Fire Emblem: Genealogy of the Holy War 2017 Tier List - Day 39: The support kids (Corple, Lene, Sharlow and Laylea)

[CappnRob]

Seliph is only going to be leaving everyone in the dust on chapter 6 if you absolutely overload him with stat rings and stuff. Which, yes, sure, Seliph has to be good to win the game because he's the main character, but he doesn't -need- that much sucking up to to be good. I give him Sigurd's silver sword and the elite ring and he's basically golden, he and the Swordtwins have the same move and compliment each other very well. Delmud isn't bad with the right dads and I always pass him down the Silver Blade so he can keep up easily, but without that special attention he's not going to be annihilating anything, and even LESS so for Tristan who starts with only a basic sword and can't even double attack.

I honestly don't see how the swordtwins can fall behind with exp unless you deliberately neglect them. Even without LexDad, they can competantly clean out the arena every chapter for about 3 level ups, they more than deserve their fair share of kills in chapter 6 (unless you're LTCing to get Seliph promoted by the end :Y) so they should stay relatively strong if not great. They're only going to fall behind if you deliberately make an effort NOT to use them, and the only strategies that compliment doing that are ones that basically ignore anyone not named Seliph, Leif, Ares and/or Oifaye, and if you're gonna play the game like that why even bother rating anyone else?

 

My last playthrough's Larcei and Ulster as of right before fighting Julius on the final chapter. Both promoted in chapter 7, both capped by chapter 9's arena (possibly earlier, I don't exactly recall), both more than carried their weight the whole run. Now yes, I play slower and more casually than most, often keeping my mounted units in line with my infantry (or only a space or 2 ahead of them), but these are NOT 1/10 units. They tear face and kick ass, with the only caveat being you have to bring the ass to them to kick, and there's plenty of situations where you don't even have to do that.

And I got everyone to level 30 this run save for Johalva, Delmud, Altena (29), Hannibal, Julia (28), Patty (27), and Lene (20), so I didn't even give these nerds special attention.

[Valkama]

When I say they are falling behind, I'm not saying in level because they can usually stay at a good level purely through Arenas. They fall behind in movement. You don't have to be going at LTC speed for them to fall behind(At LTC speed even mounts can fall behind so when I compare them to Tristan I'm assuming the player is competent but not outright going for a low turn count). You can have them reach more combat by intentionally slowing down but as I said, that doesn't stop units who were already killing everything from no longer being able to kill everything.

If you want to make Tristan good, sell Seliph's brave sword after the first castle in chapter 6, warp Tristan to the castle and buy it. He should have enough to afford it if Seliph used it in the first castle and with his starting gold pool he should be able to keep enough uses on it for it to last the whole map and into the Chapter 7 Arena. Seliph doesn't need that brave sword ever again as he gets another one in chapter 7 and no one else really wants it except maybe Femina if you didn't get Fee so Tristan can probably just keep it for the rest of the game.

[CappnRob]

Unpromoted mounted units have 7-8 movement, and promoted ones have 8-9 movement. The swordtwins have 6 movement, it isn't that hard to keep them up with your cavalry if you just hold them back a space or two every turn. This isn't like Arden who has 5 movement and is hindered by every bloody terrain type in the game except roads. When promotions set in its a bit easier to see why they'd fall behind but that's not until at least chapter 8.

[Valkama]

For chapter 6 you could slow down for them since that map is mostly linear but chapter 7 they really are only going to be good for Darna castle. Yeid is not a place that is favoring foot units and they would also become quite a hindrance in Melgen. They might be able to help a bit at Alster for the small group of mages but otherwise I can't see them doing a whole lot.

[Irysa]

I didn't even have the Leg Ring on Seliph on my first playthrough and Swordtwins still didn't do very much because I was busy letting Seliph kill as many things as possible anyway early on. Like, this is less a case of "they cannot contribute" and more like "if you purposely let them take kills that they are not neccessary for you do not get anywhere close to as good a return as if you just let Seliph kill everything", and the same goes for Leif. The entire pace of the game is dictated by how fast Seliph promotes because you can't carry him around in anyone's saddlebags.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Irysa

[CappnRob]

I just treated Seliph like any other unit and he hit promotion at the start of Chapter 8 with the arenas so eh. Also I think you have Darna and Melgen mixed up as Melgen comes before Darna, Darna doesn't even attack you until after you subdue Melgen and you get pincered by Alster when it happens. In fact Darna is one of the few times I relied on just cavalry to fight so my infantry could focus on the mage sister trio (and also so Ares can be backed up more easily).

Yied is basically just the Shanan show though, lol.

[Yojinbo]

People overrate how many items Celice truly needs in Ch.6 to do his job. The only items that are essential for him are the Elite Band and the Leg Ring [plus the Earth Sword in substitute runs because poor Mana doesn't come with a Libro / Fortify staff] and he has next to no competition for either of them. Everything beyond that is either a bonus that people choose to give him access to because the reward is so insanely high or are LTC-specific requirements that aren't particularly relevant for this discussion.

[ZemZem]

Yeah, the only weapon I really need to have Seliph use in Chapter 6 during my runs is a 50 kill Silver Sword. 

I really don't see how Ulster and Larcei's contributions in Gen II are noteworthy. They just get left behind so easily since Gen II is so geared toward your mounts moving quickly. At least they tear apart arenas with ease and, as someone stated before, can easily reach level 30 with just arena usage. 

Edited February 13, 2017 by Zeems

[CappnRob]

I don't even drop the leg ring on Celice because I have Fee use it so she can rescue villages significantly quicker. Always a pain when you fall 1 or 2 tiles short of attack range against a bandit >:T

[Flee Fleet!]

All Seliph needs is a Silver Sword to fight. And maybe a ring if one prefers to. But Silver Swords in this game are amazing as heck, so Seliph could easily kill someone, or at the very least, steal kills. 

 

Well, that is how I use Seliph.

[Vaximillian]

My leg ring belongs to the dancer.

[CappnRob]

I eventually give the leg ring to Lene but given you don't get her until 3/4 into chapter 7 I let Fee hold onto it for a while, or Arthur because as a mage he has even worse movement than infantry classes.

[Refa]

9 hours ago, Yojinbo said:

People overrate how many items Celice truly needs in Ch.6 to do his job. The only items that are essential for him are the Elite Band and the Leg Ring [plus the Earth Sword in substitute runs because poor Mana doesn't come with a Libro / Fortify staff] and he has next to no competition for either of them. Everything beyond that is either a bonus that people choose to give him access to because the reward is so insanely high or are LTC-specific requirements that aren't particularly relevant for this discussion.

He also needs a sword to ORKO, and while he doesn't need a 1-2 range weapon, I'd rather use Lachke/Skasaher than wait around 20 turns watching Celice try to kill all of the Hand Axe guys.  To be fair, neither of these need to have 50 kills (unless the sword is the Silver Sword).  The rings (Power/Speed/Shield/Knight) just make things more reliable, but he does need the above two.

[Yojinbo]

Celice doesn't need to ORKO everything in Ch.6 unless you're running all-out LTC strats. The only thing that really matters is that he reaches promotion after clearing the Ch.7 arena so even if he fails to ORKO stuff occasionally it's not a big deal. Especially since Delmud or a substitute unit will appreciate a free kill on something that didn't fall prey to Celice's sword.

Then again, a sword to ORKO dudes with is just about the least concerning thing considering that you can easily finish gen 1 with 3 different sword beyond the 50 kills mark [Hero Sword, one of the Magic Swords and Sigurd's old Steel Sword] that you can distribute among Celice, Delmud and Fee. You can easily clear Ch.6 within a reasonable amount of turns - let's say 20 - without needing more than the Leg Ring and the Elite Band and you'll still be able to have Celice promoted in Ch.7.

[General Horace]

Minor nitpick about Tristain, he's absolutely terrible in chapter 6 because he comes with an iron sword and does awful damage to everything.  He's only decent when he actually gets a real weapon.  The swordtwins (and probably the lame subs) are better than him here.

Celice absolutely wants the lightsword+magic ring for the handaxe dudes later in the map.  If you didn't hit 50 kills on it in gen 1, it's like 10 more free kills for it to push it over the top and the handaxe guys are kind of annoying otherwise.  They're also higher levelled than the initial enemies so its more important for Celice to hit level 20 by killing them while he can afford to let some of the earlier dudes slip away for other units.

[Valkama]

You can sell Tristan a half used brave sword after the first castle and he immediately becomes better than them.

[General Horace]

on what enemies tho

 

anyway i'll talk more about tristan on his day

[Valkama]

Yeah probably best to leave Tristan talk until his day but to answer your question; I send him after Johalva's group.

[OliKad]

I will upload and count the votes and results for the Ayra group later today, but for now, let's just say that it's time to talk about our second group of potential gods (with the right pairings): Lester, Lana, Deimne and Mana!

If I don't update them by the 16th at noon (in my timezone, at least) then very violently remind me to stop being a lazy fuck, okay? Thank you :)

[Vaximillian]

 

11 minutes ago, OliKad said:

Mana

(Muirne)

Just why does Lester look so similar to Lex anyway?

[Inference]

I'm going to assume the most advantageous pairing(s) to the unit from here on out, since it wouldn't make any sense to assume a pairing that would render them instantly useless/benched.

I don't have a solid score in my mind for Lana or her substitute, so I'll abstain. Despite her movement, her staff utility isn't by any means negligible, and she's a big help in allowing Seliph to keep momentum during their debut chapter. The same argument could be made for Ced once he's on the table.

Lester, however, is an easy 7/10 from me. Midir dad gives him Brave Bow, which wraps up just about every problem he'd have on player phase. Not even Armor Knights can survive him if the Strength levels are steady. I will abstain on his substitute, having never even seen him before, let alone used him.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Midir is the only choice for Aideen to make good children (mainly Lester).

 

Lana

She's ok to heal your footies like Seliph, Larcei... but has issues to catch up the mounted units. Physic stave can fix it, though. Unlike her mother she'll become a better combat later thanks to Midir's pursuit. So she gets a slightly higher ranking than her mother.

6.5

 

Lester

With brave bow and pursuit he can 1RKO almost everything. Charge makes him even better. He's a really good player phase unit.

7

 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2017 by Magilou

[Yojinbo]

Although Claude!Lana is obviously her best iteration, it's a well-known fact that Lana will always be useful regardless of who her father is - she is the staffbot to end all staffbots. From healing your scrubs over silencing those annoying dark mages and helping people move around over these huge maps a lot faster she can contribute in a lot of ways that make your life easier. Better still, since she will reach promotion very quickly she can participate in the arena starting from about Ch.8 making her almost entirely self-sufficient. I don't think of her quite as highly as Valkama does but she's still an 8.5/10 for me, easily.

Mana of course cannot hold a candle to that. She starts with a heal staff and has no way to make money until Patty / Daisy joins since all of the Villages in this game are completely out of range for her. Staffs that aren't passed down are sold in vendors but the real useful ones only start to sell from Ch.9 onwards and at prices that Mana cannot afford easily. All she can really do is heal but even in that regard she's eclipsed by Nanna / Janne, Leaf and the existence of the Earth Sword. And then there's still Julia / Linda who can use staves while also being able to take part in arena battles to make money of their own ... basially Mana's mostly useless in Ch.6 and 7 and almost completely useless after that until she promotes which I don't even think has a realistic chance to happen before the final chapter. I'll give her a 2.5/10 since substitute units do need healing occasionally in early gen 2.

Lester is almost the complete opposite of Lana - he'll never be entirely convincing regardless of who you pair Aideen up with. For starters, gen 2 is a lot more enemy phase heavy than gen 1 so being bowlocked is naturally a bigger disadvantage for Lester than for Midir. Second, there are like no specific situations where Lester's occasional snipe can really make a difference to speed things up or make things easier, whereas Midir's ability to weaken bosses that Sigurd can't ORKO or his ability to attack over the ledge at Agusty castle is very much appreciated. And third, Magic Swords cover pretty much all of your 2-range needs without forfeiting the ability to attack from 1 range. Since you'll have at least 3 Magic Swords [excluding the Earth Sword] at the beginning of Ch.7 - one of which [if not two] will most certainly have 50 kills or more by that point - and Magic Ring!Oifaye alone  can already ORKO stuff from 2 range reliably, Lester doesn't actually have a whole lot to add to the party at any point even with Jamka or Midir as his father. He gets points from me for his almost perfect availability as well as his abilities to keep up with the frontliners, ORKOing stuff from safe range pretty reliably and serving as a bait. Not a whole he truly adds but I think over the course of 6 chapters it still adds up to about 4/10 for me. Overall I'd say it's better to invest ressources into Lana doing well as screwing over Lester is not a big deal in any way.

By extended logic, Dimna is clearly a loser as he consistently fails to ORKO stuff from 2 range - one of Lester's stronger selling points. Being stuck with an Iron Bow until Ch.8 and having Pursuit as his only skill for his entire life reduces his offensive capabilites to softening up stuff for Tristan in Ch.6 and Ch.7, only becoming somewhat competent at fighting once he gets access to the Killer Bow in the beginning of Ch.9 essentially. He never really becomes a good fighter though with 30% str growth and 20% spd growth [he does have 40% def growth for some reason]. Softening up stuff is somewhat appreciated in substitute runs so I'll be nice and give him 2/10.

[Valkama]

Assuming Claud!Lana she gets a solid 9/10 from me. She starts out as your best support unit and ends as your best support unit. Though rescue and fortify abuse she can promote as early as chapter 7 and start making arena money right away to help pay for her staves. She becomes a great status staffer in the late game which is really good in gen 2. Other versions of Lana are still fantastic but Claud!Lana is where it's at.

Lester isn't quite as bad as I remember him being. With Claud as his dad he's still able to contribute pretty well against mages and has a nice little niche at endgame against the Deadlords. Most of Gen 2 isn't archer friendly so I actually find this Lester to be the most useful out of them because of his Res growth giving him this good niche at endgame. I'll give him a 4/10.

Mana starts out as a significantly worse Aideen and ends as a slightly more useful Aideen which has me average her around where I gave Aideen at a 3/10. The lack of inheritance really hurts her and she's one of the only units in the game that gets hurt so much by it because if staves aren't inherited you can't get them for a while which means her experience gain is shut down significantly and she relies a lot on money dumps from thieves if she wants to be relevant for the endgame. If she does get trained she ends up being a good status staff user but I'd honestly recommend not bothering since Linda and Hawk/Ced exist.

Dimna is trash. Terrible stats in all but bulk for some reason. He has all of Lester's problems with Gen 2 not being archer friendly and none of his benefits. At least he's mounted. 2/10.

Honestly Aideen's subs are so bad you should never not pair her.

Edited February 15, 2017 by Valkama

[CappnRob]

Lana is basically unscrewable as she'll always be at least as good as Aideen was, with the benefit that she can inherit a fuck and a half of C and B rank staffs out the gate (and if you paired Aideen with Claude, A rank ones too), but mobility can be a problem due to magic users having that damn piddly 5 movement. However, she comes on turn 1, most of chapter 6 isn't a cavalry game (and the same goes for chapter 7 too really), and because she can inherit staffs she can come with a LOT of easy ways to cheese EXP: Recover means her magic stat is meaningless for healing, Physic means she can still heal people away from the battle up to 10 spaces, Sleep lets her prevent Slayder from accidentally gooning someone in the face with the Brave Axe, Silence.... she can sell later for a lot of money to someone who can get better use out of it like Sety or Tinny, hurr. Warp, return spam is a good way to grind exp on the side as well, and she can later sell those as well to people who need it/want it. She can also fight, sort of, depending on her dad (Midir and Azel give pursuit, Azel also gives B rank in fire magic upon promotion, Jamuka gives Continue), though this is mostly useful for arenas so she can earn some money. She has a fast love growth with Seliph too if you wanna give the son of Sigurd a lover boost on the battlefield, but I personally find her cuter with Ulster, ech. Anyway, she's basically Aideen but better, with potential for a REALLY strong start and no real "bad" father, and is only held back by relatively low movement. 8/10 unit by far for me.

Muirine though.... is just bad. Aideen but worse, despite the improved availability. No holy blood so her growths are that much worse (Ullr blood might not be the best for mages but everyone can use an HP buff and luck helps with dodging), comes with only a live staff (not even a relive so she can heal large mounts of HP - which in G2, you're going to be seeing more of), and because she can't inherit things, has to buy all the good staffs which you basically don't see until the final third of G2, and by that point there are better characters to dump staffs on. To make things all the more hilarious, she gives JULIA a relive staff, and because Julia can actually fight and has the same staff rank as Muirine, she basically replaces her from there on out. 3/10 because healing is still useful even if you're bad at it.

As for the boys, Lester is sadly one of the most easily screwed characters in G2, further frustrated by the fact some pairs that are great for Lana hurt Lester bad, namely Claude/Aideen. He'll be a magic tank with no skills and no inherited bows, but he can wield a silver bow once you find one. That said, other pairs make him great and because Aideen is good regardless of her father, there's no reason for Lester to fall behind unless you're going for an unorthodox strategy on purpose. With Midir or Jamuka as his dad, Lester can start G2 with access to EVERY BOW - Silver, Heroes, Killer, Steel, and Iron. He gets duel with both dads and has pursuit with Midir and Continue with Jamuka (though pursuit is better), so he's going to be generally peppering the enemy with a ton of arrows/crits/hard hits on the player phase for a ton of damage. He's also mounted, so he can hit and run without putting himself at risk, too. Granted, his class has crummy caps (some of the crummiest, even by mounted class standards), but he isn't meant to be fighting anyone head on. 8/10 for me, he's got huge availability, with the right dad he can nuke anything from safety, Ullr blood means access to every kind of bow, he's generally great for a casual run.

Dimna on the other hand is weird. And bad. He's one of the few substitute characters with pursuit, then wastes it by having a relatively low speed growth. He's basically Midir, but worse because while you have him slightly longer than Midir, he lacks the utility of Midir. Midir shines because G1 needs ranged chip damage to get through fights, where as G2 more than enough characters can hold their own. Midir has duel, so he can sometimes initiate more rounds of combat to better mush or kill someone. Midir can get the killer bow early on, in G2 the killer bow comes late if you don't inherit it. No holy blood means he can't even pack a silver bow before promotion to do huge damage, and his str growth isn't great either so that's not doing him any favors. He comes early at least if with just an iron bow, and Chapter 6 IS axemanland for G2, so he won't have trouble doubling there, but after that.... yeah, Aideen's subs aren't just bad, they're incompetently so. 2/10 because he can still chip at enemies which is sometimes useful and being mounted means he can hit and run and thus fighting isn't an active detriment to his survival.