FE10 Tierlist 2017

[Shadow Mir]

I fail to see how Ranulf manages to be in contention for best non-royal laguz when Janaff and Ulki are leagues above him (and Skrimir as well).

Edited January 4, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Anacybele]

I fail to see how Ranulf manages to be in contention for best non-royal laguz when Janaff and Ulki are leagues above him (and Skrimir as well).

Ranulf has more availability and you're kind of forced to use him too (one map requires both him and Ike to arrive on a couple squares). Admittedly, I never used Janaff or Ulki though, so I can't be sure.

Skrimir may be arguably better anyway though, I kind of forgot about him. I suppose that comment I made was rather premature then...

Edited January 4, 2017 by Anacybele

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Also the most important / best non royal Laguz is Volug I'd say.

Sure, Skrimir can oneround most of the paladins in 4-1, but Volug fulfills more important roles than Skrimir in the game. He keeps the DB alive.

[Shadow Mir]

Also the most important / best non royal Laguz is Volug I'd say.

Sure, Skrimir can oneround most of the paladins in 4-1, but Volug fulfills more important roles than Skrimir in the game. He keeps the DB alive.

I never found Volug all that useful except in part 1, and even then, once you get late in part 1, he's pretty much outlived his usefulness.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

In part 3 is the wall of the DB. He can take two hits by tigers.

And with S-strike he can oneround the cats.

He's the second best of the DB in part 3 after Jill (BK excluded).

Edited January 4, 2017 by Eleanor Hume

[Shadow Mir]

In part 3 is the wall of the DB. He can take two hits by tigers.

And with S-strike he can oneround the cats.

He's the second best of the DB in part 3 after Jill (BK excluded).

I'd much prefer a wall that doesn't need to stand around being useless for 5 turns first.

[ping]

Nah, Volug keeps being awesome as long as you get his Strike up to (S). And since he has a lot to munch on in part 1, that's not unrealistic at all. The other laguz that start as Strike (A) don't really have as much time as Volug to train their Strike rank and they also tend to be less vital to their teams than Volug. I agree with Jules here, Skrimir might have far more endgame potential than any non-royal laguz, but Volug's more valuable for the DB all things considered.

Also - wow, that's a wide contribution on Mia's votes :D Ana, do you really think Mia is a worse unit than Kyza?

€: Missed the last two responses. Olivi grass isn't that contested among the DB, is it? There might be some left from Vika's inventory, you can find one in 1-9 and there are two buyable during part 1.

Edited January 4, 2017 by ping

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

You can buy an olivi grass in 1-8 to prevent this.

It reduces his unusefulness by three turns.

[Anacybele]

Ana, do you really think Mia is a worse unit than Kyza?

Yes. Kyza can at least take some hits since he's a tiger and he's not as weak in the strength stat. Speed isn't as great as people make it out to be and I find it overrated. It's a good stat to have and it helps with evasion, but that still requires some luck and the speedy units tend to be the most fragile. If they're hit, they're hit hard. Mia always died for me when I tried to use her as a result of this (this was also before I decided I disliked her as a character).

Admittedly, I've lost Zihark before in both Tellius games as well. In general, I actually don't like the Myrmidon line much because of how easily they're killed and how lucky you have to get with them in order for them to be good. I prefer the Mercenary line from the GBA games, and if it wasn't for Ike, I'd really wish Tellius had it. But Tellius doesn't have it so Ike can have his unique classes. The only time I've seriously used Myrms and Swordmasters are in Awakening and Fates, honestly, because Lon'qu actually kicks ass and Fates has everybody's favorite crown prince of Hoshido, Ryoma. I do usually use Zihark in my Tellius playthroughs, but not nearly as much as my other often/heavily used units.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Anacybele

[Shadow Mir]

You can buy an olivi grass in 1-8 to prevent this.

It reduces his unusefulness by three turns.

That doesn't really make up for the part where his usefulness is defendent on him being transformed.

Yes. Kyza can at least take some hits since he's a tiger and he's not as weak in the strength stat. Speed isn't as great as people make it out to be and I find it overrated. It's a good stat to have and it helps with evasion, but that still requires some luck and the speedy units tend to be the most fragile. If they're hit, they're hit hard. Mia always died for me when I tried to use her as a result of this (this was also before I decided I disliked her as a character).

Admittedly, I've lost Zihark before in both Tellius games as well. In general, I actually don't like the Myrmidon line much because of how easily they're killed and how lucky you have to get with them in order for them to be good. I prefer the Mercenary line from the GBA games, and if it wasn't for Ike, I'd really wish Tellius had it. But Tellius doesn't have it so Ike can have his unique classes. The only time I've seriously used Myrms and Swordmasters are in Awakening and Fates, honestly, because Lon'qu actually kicks ass and Fates has everybody's favorite crown prince of Hoshido, Ryoma. I do usually use Zihark in my Tellius playthroughs, but not nearly as much as my other often/heavily used units.

Personally, I don't think Swordmasters are all that amazing in Fates, because evade is even more unreliable as a defense relative to most of the prior games. Edited January 4, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[ping]

Yes. Kyza can at least take some hits since he's a tiger and he's not as weak in the strength stat. Speed isn't as great as people make it out to be and I find it overrated. It's a good stat to have and it helps with evasion, but that still requires some luck and the speedy units tend to be the most fragile. If they're hit, they're hit hard. Mia always died for me when I tried to use her as a result of this (this was also before I decided I disliked her as a character).

I don't know, I find doubled damage output quite useful, honestly. And Kyza's base strength is only 3 points higher than Mia which can be easily offset by a forged steel sword. Mia's Def growth is pretty good, too, but I'll admit that she starts out on the frail side.

That doesn't really make up for the part where his usefulness is defendent on him being transformed.

We're just saying that his transformation issues are present, but manageable. And obviously, Volug isn't good because he transforms, but despite his transformation. He needs two turns, but after that he's really strong as long as you watch his gauge (which, again, is a downside, but it doesn't make him as useless as you try to paint him).

[Anacybele]

I don't know, I find doubled damage output quite useful, honestly. And Kyza's base strength is only 3 points higher than Mia which can be easily offset by a forged steel sword. Mia's Def growth is pretty good, too, but I'll admit that she starts out on the frail side.

Yeah, but the thing is, I've never seen Mia kill anything even after doubling. That's how bad her strength was. She also never would gain much strength for me in her level ups. There even came a point in PoR where she would do NO damage to some units unless she used a specialized weapon against certain ones like armorslayers vs heavy knights. That case was probably more bad luck than anything, but still.

I don't consider 45% good for a growth in Tellius when some other growths go over 60 and even sometimes 70.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Anacybele

[Shadow Mir]

We're just saying that his transformation issues are present, but manageable. And obviously, Volug isn't good because he transforms, but despite his transformation. He needs two turns, but after that he's really strong as long as you watch his gauge (which, again, is a downside, but it doesn't make him as useless as you try to paint him).

I'm not trying to say he's useless, but in the face of all the disadvantages laguz inherently have to deal with, I find it very hard to be impressed.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

It depends on the mode you play.

On EM / NM you normally can beat the chapters without him, but in hard mode where the Laguz have up to seven more attack power in part 3, Volug is really appreciated. Not only in combat, but also as support because of having earth-affinity.

I understand that it's bothering that he needs to use olivi grass in the first two turns, but you still have another units who can take a hit by a tiger. Just block the enemies and use healing items till Volug's transformation gauge is full.

[Shadow Mir]

It depends on the mode you play.

On EM / NM you normally can beat the chapters without him, but in hard mode where the Laguz have up to seven more attack power in part 3, Volug is really appreciated. Not only in combat, but also as support because of having earth-affinity.

I understand that it's bothering that he needs to use olivi grass in the first two turns, but you still have another units who can take a hit by a tiger. Just block the enemies and use healing items till Volug's transformation gauge is full.

So he needs S strike AND an Olivi grass, which I generally can't be bothered to buy, to be useful in part 3? That's a bit of a high price of admission just to delay the inevitable. Also, the less I have to say about hard mode, the better. Edited January 4, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[ping]

So he needs S strike AND an Olivi grass, which I generally can't be bothered to buy, to be useful in part 3? That's a bit of a high price of admission just to delay the inevitable. Also, the less I have to say about hard mode, the better.

It really isn't. 1600 gold is not a huge investment. You ignoring the availability of Olivi grass is hardly an argument.

And Volke gains weapon experience by helping to clear out the map. He's not a unit who needs babysitting, so I find it hard to see it as a price of admission to have him chew on enemies. Or do you consider it a price of admission to have Nolan fight? Because surprisingly enough, he isn't that great in part 3 if he's still at base level.

[Shadow Mir]

It really isn't. 1600 gold is not a huge investment. You ignoring the availability of Olivi grass is hardly an argument.

And Volke gains weapon experience by helping to clear out the map. He's not a unit who needs babysitting, so I find it hard to see it as a price of admission to have him chew on enemies. Or do you consider it a price of admission to have Nolan fight? Because surprisingly enough, he isn't that great in part 3 if he's still at base level.

70 attacks in part 1 is a bit much to expect him to get when he starts to fall off in later part 1, in addition to being a sitting duck for anything with range. And I don't see why you mentioned Nolan when he's MUCH quicker to improve than Volug is, to say nothing of not suffering from the boatload of disadvantages that laguz have to deal with. Edited January 4, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Vicious Sal]

I honestly can't take some of these scores seriously anyway.

A 10/10 for Mia, then what is Haar? A unit who has better bases, availability, utility, a mount and better weapons? Canto, rescue, no terrain penalties? Same goes for a 1/10 for herons, after one turn, Reyson can literally double the worth of 4 units on the map. Since there are for units that act twice, it's a non issue to clear out any enemies that might be in range of a Reyson at the semi-front lines, since you just got 4 units that can move again and remove any potential threats.

I understand that this tier list is riddled with Bias, and that isn't a problem, since it was not meant to be a list that removes bias from the equation. But there is positive/negative bias and just over the top positive/negative scores that don't make sense.

[Shadow Mir]

I honestly can't take some of these scores seriously anyway.

A 10/10 for Mia, then what is Haar? A unit who has better bases, availability, utility, a mount and better weapons? Canto, rescue, no terrain penalties? Same goes for a 1/10 for herons, after one turn, Reyson can literally double the worth of 4 units on the map. Since there are for units that act twice, it's a non issue to clear out any enemies that might be in range of a Reyson at the semi-front lines, since you just got 4 units that can move again and remove any potential threats.

I understand that this tier list is riddled with Bias, and that isn't a problem, since it was not meant to be a list that removes bias from the equation. But there is positive/negative bias and just over the top positive/negative scores that don't make sense.

I'm surprised you didn't mention the random 6 that Lyre got.

[Vicious Sal]

I'm surprised you didn't mention the random 6 that Lyre got.

Also a good one to point out.

Also, with my post I'm not saying these scores are bad in themselves, they are however not meant for this tier list. @Ana, I'm gonna use your reyson score as an example here and try to expand on my previous post, just to clarify some more.

Ana's personal score for Reyson is a 1, since she doesn't like using herons. This is fine, they have next to 0 worth for her. However, this is a score based entirely on personal taste.

Another example that illustrates my above point: I don not like bananas (same as Ana not liking to use Reyson), and because of that I never buy them in the store (Ana doesn't use Reyson in game). This means that for my personal taste, bananas get a 1/10 (Reyson 1/10). However, the bananas sold in the store are ripe, yellow, have no blemishes and are in great shape altogether (insert all Reysons perks and advantages such as 4 man vigor and canto). I do not consider myself to be an adequate judge on these bananas since I don't like them myself, never taste them and avoid them altogether, which causes me to no be informed enough to have a good judgement on the actual quality of the bananas (which is why I would not count Ana's vote for Reyson). Her score is spot on for her personal taste, but it's not a good representation, scorewise, of Reyson's actual qualities.

[Radiant head]

yeah I mean kudos to the op for arranging all of this, but I can't really treat these results as remotely credible

[Anacybele]

Thing is, I'd be fine with using herons more often if they weren't so hard to level up and if they weren't so easily killed. Unit refreshing is valuable when things are harder and need more strategy. But when it's a big hassle just to protect the units who are refreshing other units due to not being able to fight and not being able to take hits, they just lose worth to me. I have a hard enough time protecting Reyson in that one chapter of PoR so he can talk to Naesala and make Naesala go away so I can finish the chapter without Naesala threatening everybody.

Yes, I'm aware I can just spam the refreshing to get them exp and level ups, but that is SO tedious.

All of this is why Olivia was such a welcome thing in Awakening to me. She refreshes and can fight and defend herself! She still doesn't have much defense, but at least she can fight and not get killed so easily! And I marry her to Chrom.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Anacybele

[Augestein]

Ugh... Olivia I'd be more fine with if she wasn't home to ambush spawns. I swear, if you didn't just play yesterday and remember the ambush spawns, Olivia is pretty annoying to use honestly.

[Shadow Mir]

Thing is, I'd be fine with using herons more often if they weren't so hard to level up and if they weren't so easily killed. Unit refreshing is valuable when things are harder and need more strategy. But when it's a big hassle just to protect the units who are refreshing other units due to not being able to fight and not being able to take hits, they just lose worth to me. I have a hard enough time protecting Reyson in that one chapter of PoR so he can talk to Naesala and make Naesala go away so I can finish the chapter without Naesala threatening everybody.

Yes, I'm aware I can just spam the refreshing to get them exp and level ups, but that is SO tedious.

All of this is why Olivia was such a welcome thing in Awakening to me. She refreshes and can fight and defend herself! She still doesn't have much defense, but at least she can fight and not get killed so easily! And I marry her to Chrom.

The issue I have with Olivia is that her game is one with ambush spawns. And sure, she might not be completely helpless like Ninian, Tethys, etc. are, but with her bases, she's still an easy kill if she gets attacked, and thus she might be more trouble than she's worth for some chapters (Walhart's first chapter, anyone?). Oh, and she's stuck with swords, meaning she's easy pickings for bows, magic, and throwing weapons. Edited January 5, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Sweet_Basil]

Mia: 7.5

Mia is kind of like Ike except a little weaker and a whole lot faster, but I mean in the sense that they have the same issues. They're sword-locked with inferior 1-2 range for a long while but they're solid all around. I can't tell who is better between her and Zihark because I find myself relying more on him but for endgame I find her easier to train.

Kyza: 3

Kyza doesn't have that moment to shine unlike Mordecai or Muarim and he's not that strong either, but he is more of a growth unit. If you want to raise a tiger he has better speed growth than Mordecai. Sometimes I use him as a filler unit if i'm not using him for combat, but he joins at a time where you have a lot of units to pick from. So unlike say Leonardo there isn't any free maps for Kyza to contribute and I think that's what makes him look like he's terrible, but he's really not the worst.

Lyre: 1

I wish I could say something nice about Lyre but I don't want to be a Liar. She is easily the worst character in this game. The other girls in the lower part of the tier have their time to shine. For example I find Vika to be a good ferry for Rafiel in several maps or a good fighter in the swamp, she won't kill enemies but she always deals a good amount of damage at 1-E. Meg can shove your units, or chip a few enemies in the first few undermanned maps. Astrid can also chip or help you be ferrying Danved. Then there's Fiona who can't really fight at all but she can definitely help you ferry things around or block ledges. However Lyre, like Kyza, doesn't really get any free maps so she's not contributing much. Then there's the fact that she's riddled with more problems too because unlike the other girls (save Vika) she can't get forges and she has to deal with the cat gauge too so if you want to raise her it's going to cost more effort.

Ranulf: 6.5

Ranulf is forced so he gets that free deployment for part 3, but at least he has better bases. In my opinion he isn't as helpful as Volug, because for Volug all the other units that initally outclass him (except for Sothe) disappear:
-Tauroneo gets banned for whatever reason after 1-6
-Nailah comes and goes at her whim
-Muarim, Tormod, and Vika leave after 1-E (I wish they had stayed :()
-The Purple Knight never shows up after Part 1 until that one map where arrives too late for me to care.

-Fiona for some reason is banned in the Swamp map.

So there's more chance for me to depend on him. Ranulf isn't so lucky though :P because Haar never leaves and neither does Titania and then there's the fact that the hawks join your team so Ranulf gets kind of overshadowed. However he can be a very helpful unit even though he's a cat.

Reyson: 8

Reyson is helpful but he's outclassed by Rafiel in my opinion. I kind of see him tied with Leanne although transformed he's easily better.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Sweet_Basil