naive, but sensible, as I'd expect from a new player trying to get the hang of everything.

In fact, her roleclaim also really feels like newbtown to me. She wasn't prompted for a roleclaim, there was no call for a roleblocker, but if she were a newb Town Roleblocker, her decision to roleclaim makes perfect sense. She saw that it was an possibility that was expressed, and wanted to eliminate it from the discussion.

And yes, I do know that it could have been scum doing an excellent job at pretending to be noobish, but honestly her behavior feels too genuine for me to doubt.

Ryker, whatever your posting restriction is, the mods might let you off the hook if you try to adhere to it properly now that you realized that you have it. Don't disappear just yet, please.

Elieson, I think you're delving too deep into role meta (which violates Rule 11). And your reasoning makes it sound like Blitzy's role is inherently negative utility (like Miller, etc), which it isn't. An Insomniac can talk at night when everyone else is silent, and gets to make immediate discussions of the lynch that may end up influencing some of the night action choices, as well as being able to express thoughts before actually getting lynched. Insomniac was always considered a positive ability (even if really weakly positive). Whether the 24 hours silence drawback is bad enough to make it an overall negative ability is a subjective opinion, and in the end, it's Boron who decides whether it's a suitable role for the Town or not (while considering all other roles too).

I have nothing against your points yesterday about Blitzy playing to his scum meta though, just saying.

[Blitz]

ALso your Yedi case doesn't exist as strongly as you say they do because posting scumreads about yedi not pushing his scumreads is almost hypocritical in itself. You asked questions and didn't follow through on them. yedi poked people and didn't either. In yedi's case, he posted half-assed cases on early content, implying that the [scumhunting] intention is there but the effort is not. I disagree with your logic here, but I'm willing to agree to disagree on something you feel so strongly about, since you feel so strongly about it. IMO it's a basic case that'd work well early D1 but it shouldn't be the prolific foundation of a case halfway through the game.

F.O.S. 2.0 Kinda Sorta: YOLOSWAG If you're struggling to cite stuff when you post reads can you try to at least do that so we can understand your train of thought a little bit better?

My case is not about him not pushing scumreads...

I would totally agree with you on this case being weak later on in the game, but Yedi still has not provided any more content after that for me to go off in it and he completely ignored my points on him, meaning his most recent content is still of D1/very early D2.

I still think Yolo is more likely town, but that doesn't mean he gets to not make contributions

I would rather have Hober vigged than waste a lynch on him, but still willing to go after him

Sorry, I am pissed off at a few things, one being my car battery died and I don't have a set of jump starters. I would also rather you pushed me for my reads over my role, which I had no control on...

[charlie_]

I would rather sleep than post in mafia but some fucker hasn't gotten the memo that bonfire night is over.

\\Extension We are miles from agreeing on a lynch. If people aren't going to extend then we need to consolidate. My top three lynches are Yolo Yedi Refesion.

SB: Out of two people, one town and one scum, mods usually sub in the maflord. Considering Elie wasn't put in Mallow's slot when Mallow asked for it and instead put in Refa's slot despite being the second person to ask over 48 hours later is enough to raise eyebrows imo.

I still kind of disagree with the logic but the fact that kirsche got murdered makes me think that Mallow probably looks a little better? I think lynching him today is a crapshoot at the very least because of how yesterday ended.

I also disagree with Proto's analysis of kirsche's doc target because why would you protect the guy who wasn't really being townread and had maybe 6 posts in total? And also iirc he said that he would have to look over our slots again which implies he wasn't sure on his read to begin with. I don't remember anyone being super obvtown on D1 so I have no idea who would get shot. Maybe Ryker after his posts improved? Would need to cross check kirsche's posts again but I'm tired.

SB's issue with my Ryker Unvote Post - First of all, I should probably re-state that the Ryker unvote post was made between meetings on a busy day. I think I did intend to post more, but my response to Ryker was my top priority (yes, Ryker bothered me THAT much in early D1) and I wanted to post whatever I did write before I left for my meeting. I also don't reply to every single post (well, nobody does that), and I don't recall if there were any other significant posts that I wanted to reply to (probably not, because I don't think I dug them up later).

As for why I didn't vote for Green Poet, I never make a post that leaves an active vote if I have not fully caught up with the thread (unless I'm cut by somebody). This is the same reason why I didn't vote in my first D2 post. I'm sorry that this bothers you so much.

As for posts being coherent, I mentioned that because your point was that I was making a big deal about unvoting Ryker. The fact that everything in that post aside from a single paragraph remains coherent when you disregard the fact that I was casing Ryker indicates that all of those stuff were unrelated to my Ryker unvote, and so I don't see why claim that I was making a big deal out of unvoting him.

As for why I waited for Elemina before unvoting... *sigh* they were two different scenarios with different contexts and different behavior patterns, even if there are some similar aspects. I don't consciously calculate all the things I say or do, so while I could try to analyze my own behavior to try deciphering the details of this discrepancy, I don't think it would be a productive use of my time or yours. Unless you genuinely feel like this issue is important, but I have no idea what you're trying to get at here.

Not voting when not caught up is fair I guess, but I think your point about not replying to everything is just arguing semantics here. Regardless, my point about you making a big deal about it is all of the Ryker-related shit in that post and how it was formatted made it feel like you were trying to make a big show of it to make it to try and get credit for your analysis. Admittedly this point isn't as strong as I remember it being but maybe I'm just explaining it badly atm. Remind me to look again when I'm not shattered.

Why is the context different here? Explain it to me, because I don't think this is a waste.

Food now. More later.

[Elieson]

My case is not about him not pushing scumreads...

I would totally agree with you on this case being weak later on in the game, but Yedi still has not provided any more content after that for me to go off in it and he completely ignored my points on him, meaning his most recent content is still of D1/very early D2.

I still think Yolo is more likely town, but that doesn't mean he gets to not make contributions

I would rather have Hober vigged than waste a lynch on him, but still willing to go after him

Sorry, I am pissed off at a few things, one being my car battery died and I don't have a set of jump starters. I would also rather you pushed me for my reads over my role, which I had no control on...

If the game lacks a vig, then we'll be waiting for a long time for that one.

Do you need me to come give you a Jump? I've got a set of cables

[Blitz]

If the game lacks a vig, then we'll be waiting for a long time for that one.

Do you need me to come give you a Jump? I've got a set of cables

I guess, but I still think lynching him won't help out through this phase... (I am still down for him, just not as much) and I do feel that Yedi is scum

you live way too far away, I might be better off buying a set of cables by loaning a car from my cousin. I am waiting on our neighbors to loan me one, which is in his SUV and his dad went out of the house. Lucky for me, I still have my office car, which I can use if I must, but I am not allowed to

[Elemina]

Blitz:

Possibly Ele, Spinal, SB, Ryker, Rainbow. For mechanical reasons he may not have chosen me, but he still townread me so it's still an option. Same thing with Rainbow. Rainbow had quite a few people suspecting him and it carried into D2, so scum probably didn't have him in priority.

He was pushing for Refa and has known reputation on the site. I think it's likely he was killed as second priority to whoever was attempted to be killed N1. It's possible scum have a rolecop and used that on him N1 and knew to kill him N2.

Refa. Irony. (Due to him questioning Irony)

[Elemina]

I'm not relieved with Elie's catch up here. It's lazy and it shows that he never finished the catch up or even vote for Deadline Extension at least. Blitz I really want to know why you have Refa as your #1 town read here.

[Elemina]

To clarify, he was catching up yesterday but didn't finish and should have good conclusions by today. I expected more reads from him.

[Elemina]

@Irony: Why do you trust Refa out of interest? You said "for reasons given before" but the last thing you said about Refa was "I think I trust Refa" without any reasoning. Sorry if I missed something. What do you make of my comments about him?

I think I trusted Refa originally because Refa seemed to have a consistent train of thought about issues regarding their reads on who was Town and who was Mafia. Your thoughts have highlighted aspects of Refa's play that I missed/read when I was too tired to register (to be fair, considering that I have three assignments in this week, I think that's to be expected). I might move Refa into my Null Reads for now, and you into my town reads.

Apologies if I didn't mention it sooner.

[Elieson]

I'm not relieved with Elie's catch up here. It's lazy and it shows that he never finished the catch up or even vote for Deadline Extension at least. Blitz I really want to know why you have Refa as your #1 town read here.

Not being happy with my content/timing, ok

Wanting more of my amazing quality posts, ok

Not being happy that i didnt vote for an extension that i wasnt around for. Wat?

Unless you want to blame rhe other however many non-supporters of the extension too, all i see here is griping (which is justified imo).

Im currently at a roller rink so you aint gettin much fro me for the next while :)

[Elemina]

Fair enough. I figured since you were catching up you may have been around to do so. It's a general problem that I am annoyed with. That shouldn't have happened yet we let it happen.

[Elemina]

ALSO, I just noticed I have received a posting restriction like Elemina. Something, something, something, compliments and kindness.

I however, find it demeaning and will not play long on principle. I am greatly annoyed Elemina was willing to play considering the posting restriction he was forced to deal with. Mine comes accompanied with nothing that should effect the game (like limiting my posts) other than forcing me to give lip service to a posting restriction that I find insulting.

I was greatly annoyed by it too but tried to play within it since I joined this game to play with you guys. I also don't get why you would get that sort of restriction when you haven't been rude or insulting at all?

[Elemina]

Where did THAT come from?

I've said it before I think. I say purely meta since you voted Blitz early. I think you as scum may do that to take advantage. I will say that I have only seen you do it once as scum which caused town to never consider you at all.

[Elemina]

I like this guy, a lot.

Why?

[Blitz]

Elemina, I am pretty sure Elie just wasn't around at that time

Refa is town mainly because his train of logic is fine. Everything he has done can easily be seen from his PoV and I can easily see how his reads changed. I didn't feel this way until the reread, but once I did, I realize, I agreed with everything he said, more or less. Your case on him was entirely wrong and his answers are what I thought of him to have said on the issue (Refa is like my twin brother with shared conscience when it comes to understanding PoVs and we are both very good at reading one another). The only issue I had with him, was that he called Yedi's reads cool, but then again, I don't think he could make sense of the bad formatting, so, he went with calling it cool on a skim. His reads on you makes perfect sense, because you called him scummy over things which I do not think was the case at all. His Kirsche push was the same way and came out of nowhere. His train of thought on going after Kirsche was something I could easily see him doing. In fact, I actually had Kirsche as a scumread for that push, I didn't say anything because of that is how I am. On top of that, he was really frustrated with you and Kirsche pushing him, so, I can see him tipping over and giving up on the game. My meta on him says, if he was scum, he would not have been so frustrated.

As for Elieson, he is doing exactly what town Elieson does (meta) and I have no issues with him. I would prefer if he attacked my play instead of my role, but that is it.

I am gonna have to stop commenting on your filler materials, because you have too many, but, you really need to cut down the number of posts and make longer ones, if you must post all that filler. But I must say, I liked you better when you were silent and stop making so many posts for no reason. Why do you read one line and have to make a post instantly?

Comment on my Yedi case please.

Also, do you think Refa/Elieson would kill the person who is scumreading them like crazy, that just brings more heat to them, no?

[Sunwoo]

I am one step from declaring this entire game to be a universal loss.

The players in this game should keep in mind that I publicly rejected a player in signups because I felt that they lacked respect in general. Players should know better than to test a mod who has already done this with behavioral issues. This is a game and it is supposed to be fun. Those who refuse to abide by the rules are hurting their entire faction, and WILL be blacklisted from any future games I run.

[Paperblade]

Hey guys, I will continue to run the game. I'm already in most of your role PMs, I just need a few people to add me.

[Ryker]

For the record, I see that there are things aimed at me, but I'm going to be out of the thread until my issues have been resolved in private. I'll either be back here to answer or not.

[Kriemhild]

SB, yes, there was a lot of Ryker stuff in that post, because like I said, it did bother me a whole lot. And the last thing I wanted was for Ryker to think his stunt was fine and not a big deal. So yes, I did make a big show of it, directed at Ryker (and spoilered to keep it away from meaningful content). I won't deny that, but I fail to understand why it bothers you so much.

As for the difference in treatment between Ryker and Elemina, alright, let's see. Ryker knew exactly what he was doing when he was triggering the red flags. He acknowledged the issues (Spinal raised most of them, and Green Poet brought up the Blitz vote) while explicitly indicating that he won't address them. Of course, there could scum intent in refusing to contribute to productive discussion, but he was likely fully aware of what he was doing, including the red flags, if this was part of his scumplay. Elemina, on the other hand, was being super aggressive about people and nitpicking at minute details. She did not explicitly dismiss attempts to productive discussion, but rather, she tried to argue against it. And although there could be scum intent in hard-tunneling someone, scum would try to avoid being blatant about it, and wouldn't actively raise red flags in their actions.

So when Ryker made his wall of text, he admitted that he was doing it all on purpose, and revealed his true plan (learning info). Although I still saw it as a terrible thing to do (hence my spoilered wall of text), I acknowledged that it was something that a Townie could try to pull without realizing what a terrible idea it is. Prior to the wallpost, there was always a big ? in Ryker's motivations and he was clearly aware of that, and in his wallpost he explained what the ? was, so there was no point in continuing the case any further, unless his later behavior rekindles it.

On the other hand, Elemina acknowledging her impulsiveness isn't a revelation of her true plans. At most, it would only be a realization that she unintentionally went too far. She never meant for there to be a ? in her motivations nor did she actively try to conceal them. It was only when people called her out on it that she realized that she was being perceived as having scum intent. As such, for her to then explain the cause of these issues is a lot less satisfying. It doesn't release her from the points against her, but she would have to demonstrate that she could overcome her impulsiveness (as opposed to an intentional plan like Ryker) and not get so aggressive and nitpicky.

Finally, I should point out that while Elemina did acknowledge her impulsiveness, she did not, AFAIK (unless I missed something), admit that she went too far. As opposed to Ryker admitting to have deliberately "pushed Spinal's buttons". All Elemina was stating was a possible reason why people perceived her badly, but she did not (and still did not, I think) indicate that she felt her previous behavior to be unwarranted in the slightest. As such, I was hesitant to remove my vote from her until I actually saw genuine effort into scumhunting with a clearer head that isn't focused on digging up dirt to amass molehills into a mountain.

So yeah, Ryker's and Elemina's situations were very different and I think my responses to both of them were justified and reasonable. Admittedly, I did try to cut down on my response to Elemina due to people complaining about me having too fluff and so little content, but otherwise, I believe I was indiscriminate in how I handled them.

[Kriemhild]

Oh, and SB, you have only yourself to blame for my last post being yet another of those fluffposts that you are bothered so much by.

[🔥YOLOSWAG🔥]

i had a hell of a weekend yall. ill be here tomorrow. if anyone has quick questions for me to think on in the meantime throw em my way

is mallow getting replaced or what? its d3 and we have this universal nullscum still chillin and a replacement will just muck things up more. its high time he dies

##vote mallow

[Elemina]

Blitz:

I'm baffled that you scumread Kirsche for that push. Do you generally scumread people and not say anything just because? Anyway, since you bring that up, can you explain why you scumread Kirsche for that? I want to see your thought process and logic on that. I generally agree with you on the Yedi push, especially on point 1. It just shows that he intended to target you without thoroughly reading the thread. Also, he overall seems to show a lack of drive to find scum. I don't think you can call all my posts there filler, except one that is relating to the posting restriction with Ryker. I also disagree with having large posts, but I will try to keep post count down. Just don't expect walls from me. I'll join your Yedi push.

Elieson:

I had a post limit of 16 posts per every 24 hours. If I exceeded that I'd be modkilled.

##Vote: Yedi

[Elemina]

Ryker:

I want you to answer my questions and respond to anything I have said to you.

SB:

You seem to be tunneling a bit. I'd like a little bit more content from you. Also, read on Blitz and Elie?

[charlie_]

Requesting sub.

Sorry.